The Mandalorian Boba helmet derived from Sideshow bust? If so, what changes - Discussion

[RafalFett]

This was a fun one to catch up on! I've been away from TDH for a bit so I'm behind the times. Are we _complaining_ about having access to casts from a production mold now? Is that a thing? Seems a bit weird to me

The problem is not that these are publicly available, but it's the lack of communication. I remember the times when a new build or acquisition was exhibited with lots of information and images (like the MSH, the MF or the GMH helmets, not to mention armor parts or jetpack builds), but now everything is resumed to money and monopoly.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

It makes sense that communication is light... I mean, no-one wants the information out there as to how one gets a hold of a Legacy mold. That would probably bring a lot of heat on the person who got it and the person who let it out of the shop. Seems best to leave that stuff unsaid

 

[stormtrooperguy]

But having said that... As I think more about it, I also get the sort of degradation in community spirit that comes from it. It sort of becomes more transactional, rather than research / observation / community building.

 

[Funkyred]

But having said that... As I think more about it, I also get the sort of degradation in community spirit that comes from it. It sort of becomes more transactional, rather than research / observation / community building.

I am more interested in the morality of the issue, Theft isn't something thats covered in the code of conduct ? Does the forum approve of theft ? By acknowledging this helmet the TDH will be validating its accusision . This isn't a buck or mold legitimately bought from the prop store or eBay etc , from what we know so far is that it seems to have been stolen with the intent of making somebody a lot of money.

 

[Mythos Fenn]

This was a fun one to catch up on! I've been away from TDH for a bit so I'm behind the times. Are we _complaining_ about having access to casts from a production mold now? Is that a thing? Seems a bit weird to me

I dont know if it was complaing haha but more of a will the Mouse start to crack down on all of us if it was acquired by potentialy questionable means - since its currently a secret as to how it got out of the prop makers hands to begin with ha

 

[stormtrooperguy]

I am more interested in the morality of the issue, Theft isn't something thats covered in the code of conduct ? Does the forum approve of theft ? By acknowledging this helmet the TDH will be validating its accusision . This isn't a buck or mold legitimately bought from the prop store or eBay etc , from what we know so far is that it seems to have been stolen with the intent of making somebody a lot of money.

I've always found the notion of morality in this hobby suspect at best anyway. To me it's always felt more about preserving market share / profitability than anything else.

I'm not completely devoid of personal context in all this. I've been mostly out of the armor-maker-biz for a while now but I used to be pretty active. I've sold hundreds of helmets, suits of full armor, blasters, etc... Every now and then I'll still pop off a run of Fett armor or some sort of helmet or something if I get the free time and inclination.

Back in the old days I had a 100% open recasting policy. Anyone could recast me, sell my stuff for profit, undercut me, whatever. There are still folks that sell my clone kits that aren't me. Now I do all my creating via 3d modeling and have the same policy. I know there are vendors on etsy you can get stormtrooperguy gauntlets from, and I get nothing from it. When they ask I say "have at it", when they don't I just smirk.

The reason for all of that is that I have always thought it was silly for me to assert my ownership over something that I don't own. I have no right to make any of this stuff, and no moral high ground to stand on just because I copied something the hard way by sculpting with clay instead of the easy way of 3d scanning or dipping in silicone.

The way I think of it, where a person gets a mold is their business. If they want to talk about the lineage, awesome. If someone cares about the lineage they can choose to buy or not buy accordingly. I don't think anyone should be expected to share anything more than they want.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

I dont know if it was complaing haha but more of a will the Mouse start to crack down on all of us if it was acquired by potentialy questionable means - since its currently a secret as to how it got out of the prop makers hands to begin with ha

Personally I'd say we as a community look better by not having that conversation at all.

These helmets aren't being sold here, right? If someone from Legacy slipped the mold out, that person would likely lose their career over it. If someone stole it, that would be a crime and Legacy could press charges. None of that seems to be without our responsibility here to manage.

I'm pretty confident that the license holders of the Star Wars IP track all this pretty closely, and don't need us being watchdogs for them.

 

[BudaFett]

This will be my last post regarding this helmet. I don't know how it was acquired I only saw a posting and to RafalFett's point the announcement wasn't made here and that clearly has hurt feelings for lack of inclusion if you're not on other forms of social media. I highly doubt this helmet will be offered in the community moving forward or if it is there will be blacklisting of certain people.

