Various ESB Casts discussion.

[KaanE]

No. I made a copy for myself so that I could have one painted. In doing so I also made one for someone I considered a friend at the time. That person or one of their acquaintances sent it to the aforementioned person. That person then made an unknown amount of copies and proceeded to commit fraud and charge people $1800 for a raw helmet. One of those raw helmets or a copy of one was likely the basis for MF's mould. Then that person proceeded to sell a mould to WastedFett.

From an original MC post. The original copy he made for himself could also be from the eFX mould (Gen 1) instead of a new mould from a Gen 1 cast (making it Gen 2)? It's not 100% clear IMO. The diference is if he owns a 1st Gen or just a mould of it.

Also, MC says WF did not get a Gen 3 helmet, but moulds (it could be for a Gen 3 o Gen 4 casts, not clear yet). If that's true, it would change the chart another bit.

 

[intwenothor]

Again, the reason for me starting the thread. If it was just one person selling these it wouldn't be an issue but with four people, plus whoever is in the background, it makes it quite confusing.

With regard to the Minute and Wasteland casts, I cannot see the product that is cleaned up and being sold being any earlier than 5th generation. This is on the assumption that there is only one intermediary between Machine and those two guys.

 

[RamSkirata]

From an original MC post. The original copy he made for himself could also be from the eFX mould (Gen 1) instead of a new mould from a Gen 1 cast (making it Gen 2)? It's not 100% clear IMO. The diference is if he owns a 1st Gen or just a mould of it.

Also, MC says WF did not get a Gen 3 helmet, but moulds (it could be for a Gen 3 o Gen 4 casts, not clear yet). If that's true, it would change the chart another bit.

The question whether MC or WF or MF have itterations of the previous generation helmets or only the molds does not change the chart too much, it would only really change the text... "acquired a cast of..." would change to "acquired a mold....". Thats it pretty much.

It also does not change the nature of what is offered by whom or the desirability. The helmets are what they are and that is pretty well known by now (with some uncertainty of course regarding how many steps in between there were before the leaked whatever (cast or mold) reached WF and MF.

 

[boba87fett]

The strangest flow ever made lol

View attachment 192543

you nailed the arrows lol... you try organizing this thing to fit in a photo book. That’s where the image came from.

 

[BudaFett]

I highly doubt that the recasted helmets are 4th generation casts. I would assume that the earliest generation for those helmets are 5th.

Marking them "Unknown" is probably the best course of action.

 

[KaanE]

I highly doubt that the recasted helmets are 4th generation casts. I would assume that the earliest generation for those helmets are 5th.

Marking them "Unknown" is probably the best course of action.

I highly doubt otherwise, and I'm presenting as much proof as you do (none, BTW)

 

[BudaFett]

I highly doubt otherwise, and I'm presenting as much proof as you do (none, BTW)

Do you own any of the aforementioned helmets? MCR and RS are the only ones with verified helmets.

Now the helmets in question with unverified generations we know are recasted. We know that individual has a history of keeping molds for himself and selling later generations to unsuspecting customers. Hell, he lied when selling this exact helmet. We also know that when the recasted helmet first went public on TDH it was claimed to be a 3D scan and then a 2nd generation when it was called out. We know by the existence of the MCR and RS that was now a lie. So now we're at LEAST at a 3rd Generation helmet before it gets sold. Then the helmets that are being cleaned up become removed by another generation we're easy at 4/5.

 

[Strider]

I second the "4th Gen" theory as well:

MC: Has 1st Gen out of the EFX mold. Makes a mold gives 2nd Gen cast to "Voldemoort".
Voldemoort: Makes mold from 2nd Gen cast and gives 3rd Gen Casts to WF and MF.
WF/MF: Make one unaltered mold from 3rd Gen cast to make 4th Gen unaltered castings as well as a mold with sanitized helmets that are 5th Gen.

Unknowns:

- Did "Voldemoort" give castings or molds to MF/WF? (I would put my money on casts)
- Has there been another yet unknown player in the game after Voldemoort? (I wouldn' think so as Voldemoort seemed to try to reap as much financial gains as possible and thus I'd suspect he approached WF/MF directly).

 

[KaanE]

That's exactly what I said/think. The cleaned versions are 5th, but the raw ones are 4th. The master casts used by WF and MF were 3rd. Budda says the raw ones are, at best, 5th gen, which I don't think so.

And no. I do not own any helmet yet. And again, it's all my opinion, not facts, but as valid as any other unless proof is presented.

 

[MachineCraft]

You make it sound like I am a witless infant. Had this been explained in these terms before there would be no confusion. I have tried to follow these events I do not think an explanation as plain as this had previously been given but thank you for now doing so.

So, to clarify; do you have a first generation cast? Or, is your earliest reference the mould that produces the second generation casts, which of course would have to have come from a first generation cast?
Again, the way your response is worded allows for an inference. The inference being that you are producing casts from a mould of someone else's helmet.

I think it's pretty clear that the most desirable cast will be the ones that are closest to the source, which would be your second generation casts and the second generation casts of RS.

For simplicity's sake:

I had or have a 1st Gen Cast.

