Wasted Fett Recasting MachineCraft Metal Parts
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MachineCraft
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You just said you didn't have a chamfer on that part. I pointed to the chamfer in your picture.
And yes, you do have a fillet (or radius) in that corner. You didn't draw one, but the machinist who turned these on the lathe used a .008" radius cutting tool to turn them, which is why you have fillets both here (although this radius is closer to .015" on your finished parts) and in the 3 angled slots at the top section. When I get home tonight, I will be happy to put your dart on the optical comparator and show you. Or you could just take a picture of an actual part on your phone and zoom in.
Wasted Fett
Literally Asian
He may have put a slight one in there for ease of that cut. Should we call him out for recasting
Wasted Fett
Literally Asian
Why don’t you just post your drawings like I did?
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
Radius cutting tools are the industry standard for lathe work, which is why there is one there regardless of whether or not you specced it. The only reason the radius isn't the exact same is because you did not know to look for one and/or have the proper equipment to measure it on my part. All evidence suggests you used calipers (and possibly mics) to pull measurements from my pieces.
I'll do you one better. I'll model my drawing and add it to the comparison photo. Then we can compare my drawing to my finished part, and my finished part to your finished part.
Wasted Fett
Literally Asian
please post your drawings
ConvergenceProp
Active Hunter
Why dont you already have a model for the part if its your print that you made? Kinda need the model first to do the print unless you outsourced all the work for it per usual… or if you drafted it all by hand which I personally doubt. Are these actually your designs you reengineered, or others which you’ve been given permission to use?
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
This was one of my original parts. The print was created before I had any working knowledge of or access to CAD software.
Nino, the TDH admins, and I are more than capable of figuring this out without your input, Dana. Thank you.
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
Here is the comparison of the MachineCraft finished part, Wasted Fett finished part, and MachineCraft print. The model on the right is how the actual MachineCraft part (on the left) SHOULD have come out. Nowadays that part would be rejected for being so far out of tolerance. But back then I lacked the proper tools and was too naive to catch this. This particular model has been retired for years now, but this is the part Wasted Fett would have received when he purchased his.
The order from left to right is: MachineCraft (Actual Part Measurements) -> Wasted Fett (Actual Part Measurements) -> MachineCraft (Print)
The order from left to right is: MachineCraft (Actual Part Measurements) -> Wasted Fett (Actual Part Measurements) -> MachineCraft (Print)
Wasted Fett
Literally Asian
Please look at my drawing and the rafalfett drawing. Thank you
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
"Your" drawing is missing some dimensions. I had to infer the OAL, groove depth, top height, and height of the lower section you have hidden. ( I just used the figures from your finished part). I don't see any cues taken from the Rafal Fett templates. There is no rational explanation for how you're within tight tolerances of my part other than you copied it directly.
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
For anyone curious about the optical comparator process and usefulness, this is what it looks like:
Light is beamed across the part and into a series of mirrors onto a large display, and you use the shadow to measure. This unit has a digital readout and edge detection with all sorts of geometric functions to measure angles, radius, distances, etc. Edge detection takes all the guess work out of inputting the points so it makes measuring and drawing a super quick and easy process. I wish I would have invested in one of these YEARS ago.
Oh, and here's the fillet that isn't in your drawing but is in your part, Nino.
Light is beamed across the part and into a series of mirrors onto a large display, and you use the shadow to measure. This unit has a digital readout and edge detection with all sorts of geometric functions to measure angles, radius, distances, etc. Edge detection takes all the guess work out of inputting the points so it makes measuring and drawing a super quick and easy process. I wish I would have invested in one of these YEARS ago.
Oh, and here's the fillet that isn't in your drawing but is in your part, Nino.
intwenothor
Well-Known Hunter
Then why do it in open forum where we can all see it; why not thrash it out in private?
If you did that you wouldn't have to worry about input from Dana, or anyone else.
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
That is a fair question, Andy.
If a ban were to result from this, I would prefer that people see the recast evidence first hand rather than cry foul about a lack of transparency. People will always tell their own story to others, but at least this way the proof is out there for everyone to see.
intwenothor
Well-Known Hunter
I understand, but if you're making it public for that reason then surely you have to put up with Dana, or me, or Dave Smith from down the road, chipping in.
Threads of this nature always attract a lot of attention. It's not even a week old, has over eleven hundred views, despite the fact that there are only three active participants. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of spare time for my hobbies recently, but when you dip a toe in, you're more likely to notice this than a more common build thread. I suppose my point is that had you had the discussion behind closed doors, and the conclusion drawn whichever way, then you either don't need the thread, or you'd get to announce it unchallenged, because the potential ban you speak of would be a fait accompli. Posting it up because you want it public, and then complaining for the same reason, seems a bit much.
Additionally, regardless of any other thing, Dana knows his way around a lathe, so it would always have been probable he'd have a view. The guy did a whole thread on the chamfers of the D bracket tab for God's sake!
This is far from my field of expertise. They look strikingly similar, but not identical. Obviously, they're representing the same thing, so that's always going to occur, especially as they are fairly generic shapes. Surely, once the height and widths are the same everything else will be more or less the same on the back of it?
I think my beacon came from Europe, Italy maybe; Darkside? Does that sound right?
I asked Levi to alter on of his ear models for me a few years ago. I think my input amounted to something along the lines of asking for it to be 4mm wider, and 9mm higher. Came out within a whisper of another ear piece I had.
Threads of this nature always attract a lot of attention. It's not even a week old, has over eleven hundred views, despite the fact that there are only three active participants. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of spare time for my hobbies recently, but when you dip a toe in, you're more likely to notice this than a more common build thread. I suppose my point is that had you had the discussion behind closed doors, and the conclusion drawn whichever way, then you either don't need the thread, or you'd get to announce it unchallenged, because the potential ban you speak of would be a fait accompli. Posting it up because you want it public, and then complaining for the same reason, seems a bit much.
Additionally, regardless of any other thing, Dana knows his way around a lathe, so it would always have been probable he'd have a view. The guy did a whole thread on the chamfers of the D bracket tab for God's sake!
This is far from my field of expertise. They look strikingly similar, but not identical. Obviously, they're representing the same thing, so that's always going to occur, especially as they are fairly generic shapes. Surely, once the height and widths are the same everything else will be more or less the same on the back of it?
I think my beacon came from Europe, Italy maybe; Darkside? Does that sound right?
I asked Levi to alter on of his ear models for me a few years ago. I think my input amounted to something along the lines of asking for it to be 4mm wider, and 9mm higher. Came out within a whisper of another ear piece I had.
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Wasted Fett
Literally Asian
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
I agree - If Dana had some constructive input and wasn't swayed to one side before this conversation even began it would be a totally different thing. However, when those who are uninformed see his feedback and claims to be the end-all be-all of machinist expertise without disclosing his conflicts of interest, that is when there is a problem.
Dana is a sharp guy and I have never said otherwise ( I'd like to reiterate that I have left him completely alone regarding his projects while he's publicly attacked me multiple times now ), but even experts tend to shift their opinion to support whatever side they've chosen to take. Case and point - the WF Beacon and WF Knee Dart are MUCH closer to to the MachineCraft Beacon and V1 Knee dart than my V3 Rocket is to the Elstree Rocket. However, where as he has what he claims to be perfectly rational reasons for why WF's parts are so close to mine, he claims there is no way my Rocket could be as close as it is to the Elstree Rocket without me copying his work.
Important background information that was conveniently left out:
-Dana has, from the start, questioned the origins of my Rocket and has had a chip on his shoulder because I won't give away my sources, when he did not publicly give away the sources for his measurements. I did not question him publicly or otherwise because I don't care what his sources were.
-I tried via multiple avenues to help put Dana's concerns to ease and he did not want to hear it. When I finally asked him publicly on TDH all I received was crickets.
-Dana provided some info on other pieces to Wasted Fett for his venture seemingly in spite for reason(s) above.
All this to say I know having something like this in public has it's own challenges. But it isn't fair to pass off your opinion as an expert without also disclosing your predisposition regarding the parties in question.
If it were maybe 1 or 2 measurements that were this close, that could definitely be the case. But to be closer than the thickness of a sheet of copy paper on every dimension you can measure with calipers is simply not grounded in reality. I feel like that's especially evident when you blow up the images of the comparisons i've modeled. And for that to occur on multiple parts is simply impossible when you take into account hidden dimensions like the overall height of the beacon top, using the exact same threads I used for the beacon, etc.
Fabrizio (Darkside) makes some great things and seems like good guy. He and I never had an interaction and sold things alongside each other in the Cargo Hold for years. As I even said above, I didn't say a word to Nino about his venture and honestly wasn't necessarily mad about it when I found out. But where I draw a very clear line is him stealing my work and passing it off as his own.
To your point on the RafalFett tweaks - if they were as close in length and width to the real ears as some of the tolerances we're talking here (.0254mm - .102mm), that would be an amazing feat. If they were that close in length, width, and every other dimension - that would fall into Divine Intervention territory.
Always appreciate your level-headed approach, Andy.
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MachineCraft
Active Hunter
Yes. I am saying that your actual part is different than your own supposed drawing and lightyears away from the Rafalfett drawing. Although it does look like you grabbed the groove spacing from the Rafalfett template for this screenshot. That is not what is on your actual part though.
I am also saying that the drawing in your screenshot is missing several dimensions that would be needed to complete the model, thus I used the dimensions from your actual part to fill in the gaps. I was under the impression you are an expert on these things now, so I assumed you would understand and be able to follow along with these very clear and basic points - I apologize.
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Wasted Fett
Literally Asian
Dak,
Well they are different and not the same, so we both agree. I don’t know what else you want from me.
How far do people need to not match before they’re not considered a copy of your work? Is there a tolerance for that, something that you would have felt safe?
Well they are different and not the same, so we both agree. I don’t know what else you want from me.
How far do people need to not match before they’re not considered a copy of your work? Is there a tolerance for that, something that you would have felt safe?
MachineCraft
Active Hunter
I don’t want anything from you. I’m confident you will lie regardless of the outcome. Thankfully this isn’t your first or even 2nd recasting offense, you’ve just been smart enough not to sell those things here.
I do not make, interpret, or enforce the rules of this board - The admins do. Looks like that is our next stop.
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