To be very direct there are individuals here are upset with the decision to ban MinuteFett and have used any cast suspected of being from the Sideshow bust as an excuse to have other members banned here as well. Those same members have no issue using TDH Code of Conduct, UK Copy Right Laws, and now Morality interchangeably depending on the situation. When MinuteFett was lying about the origins of multiple of his helmets (Mandalorian 3D scan with "lineage"/GMH scan/ROTJ lineage of a reworked ESB Hero) everyone was gleefully excited and didn't need to ask any questions. TDH wasn't even the first Forum/Facebook group to ban him. I agree that there should have been more transparency to his banning but the word was spoken from Administration and there’s not much I can do about that. People disagreed and there’s other forums where he if free to do whatever he wants.
Now with the rise of 3D modeling and printing, shows using vendors for props, etc it’s probably a good time to discuss what recasting is in 2020 moving forward. I’m all for that because more transparency, clearer rules and equal application isn’t a bad thing.

 

[RamSkirata]

I find it a bit irritating that this somehow morphed into "minutefett" debate again. lol

Very interesting take, stormtrooperguy and rather refreshing!

I second the point that problably a revisit of recasting guidelines updated to modern technology and the hobby developing should be in order. But I am definatly not qualified to be part pf that discussion.

A thought on the morality of it all... (obviously not a legal standpoint as I am in no way qualified to have a legal opinon on those matter)

We shant forget, that the Star Wars Franchise as a whole benefits massively from costume groups and prop guys providing those costumes. Its part of what kept the franchise even alive over those long years. All those troopers and creators spending their money on and making oftentimes unlicensed props and their freetime on troops benefits the franchise owners business interests in a way that in my estimation outweighs the direct monetary benefit that were to be had from strictly controlling any and all props.

Also we shouldnt kid ourselves... Even though 1000s of dollars of prop stuff seems big to us, its little more then nothing compared to the money thats in normal toys. Additionally, the level of detail sought out by strange people like us is hardly attainable in a big business context.

 

[SolarFett]

I don’t pretend to know half as much as you gents know on the subject, but I think there’s a big difference, morally speaking, between someone who directly recasts a licensed, 2020 product and sells it for profit, versus someone who takes their time to skillfully replicate a 3D design to the best of their ability, prints it, and casts it to sell. To me, one seems to be a direct reproduction, the other is more like a skilled craftsman trying their best to make a realistic replication of the piece.
That being said, I’ve never been a lineage snob, I’ve always just cared about getting a bucket that looks faithful to the source material, so I can’t speak for those on the forum that truly care about direct lineage. Different strokes for different folks.
As far as Lucasfilm and the Mouse...I really do think that they support the fans insomuch that we’re not directly stealing their product designs. If prop makers want to reproduce something on their own either by means of 3D sculpting or otherwise, I don’t think they have a problem with it.

Just my 2 cents...take with a grain of salt. I’m just a simple man, trying to make his way in the universe

 

[BudaFett]

I find it a bit irritating that this somehow morphed into "minutefett" debate again. lol

It was mentioned, not directly in the thread. He was a habitual line stepper and people are still defending his actions to this day.

I don’t pretend to know half as much as you gents know on the subject, but I think there’s a big difference, morally speaking, between someone who directly recasts a licensed, 2020 product and sells it for profit, versus someone who takes their time to skillfully replicate a 3D design to the best of their ability, prints it, and casts it to sell. To me, one seems to be a direct reproduction, the other is more like a skilled craftsman trying their best to make a realistic replication of the piece.

I agree with 3D modeling and printing. It's when you scan a licensed prop or a prop you don't have Right to and sell it that's where the problem comes up.

It also seems that in order to get 501st approval for Death Watch once the CRLs are released you MUST have a helmet that is from the Legacy helmet. So where does that put any cosplayer or member of the community in terms of recasting this piece? Do we move away from the standards that were copy and pasted from COC? Do we just sent it over to the UK to be recasted and sold State Side? It's a conversation we need to have.

 

[KaanE]

Why does it have to be a Legacy helmet for the 501st standards? That makes no sense. You do not have to wear a lineage Boba Fett helmet to get your BH number as long as it looks accurate, I think. I do not know anything about the 501st.

 

[BudaFett]

Why does it have to be a Legacy helmet for the 501st standards? That makes no sense. You do not have to wear a lineage Boba Fett helmet to get your BH number as long as it looks accurate, I think. I do not know anything about the 501st.

CRLs for Boba are older than the general public's access to the Hero is what I would assume the reasoning is.

I know the CRL isn't finalized but from what I've seen a legacy derived helmet will be required for basic approval.

 

[Gilmortar]

I agree with 3D modeling and printing. It's when you scan a licensed prop or a prop you don't have Right to and sell it that's where the problem comes up.

What about purchasing a cast that was STRICTLY not supposed to be sold or given out frankly, and molding it, then creating a cleaned up version and selling it and the original casted versions?

This is the lack of morality that plagues this board. TDH has become this place where "FORGET THE RULES BECAUSE WE GOT A CAST DIRECTLY OFF THE REAL THING, even though we know no one was supposed to have access to this this way"...

Do you remember back in 2010 when MR released the ESB helmet? No one waited for MR to close the doors before throwing it in silicone. WHY? Because the people here who could afford the $1000 helmet bought it, and sent it to people they knew could 1: fix the pinch, and 2: make good castings TO OFFER TO THE COMMUNITY FOR NOT $1000. It was looked at as "modifying their product to be better for the community".

So where is the difference here? I want to hear what the consensus on what the difference is when we let every one and their dog cast the MR Helmet but one maker (which albeit, I am setting aside the whole GMH part as well) scanned an EFX Din Helmet and was banned. We have 3 different makers now that sell castings of a casting that NEVER should have been in their hands. So please, where does the line actually get drawn?

 

[BudaFett]

What about purchasing a cast that was STRICTLY not supposed to be sold or given out frankly, and molding it, then creating a cleaned up version and selling it and the original casted versions?

I'm assuming you're referencing the Fugly since you won't come out and say it. MachineCraft gave Wasted Fett permission to sell it on the boards. MachineCraft and RS Props are the only ones allowed to sell unaltered heroes. With Dakota's blessing the Fugly is allowed here. I can't speak to the unaltered hero.

Do you remember back in 2010 when MR released the ESB helmet? No one waited for MR to close the doors before throwing it in silicone. WHY? Because the people here who could afford the $1000 helmet bought it, and sent it to people they knew could 1: fix the pinch, and 2: make good castings TO OFFER TO THE COMMUNITY FOR NOT $1000. It was looked at as "modifying their product to be better for the community".

You know what the price was going to be?

but one maker (which albeit, I am setting aside the whole GMH part as well) scanned an EFX Din Helmet and was banned.

MinuteFett wasn't banned for scanning the eFx Mandalorian helmet. He wasn't banned for selling his ROTJ derived from the ESB hero (after he was told not to) either. You're more than welcome to reach out and find out for yourself why he was banned. I don't believe it's a secret considering Scott Kaufmann has answered it multiple times. If you have evidence that could over turn the ban, as Scott has said previously, share it.

We have 3 different makers now that sell castings of a casting that NEVER should have been in their hands. So please, where does the line actually get drawn?

The line on the Hero was drawn. @Art commented on it multiple times. I don't understand the confusion there.


I am all for having the conversation regarding the Sideshow Bust and how to proceed with Death Watch/Fett helmets moving forward.

 

[stormtrooperguy]

Why does it have to be a Legacy helmet for the 501st standards? That makes no sense. You do not have to wear a lineage Boba Fett helmet to get your BH number as long as it looks accurate, I think. I do not know anything about the 501st.

I no longer serve in a role in the 501st. I have previously served there as Legion Membership Officer multiple times, totaling 5-6 years of overall work. In that role I had the final say on whether or not any given CRL was approved. So, I speak from experience with the CRL process but do not speak as a representative of the Legion today.

Disclaimers aside: They would not be likely to require a specific helmet, so much as specific features of the helmet. Dent size, small turn signals, elongated range finder side earcap, etc... If a fan were to sculpt a helmet that had all of those features, the lineage of the helmet is unlikely to be relevant.

The 501st generally speaking does not care much about the origin of a suit. You can get approved with a recast anything, so long as it looks good. So from a Legion perspective they wouldn't really care if you bought a Sideshow bust and molded the helmet. They would just care that the end costume is accurate.

I don’t pretend to know half as much as you gents know on the subject, but I think there’s a big difference, morally speaking, between someone who directly recasts a licensed, 2020 product and sells it for profit, versus someone who takes their time to skillfully replicate a 3D design to the best of their ability, prints it, and casts it to sell.

From a Disney/LFL (and their licensees) perspective both situations you describe are unauthorized copies. That's why this fuzzy notion of morality gets so tricky.

