Various ESB Casts discussion.


intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
First of all... thanks for reassuring me. :D
Any advice on how to behave then?^^
I started lurking here when my MR helmet turned up around 2007. The board had been in full flow for five years by then plus the time of its predecessor. Even so, that means trying to assimilate five years worth of old stuff plus whatever was going on across multiple boards. You're trying to assimilate nearly 20 years worth plus platforms that didn't have a meaningful existence back then. In 2007 Facebook was for seeing how much the people you had gone to school with had swelled and for videos of kittens falling over.

Generally, the code of conduct will see you through most situations. It's the rules that are most open to interpretation that you should pay most attention to; the ones that could be interpreted very broadly. If there is any doubt then there is no doubt.
 

BudaFett

Hi I’m Bobert!
I missed a lot from the weekend's celebrations!

The now infamous post filled in some information that I assumed were but I don't know if we're in a much different place before it was posted. Reminds me "The Room Where It Happens" from Hamilton. Click BOOM. I know there was some incorrect information in that post but that's just how things go.

That being sad, the RS paint master is coming along. I personally think it's lacking some contrast and is a little dull but that's my opinion. It's a great price for what you'll be getting there's no debate there.

I do agree that the community should find a way forward. Those decisions are left to the cargo hold.

I believe personally the following will help:

1) Transparency of any new products being sold.
2) MCR-ESB and RS prop helmet hero to be sold only.
3) Clarification of schilling and recasting so there's no confusion.

For other suggestions:

Regarding MF , recasting and a recent shilling accusation for instance as well as his constant character attacks . I think this needs to stop.

He's lied recently about 2 of his offerings. Be more honest and attacks on his products would end. No one has issues with Animefan having the same molds as Wastedfett or MinuteFett.

TDH is and should always be the benchmark , first point of call for all things Fett / mandolorian including info and products. Other platforms should be considered secondary . There should be No "grey areas" such as it wasn't posted on here so it doesn't count for instance .

I agree. If there's relevant information posted on the FB group about products, product/vendor reviews, it should be allowed to be posted on TDH and visa versa. Too many times relevant information is deleted on the FB group too quickly before the entire community can read it.

Favoured discounts to influence buyers should also be frowned upon, It's unethical imo.

Referrals have been used forever in sales and it seems this may be a jealously issue for other vendors who haven't taken the time to develop relationships. Painters know they're getting items that require far less clean up and prep time before painting hence why there's discounts.
 

Art Andrews

Community Founder
Community Staff
Tbh most of the information was known to most members not in the private message group, the post just validated some areas , some parts were new and came as a huge surprise .

You shouldn't be surprised. Consider the source. There are numerous errors and a few outright lies in the information provided so that the narrative paints a very singular POV.

How do we move on from this ?

We just... move on. I know that sounds simplistic, but as you pointed out, for most, these things aren't revelations but are facts that have been known for years and even have been posted here recently, in this thread.

I will say tho that there seems to have been a "Do as we say not as we do attitude" regarding MF , recasting and a recent shilling accusation for instance as well as his constant character attacks . I think this needs to stop. The vendor clash and it's reason was highlighted in Gino's post and in previous tdh threads . IMO going forward vendors and only the vendor should post their wares. If they want to be taken seriously all products should be posted on TDH including WIPs etc for their peers to see , honesty and transparency are the key. No more here's my new product showing a final finished piece , all prop makers should show progress pictures to validate their products.

This has been an issue going back many years, far beyond this current issue. With the rise of social media, everyone has the opportunity to be their own god and to do things as they want. Sadly, some do it better than others. Your suggestions are great, but inevitably, new sellers will come along who don't share information, only posting their final product. Little can be done about it. In the case of MinuteFett, I have talked to Luis myself several times. I know others have as well. We have tried (on a personal level, not in an admin capacity), to help him understand the culture and what people expect. For reasons I still don't understand he has decided to take an approach to selling his product that opens him up to questions and ridicule. We won't put up with bullying, but in a lot of cases, he has brought hardships on himself due to the obfuscating way in which he presents his product.

TDH is and should always be the benchmark , first point of call for all things Fett / mandolorian including info and products. Other platforms should be considered secondary . There should be No "grey areas" such as it wasn't posted on here so it doesn't count for instance .

I like the idea of this, but it is not tenable. Again, social media has allowed a lot of people to skirt our rules and we simply can't police the world. For instance, we told MF that he could not offer his recast of the MC-ESB here, but we didn't tell him he couldn't offer it anywhere. That would be arrogant and laughable. We don't have control over the whole internet and to pretend we do would be absurd. With that said, from our community guidelines:


4. MEMBER ACCOUNTABILITY
Our Community Guidelines aren’t designed to specifically cover every possible scenario and you alone are responsible for any content or activity associated with your account. Membership at our Communities is a privilege granted by a private organization. It is not a social or legal right. We reserve the right to issue a warning, temporarily or permanently ban/deactivate your account(s) and/or IP addresses, or delete/edit your content if your conduct violates any part of our Community Guidelines or is counterproductive to our interests.

Our failure to enforce any part of the Community Guidelines, for any reason, shall not be construed as a waiver of our right to do so at any time.


Please note that your actions outside the confines of our Communities may affect your membership.

Funkyred , I appreciate your efforts and restraint. We may not entirely agree, but your approach is the kind that ensures the conversation continues. Thank you.
 
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Art Andrews

Community Founder
Community Staff
3) Clarification of schilling and recasting so there's no confusion.

This is a grey area. Always has been and always will be. Everyone wants it to be black and white (including me), but that is simply impossible.

From our Community Guidelines:


3B. Selling/trading of recast items. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by our communities.

Deliberately recasting an active licensee’s product is not supported by our communities.


Before we get into it, let me acknowledge up front that some people will not agree with my interpretation of our rules. Some will see it as self-serving. Some, whose ears are bent by others, may even see it as duplicitous. There is nothing I can do about that, and I don't expect to change your mind. However, the responsibility of governing this community largely falls on my shoulders, and I want to be clear as possible about how I interpret our rules.

We have always allowed recasts that derive from original pieces. It does not mean they are not recasts. They are. They are simply recasts that have been allowed. Historically, if the history is not known, but there is obvious lineage recasts have been allowed. This includes countless variants of the PP2 helmet, the MR helmet, etc. This is sticky at best. Because something could start out with an unknown history and we allow it, then the history becomes known and we realize it breaks one of the two tenants above and we have to take action. That happened recently with both Wasted Fett and Minute Fett.

Some have asked why we allowed the MC-ESB and feel like that breaks the above rules, especially in light of Gino's posting. Again, you may not agree, but here is our take. The Gen1 castings are original lineage castings. They aren't owned by Gino, weren't made by Gino and despite his belief to the contrary Gino has no say over them. They simply passed through his hands to a number of people. How many is unclear. He has not been fully transparent on this point. ANYONE who has a legitimate Gen1 casting could recast it and it would be allowed. However, if you recast someone else's cast of a Gen1, then you fall under the "deliberately recasting another member's creation." This is what happened with the MC-ESB. It was deliberately recast and those molds were sold to Wasted Fett and Minute Fett who did not know the source. When we found out we told them those helmets could not be sold here. Both were disappointed, but both understood. Wasted Fett then went to MC and worked out a deal. This is not the first time we have seen this happen. There have been other instances where a member was unknowingly selling recasts and when they found out, they brokered a deal with the person whom they recast. That is why Wasted Fett's helmet is being allowed to be sold.

I know this probably doesn't bring perfect clarify to the position. As I said, this will always be a grey area and there will always be some level of judgment in our calls. Inevitably some will not agree with those calls. However, we do our very best to be as consistent as possible, despite how it may appear.

With regard to shilling; from our community guidelines:

3A(iii) Members may not shill within any part of our Communities. This includes posting items for sale or coordinating sales for other people or promoting sites, services or products for banned members or known recasters.

While this largely applies to promoting products on behalf of others, it also applies to posting anything on behalf of banned members. We ban members when they break the rules and become a danger to the community. Posting on their behalf allows them to speak from beyond the grave and negates the purpose of the ban. This is pretty straight forward.

If you need further clarification, ask.
 
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Art Andrews

Community Founder
Community Staff
Maybe as a olive branch that helmet should be allowed to be sold as a way of not choosing sides ..

You aren't asking for an olive branch. You are asking us to ignore our own rules.

You are still seeing this as us showing favoritism to one member/group. This is inaccurate.

We stopped BOTH guys from selling. Then Wasted Fett worked out a way to offer his helmets while staying within the guidelines. Minute Fett did not.
 
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Art Andrews

Community Founder
Community Staff
Refraining from posting anything about the actual topic.

I just need to say, that as someone not well established in the community, but the motivation to actually become well established and to put some effort into this, reading trough all of that makes me feel a little ... worried. Especially since lacking actual experience with the people involved, I have even less of a clue what is ok to post and what is not.

As a new member, I am sorry and a bit embarrassed that some of your early experiences are seeing ugliness rear its head. This is an AMAZING community, composed of the most talented and the most knowledgable Fett fans you will ever find. Don't worry about this minor drama. It will pass. With that in mind, if you are concerned about what is expected of any member, please review our community guidelines and feel free to reach out if you have any questions:

 

Historian Fett

Jr Hunter
Thank you, Art Andrews. I'm a newbie who has been perusing the board the past 6 months. Like others I've been both inspired and grateful for the community here, while also being saddened by the vitriol at times. I've also had my head spinning about these casts/molds and TDH rules related to them. Your posts are not only insightful, but they help to set a charitable tone that I hope to follow myself (and wish others would as well). This is an amazing place and we are all blessed on some level to passionately pursue this hobby. And we must remember that especially given other issues in our world today. Thanks for the clarity and the guidance. It is much appreciated.
 

RamSkirata

Hunter
As a new member, I am sorry and a bit embarrassed that some of your early experiences are seeing ugliness rear its head. This is an AMAZING community, composed of the most talented and the most knowledgable Fett fans you will ever find. Don't worry about this minor drama. It will pass. With that in mind, if you are concerned about what is expected of any member, please review our community guidelines and feel free to reach out if you have any questions:

Art Andrews
Thank you for the direct reply. I have worked throug all of the guidelines before all of this even started. Your recent posts on this thread helped me understand how the rules are to be interpreted.

As far as the "first impression" goes, all of this really did cast a shadow not on the forum itself but on all sides active in this ... debate. A litte more shadow on some of them, a little less shadow on some others. But some degree of shadow on all parties involved. This indeed is unfurtunate.

I think it is a good rule in general not to blindly believe everything that any side is saying but too make up ones own mind to construe what might come close to the truth... The truth... what even is that? Every thinking person has his or her own truth, which, seen from their unique perspective, constitutes a truth. Little me sifting through the depth of all of this is a little mind boggeling.

Maybe if I can add anything of value to the debate it would be two things:

1) All of this is way worse because it is happening on the internet, not face-to-face. Reading typed statements opens up the room for interpretation, misunderstanding and all of that. This then spirals downwards...

2) For the actual Fett fan not personally involved in any of this, it is truly a great thing as each little step that caused the current situation played a crucial part in actually making truly remarkable pieces available.

And to close this, I have a request to make...

As I do plan on putting effort into my involvement here, I will take the advice you have given and just try to act like a decent human being, moving on and trying to be helpful on the board, participating in lineage discussions, trying my little best to somewhat make sense of all of this and by creating a graphic here and there passing that sense on to others with the same problems.

If in the course of that, I do happen to do something that violates the rules... Just tell me before it is too late.

Kind regards from Germany,
Ram
 

Sean Hebein

Hunter
As a Fett fan, it has been really exciting to see all of the recent discoveries and then capped off with the Hero helmet has been amazing. Plus, I have a new set of armor and a helmet that from Wasted Fett being painted by Dom right now so that has been really exciting for me! But it has been really sad for me to watch some of the people I look up to go through friendships being ripped apart and all of the other toxicity. I am a member of a few other Star Wars groups and they're cool and have their own idiosyncrasies but there is something about the Fett community that makes it special that none of the others seem to have, at least not for me.

I mostly lurk but I love this community and the passion. Can't wait for all of this to get behind us.

Heart felt thank you to Art Andrews and the rest of the staff for keeping this all together.
 

KaanE

Well-Known Hunter
As promised. Here are some pictures of the left back panel of the Fett helmet I bought. As you can see there are no sanding marks. Some paint details may be removed but definetly there are no sanding scratches as seen before on this thread on another maker helmet. I still believe the helmet masters MF and WF got were sanded individually instead of being casts of an already sanded master.

I have asked a local metal blacksmith to make me one helmet stand with black steel (exactly the same one as the 626AM studios but for 35$, I might make a sales thread once I get my own if there is enough interest). So I'll take better pictures with a DSLR once I get it and I have some time (my first daughter is expected to be born this monday).

Have a nice day!

IMG_20200716_190433.jpg IMG_20200716_190429.jpg
 
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RamSkirata

Hunter
As promised. Here are some pictures of the left back panel of the Fett helmet I bought. As you can see there are no sanding marks. Some paint details may be removed but definetly there are no sanding scratches as seen before on this thread on another maker helmet. I still believe the helmet masters MF and WF got were sanded individually instead of being casts of an already sanded master.

I have asked a local metal blacksmith to make me one helmet stand with black steel (exactly the same one as the 626AM studios but for 35$, I might make a sales thread once I get my own if there is enough interest). So I'll take better pictures with a DSLR once I get it and I have some time (my first daughter is expected to be born this monday).

Have a nice day!

View attachment 194530 View attachment 194532
Thanks for those pictures!
Im looking forward to your DSLR taken ones, not only because of the back panel but also because just a documentation of the G4 helmet as well as because of the helmet stand.
I am going to make a bunch of uniform helmet stands for my living room (so I dont have a mix, but a nice, clean picture), so seeing some detail on your smithed one will be cool.
What is a lot cooler though is that you are going to be a dad!!! (asuming there is no baby boy already, then you already are one. Wouldnt take away any of the awesomeness anyways!!!).
 
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