Blaster EE3 Vintage scopes and scope ring types

intwenothor

Active Hunter
Scopes, Scopes, Scopes.

Once you've battled through the main post there is no new information until post 38 onwards. Everything of note between post 1 and 38 was edited into the first post.


Firstly let me say that there is nothing new or groundbreaking to be revealed here, this is merely a one stop shop for my scope research; whilst some of the information here I truly found for myself I do not claim to be the originating source for any of it in the broader context and indeed most of it is based on the work others have done. So far as I can ascertain RPF user 'Lordsandy' (Jim?) first identified the first match with the ASI in 2002. Whilst I was not on the scene then I'm going to guess he made his comparison using a pool of images significantly inferior to those we have widely available today. Subsequent research and brands are effectively based around looking for ASI scopes and their clones and with the exceptions of the Webley 4x20 and the BSA I believe most of these brands have been mentioned before. That is not to say the ASI is the correct scope brand but it was the first brand identified.

This post represents a considerable amount of time, money, research, and re research. I have tried to make it as straightforward to follow as possible. I have written it this way to place all the information in one place at one time. The original post has been edited and re edited many, many times as new info or better pictures came to light. It's a long post in order to place all the available research in one place.

These vintage scopes were made in the Japan. The models of interest to us all feature the strange infinity type symbol. This symbol is very important: some of the brands referred to make 4x20 scopes that feature different symbols and they are inaccurate (take note if hunting for the ASI - see below) however it must also be pointed out that not every 70s period 4x20 scope that feature this symbol is necessarily correct. Most of the time a 4x20 bearing this will be correct but not every time.

The infinity symbol

Infinity_zps7547227b.jpg


The scope is a 4x20 specification. 4 is the number of times the image is magnified and 20 is the diameter in millimetres of the objective lens. The size of the objective lens effectively controls the amount of light that enters the scope and controls the quality of the image and the conditions the scope may be used in. The bigger the objective lens, the more light and better quality image and so forth. A 4x20 is an entry level scope and whilst the Japanese built optics are of reasonable quality they are by no means exceptional. This is the case for modern 4x20 as well; there is apparently not much point in making 4x20 of exceptional quality due to the limitations of dimensions. Most serious shooters seem to have at least a 4x32. A 4x20 would generally be attached to a 'plinker', a low powered air rifle for use in back gardens to be used shooting at tin cans, just for fun.

In these next two pictures see a period ASI 4x32 Deluxe (that features the same infinity symbol) both in close up and next to both ASI and Hunter Brand scopes with their original mounts. There is no doubt that the 4x32 is a thing of quality and the 4x20s are not!

ASI 4x32 Deluxe Closeup

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4x32 and 4x20 comparison

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A vintage EE3 4x20 Scope.

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The retaining ring in the objective bell loosened:

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From left the right the parts are:

The eyepiece, which contains the ocular lens.

The locking ring to lock the eyepiece in place, if looking at a scope has a variable zoom (which this isn't) then a ring in this position may sometimes be called the power ring and is used to adjust the magnification of the image. As a sidenote: The greater the magnification the greater the vibration i.e. if you magnify the image by a factor of 10 then you magnify any movement by the same factor. Essentially this means that the greater the magnification the more important it is that the scope is held steady. Minor vibrations caused by human movement can greatly affect the steadiness of the image when it has been magnified many times (such as breathing or even pulse/heartbeat).

The tube. This isn’t just a tube, inside there are various lenses and apertures to turn the image back up the right way and display the reticule.

The windage and elevation screws. The screws assist in fine tuning the scope to compensate for wind and elevation i.e. left to right/up and down. Sometimes these are referred to as ‘turrets’. The block on which they sit is sometimes called ‘The saddle’. The screw on caps are merely to protect the screws from dirt and grime. The fit of the caps should be true and they should screw on and off with ease. If they seem exceptionally tight or loose then they are most likely not the correct caps for the scope or they have been mistreated and are threaded.

The Objective bell, which contains the objective lens. There should be an additional (retention) ring that screws in the end of the objective bell that locks the objective lens into place and prevents movement or damage.

The Types of Scope:

There are four (and a half) scope types that are suitable for use. For ease they are referred to as types 1, 2, 2.5, 3 and 4. Remember that any scope by type is identical in the characteristics and only the brand markings differ. In this section I have deliberately taken the pictures in such a way that the brand markings cannot be seen in order to labour the point somewhat. A Type 1 scope is a type 1 scope, a type 2 is a type 2 and so on.

Type 1 Features (from left to right).
The eyepiece is metal and I have frequently found in type 1’s that the ring that holds in the ocular lens sits slightly proud of the eyepiece, types 2 & 3 feature this ring but it tends to sit flush and not proud. This may be due to difference of material used and the fact that metal expands or contracts dependent on temperature. I use the word frequently as I have found type 1’s where this ring does not sit proud. The tube is metal. The windage and elevation screws sit in a plastic saddle. The dust caps are plastic and have a conical roof. The Phillips head screws that mount the unit in place have high domed rounded heads. The objective bell is metal and it can be unscrewed from the tube. It has a small has a small lip where it meets the tube so the taper does not run direct to the tube. When the scope rings are attached and in position it is almost impossible to see this lip. The end of the bell has a holding ring that screws into the end. Based on my findings it would appear that type 1 is most likely the earliest of these made and that production ceased no later than 1978. Type 1 scopes are by far the most common that I have found and outstrip the other models by at least five or six to one.

A Type 1 Scope:

Type1_zps853f30a7.jpg


Type 2 Features (from left to right).