I used that cast to produce the mould for the ESB-MC, making it's pulls 2nd Generation. That mould is what I am using to produce the ESB-MC that is listed for sale, making those helmets 2nd Gen castings. This is literally the exact same situation as RS. One of the early castings from this mould is what made it out and was recast an unknown number of times before it made it to public offerings.


Whether or not that cast is still in my possession, and who I received the cast from are both answers I have submit to the TDH Admins to validate, which they did (otherwise my post would have been removed). Does that help out a bit?

 

[intwenothor]

If I'm the only one reading about the involvement of Voldemort who is laughing then there is something wrong with the world!

 

[BudaFett]

If I'm the only one reading about the involvement of Voldemort who is laughing then there is something wrong with the world!

Oh I'm laughing and if people think he sold the earliest available generation horcrux and didn't keep that for himself...well...then.

 

[MachineCraft]

I second the "4th Gen" theory as well:

MC: Has 1st Gen out of the EFX mold. Makes a mold gives 2nd Gen cast to "Voldemoort".
Voldemoort: Makes mold from 2nd Gen cast and gives 3rd Gen Casts to WF and MF.
WF/MF: Make one unaltered mold from 3rd Gen cast to make 4th Gen unaltered castings as well as a mold with sanitized helmets that are 5th Gen.

Unknowns:

- Did "Voldemoort" give castings or molds to MF/WF? (I would put my money on casts)
- Has there been another yet unknown player in the game after Voldemoort? (I wouldn' think so as Voldemoort seemed to try to reap as much financial gains as possible and thus I'd suspect he approached WF/MF directly).

This is accurate to the extent of my knowledge other than one thing. I did not directly send the casting to voldemort. The person I sent it to, or one of their close friends was the one who orchestrated having it recast by 'Voldemort'. And funny as it may seem I much rather look silly and say 'Voldemort' than give the other individual any mention

 

[intwenothor]

For simplicity's sake:

I had or have a 1st Gen Cast.

I used that cast to produce the mould for the ESB-MC, making it's pulls 2nd Generation. That mould is what I am using to produce the ESB-MC that is listed for sale, making those helmets 2nd Gen castings. This is literally the exact same situation as RS. One of the early castings from this mould is what made it out and was recast an unknown number of times before it made it to public offerings.


Whether or not that cast is still in my possession, and who I received the cast from are both answers I have submit to the TDH Admins to validate, which they did (otherwise my post would have been removed). Does that help out a bit?

Yes, it does. Thank you for clarifying. I am genuinely just trying to understand the history here, which is in a similar vein to posts I have made in the Fett Helmet history thread.

What seems obvious to you is less obvious to those of us who are operating with less information.

The murk seems mostly to concern the later recasts of your material. I expect that most of us will never know what happened there, only that you have given Wasteland the nod, which is entirely you prerogative.

The potential of two offering 2nd gen casts is amazing for Fett fans. The added bonus that these offerings are in different continents also means that far fewer people will be striped up with customs costs!

 

[MachineCraft]

Yes, it does. Thank you for clarifying. I am genuinely just trying to understand the history here, which is in a similar vein to posts I have made in the Fett Helmet history thread.

What seems obvious to you is less obvious to those of us who are operating with less information.

This is very true. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh and/or brash. There is nothing wrong with asking questions to clarify, but I do find something wrong with spitballing guesses and carrying them as fact as others seem to want to do. That results in people getting their names dragged through the mud, and that isn't fair to anyone.

The murk seems mostly to concern the later recasts of your material. I expect that most of us will never know what happened there, only that you have given Wasteland the nod, which is entirely you prerogative.

The potential of two offering 2nd gen casts is amazing for Fett fans. The added bonus that these offerings are in different continents also means that far fewer people will be striped up with customs costs!

Where that individual is concerned there is literally no telling. It is never information that we will know, and even if he did answer to it, we would likely not get remotely close to the truth. I think the best idea is to consider the raw helmets 4th Gen+ and the cleaned up 5th Gen+ as boba87fett has already done in his graphic.

I completely agree on the potential of both of the 2nd Gen casts. I have no doubt RS will make an excellent helmet as well. I briefly spoke with Rob and he is a very nice guy. Given that my business falls more on the metal side things I am completely open to help them provide an avenue for Metal Ears for their customers if they decide they'd like to discuss it.

 

[KaanE]

Thank you to all of you! We need to update the Fett history helmet chart!

 

[RamSkirata]

Ok... I will go through everything that has happened since one more time thoroughly my time tomorrow and update the esb lineage chart as best I can to also better reflect what is known and what is only speculation. Does anyone know if WF and MF have xth gen casts or only molds from xth gen casts? Or maybe the two would be willing to confirm?

 

[KaanE]

MF has a raw cast. This is the picture he posted on FB/IG before moulding.

 

[intwenothor]

As a pedant, may I point out that the image being used in that flowchart for the G0 post ESB helmet appears to be from the Allinger book, which was when; 2016? I don't have my copy to hand.

So that would make it post Force Awakens or something. In any event it was certainly after the 2012 moulding of the helmet.
I might be wrong, and it might have been 2015 or even 2014, but you take my point.

 

[RafalFett]

Andy, you are correct!
Here's the correct ESB helmet chronology: