Blaster EE3 Vintage scopes and scope ring types

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
I've changed my mind, after many hours of looking I have come to believe the scope on the ESB Hero weapon is a type 2 (with plastic eyepiece) and have updated and editted to reflect this. I simply had not genuinely looked in enough depth before as I had taken it as established fact but there are so many pictures where the definition of the angles is so well defined that it makes the type 1 unsuitable.
 

lonepigeon

Active Hunter
I agree. The ESB scope appears to be a type 2. I can also confirm that the ROTJ Hero blaster has a type 2 scope as well. The thickness of the eyepiece confirms it.

Can you confirm that the type 2 ASI text reads "A.S.I." while the type 1 reads just "A.S.I" (no period after the I)?
This seems to hold true from the scopes I've seen.
If so, I think I can safely say the the ASI scope used on the Rexim-Favor blasters in Alien were also type 2's. This is significant because those props were also made by Bapty.
 
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intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
I agree. The ESB scope appears to be a type 2. I can also confirm that the ROTJ Hero blaster has a type 2 scope as well. The thickness of the eyepiece confirms it.

Can you confirm that the type 2 ASI text reads "A.S.I." while the type 1 reads just "A.S.I" (no period after the I)?
This seems to hold true from the scopes I've seen.
If so, I think I can safely say the the ASI scope used on the Rexim-Favor blasters in Alien were also type 2's. This is significant because those props were also made by Bapty.


Chris, I was always unsure about the ROTJ hero but I think you are right and I am in agreement, that is also a type 2 scope. I have observed that these type 2 scopes are significantly rarer than the type 1 scopes. This now also makes type 3 scopes more desirable than before due to the plastic eyepiece. The locking ring is easily swapped out and the objective bell is negligible.

As for the ASI brand marking, there are no differences that I can see: both are labelled "A.S.I.", I believe this has been the case on all ASI that I have identified or owned. The only brand for which I have seen variations in brand marking is the Sussex Armoury 4x20. I have seen three different types of brand marking on these. If you have detailed pictures of the Alien prop I would love to take a look. I have seen some pictures and as mentioned in the OP the scope has a type D mount. I have only ever found original ASI with type D mounts. I didn't include my opinion on this in the OP due to it's subjectivity but...............

My (purely, absolutely subjective) opinion is that it is unlikely that the scope used is the ASI as I find it unlikely the prop maker would have bothered to faff about changing the mounts. Ditto for the Sussex, only ever seen those with type C mounts in original condition (although this might make it a likely candidate for the basis of the ROTJ stunt). Difficult to speculate on the Jason due to the lack of information but if it is the brand of a US firm it makes it even less likely. The one pictured in the gallery appears to have either type A or B rings but whether they were original is unknown to me. My money is on the Milbro or Hunter due to the fact that they show up with original type A rings and as the Milbro is more common I'd say the chances are that it is one of those, that's for the ESB at least. Not sure with the ROTJ as I am unsure where it was made and who by. Was that Bapty too?


I had deliberately not displayed brand marking before because people are (needlessly in my opinion) obsessed with the ASI but in light of your post I have updated the OP with pictures of the different eyepiece and brand marking types. I have also posted pictures of original boxes too. I have used the best quality images I have available but as you will see some are not great. If anyone has a better quality picture where I have used a poor one then I'd be grateful if you could supply one and I will update accordingly.

Regardless of all this People should be aware that Chris and I are talking about fractions of degrees, mere millimetres (if that) and that I stand by my original comment in the OP that it would be unwise to pass up any given scope type at a reasonable price for a different scope type at an unreasonable price i.e. don't pay £100 for a type 2 if you can get a type 1 or 3 for £30 (or pay more for an ASI than any other brand). They are so similar that it is barely noticable, It still takes me some time to tell them apart when handling them and when I posted my updates and edits of brand marking above I had to re-edit the post because I had labelled the types incorrectly!

Of course this now means that my Type 2 Hunter is top pf my list: A hunter for a hunter:)

Original post edited and updated with new pictures and information regarding scope types (particularly the type 2) has been clarified. I habe not included my opinion on brand used in OP due to subjectivity.

Keep living the dream.

Andy
 
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lonepigeon

Active Hunter
As for the ASI brand marking, there are no differences that I can see: both are labelled "A.S.I.", I believe this has been the case on all ASI that I have identified or owned. The only brand for which I have seen variations in brand marking is the Sussex Armoury 4x20. I have seen three different types of brand marking on these. If you have detailed pictures of the Alien prop I would love to take a look. I have seen some pictures and as mentioned in the OP the scope has a type D mount. I have only ever found original ASI with type D mounts. I didn't include my opinion on this in the OP due to it's subjectivity but...............

There is definitely an ASI brand marking variation.
Both of my Type 1 ASI's lack the period after the "I" and it's not wear. The letter spacing is actually different. The "I" is centered directly over the "0" in 4x20. One of them is in like new condition. I will post pictures later.
My best condition Type 1 and 2 ASI's both came with type D mounts. You're probably correct that would make the ASI's less likely to be the scopes originally used on the Fett blasters.

Here's the Alien blaster with a closeup of the scope brand markings.
IMGP8995.jpg

IMGP8996.jpg

From the collection of Bob Burns. Photos by Moffeaton from the RPF

My purely (absolutely subjective) opinion is that it is unlikely that the scope used is the ASI as I find it unlikely the prop maker would have bothered to faff about changing the mounts. Ditto for the Sussex, only ever seen those with type C mounts in original condition. Difficult to speculate on the Jason due to the lack of information but if it is the brand of a US firm it makes it even less likely. The one pictured in the gallery appears to have either type A or B rings but whether they were original is unknown to me. My money is on the Milbro or Hunter due to the fact that they show up with original type A rings and as the Milbro is more common I'd say the chances are that it is one of those, that's for the ESB at least. Not sure with the ROTJ as I am unsure where it was made and who by. Was that Bapty too?

I had never seen a Milbro until this thread. My Hunter and Rhino are both Type 3's.
You're in the right country of origin though so you probably know best.
I'm not sure if Bapty was involved in the ROTJ rifle. I'm guessing not. It might be ILM's work.

I had deliberately not displayed brand marking before because people are (needlessly in my opinion) obsessed with the ASI but in light of your post I have updated the OP with pictures of the different eyepiece and brand marking types. I have also posted pictures of original boxes too. I have used the best quality images I have available but as you will see some are not great. If anyone has a better quality picture where I have used a poor one then I'd be grateful if you could supply one and I will update accordingly.

I agree that people need not be hung up on the ASI brand. It was merely the first correct scope to be found. There's no proof which brand was used and we may never know. The scope is painted flat black so any type 2 would look identical.
I've seen incorrect versions of the ASI go for a lot of money on eBay.
Everyone should read this first post and know what to look for.

I will post a pic of the Rhino branding later so you can add it to the OP.
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
There is definitely an ASI brand marking variation.
Both of my Type 1 ASI's lack the period after the "I" and it's not wear. The letter spacing is actually different. The "I" is centered directly over the "0" in 4x20. One of them is in like new condition. I will post pictures later.
My best condition Type 1 and 2 ASI's both came with type D mounts. You're probably correct that would make the ASI's less likely to be the scopes originally used on the Fett blasters.

Hmmm, be interested to see that. Just checked all my old pictures of the different ASI I've identified and I have yet to see the markings you describe so I'd be interested to see pictures. I have seen the ASI with completely different markings on inaccuracte models that include but may not be limited too:

The letter 'Y' in an equilateral triangle, the letter 'E' in a vertical diamond/rhombus and the letter 'S' in a circle. The last one appears closest overall to our boy isn't really that close. The others are way off.

Here's the Alien blaster with a closeup of the scope brand markings.
IMGP8995.jpg

IMGP8996.jpg

From the collection of Bob Burns. Photos by Moffeaton from the RPF

Not sure which type that is but looks more type 1 to me but I could well be wrong. They're so hard to tell apart without holding them:facepalm

I had never seen a Milbro until this thread. My Hunter and Rhino are both Type 3's.
You're in the right country of origin though so you probably know best.
I doubt that!:) It's probably not really the most emperical way of assessing the situation but I do think that these two types are more likely than the ASI purely due to the type D mounts as mentioned and that they only seem to come with the correct rings. Did your Rhino and Hunter come with type A (or B) rings?

I agree that people need not be hung up on the ASI brand. It was merely the first correct scope to be found. There's no proof which brand was used and we may never know. The scope is painted flat black so any type 2 would look identical.
Indeed, in reality it doesn't really make any difference as they all look the same, it's just the ASI have become far more expensive because of the name and the amount of exposure, the Sussex seems to be consistently the cheapest. Secondly I have encountered far fewer of these type 2s than type 1s. They really are very rare!

I'm not sure if Bapty was involved in the ROTJ rifle. I'm guessing not. It might be ILM's work.
If that be the case then it could make the Jason (if it is a US brand) more likely. Of course the scope from the original prop might have made it's way onto the ROTJ prop. One thing that makes me shy away from the Jason for the ROTJ Hero is that when one closely examines the eyepiece from the pictures in the gallery it is not possible to make out any part of the logo. Given that there is a fair amount of weathering chipped off in the pictures and taking into consideration the comparitively large size of the Jason Logo (from the picture in the gallery and the comparison of the 4x32 above) it seems to me that if that were the brand used that you'd be able to see at least part of the logo, it's very big. In any event I'd love to see one in person but the brand itself is very rare, let alone this model.

I will post a pic of the Rhino branding later so you can add it to the OP.
Please do, I would be very happy to see this scope, You mentioned in an earlier post that this might be a Milbro sub brand, is that correct, can you expand?.
 

lonepigeon

Active Hunter
Here are the new photos I promised...

My Type 3 Rhino scope:
rhino_type3full.jpg

Eyepiece detail:
rhino_type3.jpg


I was initially thinking Rhino might be related to Milbro because my early searches for info kept turning up Rhino air pellets made by Milbro. I've since seen other Rhino scopes of various sizes and styles and they seem to be their own company in the UK.

And the A.S.I type variant:
asi_type1variant.jpg

Note there is no period after the "I". The whole top line is centered differently than the version with the period.
I have two Type 1's like this.
For comparison here is the Type 2 with the full "A.S.I." marking on the Alien gun:
IMGP8996.jpg
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
Ooh, shockproof.(y)

Edit: I've updated the OP with Chris' photo's. That ASI variant has the same sheen and finish as the Sussex Armouy Type 1(b) variant that I posted. I would expect that they were part of the same batch or of the same time period.

Not seen any of the other brands marked as shockproof before. Interesting. It looks to be in very good condition. Those scope rings look brand new. They look to be the tall feet, can you confirm?
 
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lonepigeon

Active Hunter
Ooh, shockproof.(y)

Edit: I've updated the OP with Chris' photo's. That ASI variant has the same sheen and finish as the Sussex Armouy Type 1(b) variant that I posted. I would expect that they were part of the same batch or of the same time period.

Not seen any of the other brands marked as shockproof before. Interesting. It looks to be in very good condition. Those scope rings look brand new. They look to be the tall feet, can you confirm?

Yes, they are the tall feet and in pretty nice condition. The screws on the scope feet and knob base are a little rusty, but overall it's in great shape.
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
Cheers Chris.

Factual update on Jason Brand scopes. Op Edited.


"Jason scopes are in fact Jason/Empire formerly of Kansas City Missouri. It appears they stopped trading circa 1985 and may have been bought out or taken over by Bushnell (unconfirmed). The only definite information I have been able to find thus far is on a line of scopes that this company imported (probably from Japan but not confirmed) between 1969 and 1971. The scope we are interested in is not contained in the list of scopes I have found for those dates. As this is now confirmed as an American brand no doubt I will have great difficulty acquiring one so if any of us are going to see this model it will most likely be someone in North America. This company seems primarily to have been concerned in the sale of Binoculars, spotting scopes and telescopes all of which were (apparently) imported from Japan. The search continues."

Live dream.

Andy
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
Just when I thought I was out!

outback-in.jpg


I really thought I was done with this thread (pending the elusive Jason) but I became intrigued by Lonepigeon's post 18/26 revelation of the Rhino scope and so set to looking for one. As luck would have it one turned up almost instantly on eBay UK so I put a bid or two in. From the auction picture I thought I was bidding on a Type 2 as it was plain the eyepiece was plastic and that the objective bell was as per types 1 and 2. However when it turned up (I won with a whopping bid of £5.15) I saw straight away that it was something different and if I think types 1 to 3 are different enough to merit their own types then this must be different enought to be another one: welcome type 4.(y).

A Rhino 4x20 Scope Type 4 plastic eyepiece
Type4rhino_zpse1231cec.jpg


The Type 4 shares in common feature from both both types 2 (and 1 as they are the same but for the eyepiece) and type 3 as well as a new feature of it's own. The objective bell is as per types 1 and 2 and has the larger lip. It can also be unscrewed whereas we know that type 3 cannot. The tube, saddle, elevation and windage screws et al are the same as they are on all previous types. The locking ring is as per the type 3 with the longer and deeper grooves. The eyepiece is plastic as per the type 2 and 3 but there is an addition of a ring added to the extremity of the ocular section that makes this eyepiece longer than the other two plastic types. The ring does not seem to unscrew (or I am not prepared to try hard enough to make it/break it) and is fixed in situ. I have checked my other type 2 scopes and it is not the case that they are missing something that this type 4 has present; there is no placement on those scopes for this section to be added. This is something I have not seen before. Apart from the extra ring the eyepiece is otherwise identical in terms of dimensions, angle and taper.

In the following pictures the ASI is the type 2, the Milbro the 3 and the Rhino the 4.

A full comparison of types 2, 3 and 4
type234compwhole_zpsaf83874b.jpg


A comparison of Plastic eyepieces
tpy234eyepiececomp_zpsd4bce1a1.jpg

Both Rhino and Milbro with incorrect locking ring.

Closeup of type 2 and 4 Plastic eyepiece ends
type24ring_zps6f4ca760.jpg


Eyepieces removed to show height (length) difference
type24height_zps2da00e1a.jpg


So, there we have it; another type of variant on this model of vintage 4x20 telescopic sight. I'd say that in terms of production dates that this probably came after the type 2 and before the type 3 so in reality the type 3 should be the type 4 and this should be the type 3 but that would cause unnecessary confusion and a heck of a lot of editing so rather than over complicate things I'll leave things alone :facepalm. OP edited with new model. There are other edits to the OP that I have made recently without bumping, I considered them too trivial to merit bringing this back to the top whereas I think this merits it. So far as I can remember I posted original instructions for both ASI and Milbro scopes and a poster for the Rhino brand with a model shown top left (model 204) that would be similar to our favourite son. In actual fact it is not identical to our boy but appears to me to bear more than a passing resemblance to the Original Model 7 4x20 telescopic sight. Not to digress too much but please accept that the scan is not as clear as the original but I'd say that the Rhino model 204 pictured in the poster and the Original Model 7 4 x 20 were absolutely 100% identical. I'm no expert on the Model 7 but I know enough to know that certain models of it were used on other props (Evazan and the Bowcaster - Maybe?) so anyone looking for one of those should consider the Rhino 204 as well.

Must.
Get.
Out.
More.

Andy.
 
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intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
Er...............Yeah so here we are again. I know this is an old thread but was really surprised by this. I had continued occasionally looking at these scopes in order to try and track down a Jason, the last of the six known branded scopes that I hadn't seen. Unfortunately I still haven't found a Jason but I stumbled across another in my search; a Webley and Scott 4x20 vintage scope with correct infinity symbol. This is the first and only time I ever seen one of these and I have never seen or heard of anyone else referring to it so I'm guessing this is the first time most of us have seen it. This one came as a type 2 with a type C mount. An exceptionally rare scope.

I had seen plenty of Webley 4x15 scopes with the infinity symbol in the past and so always wondered why no 4x20 version but as I now know it exists it raises another question. As ASI and Milbro both do 4x15 infinity symbol models (and 4x20 versions of course) it makes me wonder about other brands. At least two other brands: KASSNAR & 'World Famous' definitely do a 4x15 infinity symbol scope that is identical to the ASI, Milbro and Webley (4x15) versions I have seen so they may both do a correct 4x20 too! How many of these are there????

In any event my money is still on the Hunter.

Webley and Scott 4x20 Type 2 Scope plastic eyepiece
Webleytype2_zpsd6dc2899.jpg


Webleytype2eyepiece_zpsb77c69c9.jpg




EDIT 04/10/2013:

For some reason I can't update the original post so I've added the latest update here.

A new variation of the Sussex armoury. All of the other different brand markings I'd seen more than once but this is something I'd never seen before. It's a Type 2 plastic eyepiece scope (came with a C mount as per ALL Sussex just as ALL ASI scopes come with type D). If the picture is unclear then let me clarify that the code number is 1620 (no idea) and the animal is the head of a Jackal (the unofficial symbol of Sussex Armoury). The Infinity symbol is on the reverse and also pictured.

Andy

Sussex Armoury type 2(b) Plastic Eyepiece with Jackal's head
IMG_0722_zps35308e67.jpg


IMG_0723_zps92b3058a.jpg
 
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intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
Sigh, another brand but still not found a Jason yet. Of interest to those of you in the Americas is the fact that I have now seen the sister 4x15 infinity scope made by Crosman (picture in OP) so those of you over there looking for a scope should consider paying closer attention to older Crosman scopes; it's probably out there and it will probably be easier to buy an old US brand in the US than an old British brand in the US. Good luck!

OP updated.

Andy

Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) 4x20 Scope

The BSA is a late discovery and the one pictured represents the only time I have seen the correct scope made by BSA. This particular one was sold on ebay in February 2014. I did place a small bid on it but did not win the auction as I wasn't prepared to bid high; the reason being that the particular scope sold has a rail fitted to it. I have seen several brands with rails fitted, most notably on the ASI, but I am unsure if the rails are factory or owner fitted. I do think the rail gives a better attachment than the receiver ring types of most interest to Fett fans as do one piece mounts used by some other brands e.g. The Sussex Armoury. The rings we are most interested in are actually pretty rubbish for the intended purpose and often work themselves loose.

These are pictures from ebay so are not the best quality but better than nothing. The brand marks on this scope have been partially rubbed off but the remains of the infinity symbol can be seen just to the right of the 'N' of the partially removed 'JAPAN'. I have circled it in red for ease of identification; there is no red circle on the actual scope. This particular model appears to be of the Type 3 variety but it is difficult to say for certain without holding it or having a better photo to view. Be careful with the BSA brand; I have seen another BSA 4x20 bearing identical marking with correct infinity symbol that is not the correct scope (eyepiece too short, windage/elevation/saddle completely incorrect and back to front, wrong tube ratios and incorrect bell).

More info on BSA here. After a government bailout in '73 they were eventually sold to Gamo/El Gamo in '86.
Birmingham Small Arms Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A BSA 4x20 type 3 scope.
BSA4x20_zps58d23bc3.jpg


BSA Scope with rail fitted.
BSA4x20no2_zps7f8fdca8.jpg

 

bcurtis

Active Hunter
Hey Andy, I PM'd you with the photos of the Milbro I just received. It appears to be a type 2.
 
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intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
It is indeed meaning that alongside the Hunter brand I would consider Milbro to be a very strong candidate for the brand used on the original props. Great score for $17 (or whatever paltry sum you paid for it). Sweet!

milbrotype2_zps1e7f9498.jpg
 

bcurtis

Active Hunter
I had a Universal at one time. The tube diameter was too large on mine though. I think it was around 1" or something. What are the dimensions of your scope (length and tube diameter)?
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
It's an interesting looking scope but doesn't look to be a match to our boy on the face of it but it might well pass; the conical dust caps are a help I think in making the scope look a lot more accurate. The flat top ones give themselves away pretty much straight away even if the rest of the scope looks pretty close as most modern 4x20s do.

On another subject I have managed a small advance in my research of the elusive Jason scope. The below scope typifies much of the research I have done on these scopes - I bought it knowing exactly what it was and that it wasn't what I was really looking for but I thought it might expand my knowledge of this model and the Jason brand that little bit more. It is essentially the 4x15 version of the EE3 scope and the same as the other known 4x15 clones in this line such as the ASI, Crosman, Hunter, Kassnar, Milbro, Relum, Webley and Scott, and World Famous (although mounts vary on these brands as they do on the 4x20s). The important thing with this one was that it was 'New Old stock' and came with the original box and some original Bumpf. It cost me around £25.

Jason Empire Sportsman Riflescope Model 862C 4x15 (type 2 plastic) with Original Box and type C Mount.
IMG_1039_zpsb0478962.jpg

Reverse of box does state 'Japan'.

Eyepiece Closeup. There are no infinity symbol or 'made in Japan' markings.
IMG_1040_zpsecb22fba.jpg


Inside material (and reverse where present).
JasonBumpf_zps3938d96f.jpg

Bumpfreverse_zps97055630.jpg

For those outside the US, as I am, it would seem that Curt Gowdy was a famous sports commentator and that this is a straight up marketing deal: Corrections welcome, I had to look him up.


Live the dream.

Andy


 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
and another...

I'm afraid I cannot find any information on this brand for much the same reasons as I couldn't with the Hunter brand but there it is; it definitely exists as we can see. This looks like a type three scope to my eyes. Never heard of this brand before in any capacity whatsoever let alone in relation to this particular model of scope.

Panorama 4x20 Rifles Scope with Type C mount


panorama1_zps69dca343.jpg


here's the eyepiece closeup. Never seen the TJK marking before so it may be a clue as to the source brand if anyone knows

panorama3_zps082e37b6.jpg
 
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