Sculpting your own has more artistic integrity for sure.

The idea of building policy around artistic integrity is, I think, fundamentally flawed. It is a sliding scale of immorality where both ends of the spectrum still fall into the "immoral" category to the outside world.

I am all for having the conversation regarding the Sideshow Bust and how to proceed with Death Watch/Fett helmets moving forward.

I think the helmets are a fact of life now. There are several makers offering them off-board, which draws people away from TDH as a resource (I have purchased one of said kits myself!). Banning them from being here only serves to weaken the site IMO.

Once upon a time, TDH was _the_ community to go for all things T-visored. I took a few years off because my role in the 501st sort of precluded me from weighing in on a lot of things for fear of biasing my decisions there.

Now that I'm free of Legion dealings I have come back to find that there seems to be more arguing about rights and lineage and preferred vendors than there is community building / shared research and crafting.

Take this conversation -- instead of all of us putting our time into nailing the colors and patterns of New Boba's weathering, we are debating whether or not people should be allowed to sell production accurate New Boba helmets. I'm finding more info about New Deathwatch on facebook and instagram than here. To me that's a long more interesting than how X person got their molds.

 

[Gilmortar]

Take this conversation -- instead of all of us putting our time into nailing the colors and patterns of New Boba's weathering, we are debating whether or not people should be allowed to sell production accurate New Boba helmets. I'm finding more info about New Deathwatch on facebook and instagram than here. To me that's a long more interesting than how X person got their molds.

This to the absolute T.

 

[RamSkirata]

I no longer serve in a role in the 501st. I have previously served there as Legion Membership Officer multiple times, totaling 5-6 years of overall work. In that role I had the final say on whether or not any given CRL was approved. So, I speak from experience with the CRL process but do not speak as a representative of the Legion today.

Disclaimers aside: They would not be likely to require a specific helmet, so much as specific features of the helmet. Dent size, small turn signals, elongated range finder side earcap, etc... If a fan were to sculpt a helmet that had all of those features, the lineage of the helmet is unlikely to be relevant.

The 501st generally speaking does not care much about the origin of a suit. You can get approved with a recast anything, so long as it looks good. So from a Legion perspective they wouldn't really care if you bought a Sideshow bust and molded the helmet. They would just care that the end costume is accurate.




From a Disney/LFL (and their licensees) perspective both situations you describe are unauthorized copies. That's why this fuzzy notion of morality gets so tricky.

Sculpting your own has more artistic integrity for sure.

The idea of building policy around artistic integrity is, I think, fundamentally flawed. It is a sliding scale of immorality where both ends of the spectrum still fall into the "immoral" category to the outside world.




I think the helmets are a fact of life now. There are several makers offering them off-board, which draws people away from TDH as a resource (I have purchased one of said kits myself!). Banning them from being here only serves to weaken the site IMO.

Once upon a time, TDH was _the_ community to go for all things T-visored. I took a few years off because my role in the 501st sort of precluded me from weighing in on a lot of things for fear of biasing my decisions there.

Now that I'm free of Legion dealings I have come back to find that there seems to be more arguing about rights and lineage and preferred vendors than there is community building / shared research and crafting.

Take this conversation -- instead of all of us putting our time into nailing the colors and patterns of New Boba's weathering, we are debating whether or not people should be allowed to sell production accurate New Boba helmets. I'm finding more info about New Deathwatch on facebook and instagram than here. To me that's a long more interesting than how X person got their molds.

This is a striking analysis of the situationen - This thread is the very best example. I started it to learn more about the helmet. 4 pages deep into the thread and I barely know anything. Weeks after the new suit was debuet, there is barely any info about it on TDH. And what made its way here came from a facebook group. This is sad.

Im not quite there yet, but in case I loose all hope that there will be any meaningful costume discussion about the post sarlacc Boba here... Can someone point me towards those facebook and Instagram sites that contain so much more info?

 

[SolarFett]

To be fair...there are at least 2 other threads that are discussing post sarlacc Boba...The title of this thread kinda opened it up to the discussion that's taken place. Just sayin.

 

[RamSkirata]

To be fair...there are at least 2 other threads that are discussing post sarlacc Boba...The title of this thread kinda opened it up to the discussion that's taken place. Just sayin.

... I follow those other threads as well and unfortunately they mostly consist of "I like this new look" and "Its horrible" along with the reasons for those sentiments. obviously I am slightly exaggregating but there really is hardly objective talk about the costume itself here.