With the exception of the eyepiece the scope is identical to the type 1. The difference in the eyepiece is that it is plastic. The eyepiece is slightly wider or fatter overall and is approximately 2mm wider where the eyepiece meets the eye. The angles and tapers of the eyepiece are sharper and better defined on the type 2 over the type 1. The plastic has a more reflective finish than the metal and so the definition and taper are easy to detect so long as a strong light source is present but not a camera flash, that tends to obliterate the difference and I have used a flash in the close ups in order to demonstrate this. In soft light or dim light the sheen tends not to betray these differences and so making it very difficult to distinguish type 2 from type 1. The comparison of three types is daylight only and thus the difference is easy to detect. It becomes easier to tell a type 2 eyepiece from a type 1 eyepiece if one touches them as the metal of the type 1 usually betrays itself by being colder to the touch. Type 2 would appear to have been produced later than type 1 as it uses cheaper materials and probably were in production up to 1980. I believe that the Type 2 is used on the ESB hero prop. The link to the gallery picture below demonstrates this very well (as do many others in the gallery). The definition of the angles on the branded eyepiece of a type 1 scope simply do not ever look this sharp. I have spent hours poring over the gallery pictures of the ROTJ hero weapon as well trying to recreate the angles of many of the shots using both type 1 and type 2 scopes and having given lots of consideration and taking Lonepigeon's opinion into account (see later posts) I think it highly likely that they ROTJ Hero prop has a type 2 as well but I cannot be certain abd that's partly because of the weathering and partly because of the soft lighting make it very difficult to distinguish the tell tale angles on that plastic eyepiece. I can also add that I am of the opinion that the scope on the hero prop is a real scope, this is because where the paint 'weathering' has chipped and flaked away the black underneath is exactly consistent with the appearance of a real scope. The main body of the hero weapon is be a cast but not the scope. The ROTJ stunt scope and rings apparently are all casts based on my observations of other gallery pictures. Type 2 scopes are far rarer than type 1s.

See comparison section for 'Type 2.5'.

The scope in this picture is definitely a Type 2. No question.
Boba Fett Empire Strikes Back Costume - Executor Bridge BTS - The Dented Helmet Gallery

A Type 2 Scope:

Type2_zps99306989.jpg


Eyepiece Comparison between type 1 & 2. Note the ring on the ocular lens doesn't sit flush on the type 1 (left).

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Type 3 Features (from left to right).

Features largely as per type 1 except that the eyepiece is plastic as per type 2. The locking ring is slightly different to types 1 and 2 in that the grooved section is longer and the grooves themselves are both broader and deeper. The tube and screws are the same. The bell is dimensionally different. There is a lip where the bell meets the tube but it is less pronounced than types 1 and 2 but when the scope rings are attached in the correct position it is next to impossible to identify this. The tapered section of the bell is longer than the types 1 and 2. The diameter of the bell at the end is the same for the type 3 as the 1 and 2 and again the end of the bell has a holding ring that screws into the end of the objective assembly. The objective bell cannot be unscrewed. The desirability of the Type 3 scope for accuracy is still pretty good, the locking ring is easily swapped out for an accurate one (can be found on many different scopes but most 4x15 of this period have suitable rings) and whilst the objective bell is off it will be it will be almost almost impossible to spot on the assembled prop with the rings in place. It is my belief that this type of scope was produced no later than 1981 or 1982.

A Type 3 Scope:

Type3_zps68101599.jpg


Type 4 Features (from left to right)

I did not discover this until long after the original post and I believe type 4 will have come after type 2 but before type 3 in terms of production dates so in reality this should probably be the type 3 and the type 3 the type 4:confused however I didn't discover this variant until long after type 3 so I'd have to do a lot of editing as well as trying to change peoples usage of now generally accepted terms and create unnecessary confusion. Late 70/very early 80s I'd say. Anyway, the eyepiece is plastic as per types 2 and 3 but has an additional ring added to the utmost end that adds an extra 2 millimetres or so. Apart from this extra length the shape, angles and taper of the eyepiece are otherwise unchanged from the type 2 and 3 plastic eyepieces. The locking ring is the same as the type 3 with the longer and deeper grooves. The rest of the scope (tube, saddle, windage and elevation screws and objective bell) is the same as one would find on the type 1 and 2 scopes.

A Type 4 Scope:

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Comparisons

In this section I'll introduce the 'Type 2.5', a relatively late discovery and so called as it sits pretty firmly betwixt the type 2 and the type 3. I have not troubled to show a full length shot but in this section shall attempt to demonstrate the subtle differences in the following few shots. The parts from left to right are: A plastic eyepiece as per type 2 and type 3, the thicker locking ring on types 3 and 4 and an objective bell that sits slightly in the middle of the types 1 (2 & 4) and type 3 in terms of shape. The objective bell of the type 2.5 DOES unscrew.

A comparison of the difference in the locking ring of the type 1 & 2 and the type 2.5, 3 (&4). Type 2.5 / 3 and 4 are on the right. It would easy to swap this out for a locking ring from any one of a number of other (accurate) scopes to bring it in line with the others if it really bothered you that much. Pretty much every 4x15 from this period has the correct locking ring and the 4x15s are generally pretty cheap. Sorry - old photo:

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Objective Bell comparison. Types 1, 2 (&4) on left, type 2.5 in the middle and type 3 on right.

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On the left is type 1, middle is 2.5 and right is 3. The type 1 scope the taper runs straight to the extra lip or stage that meets the tube. The 2.5 bows out slightly on the taper before the lip is reached and this is bowing is more exagerated on the 3. In the following shot I have added some lines to try to demonstrate. The bowing on the ype 2.5 is very subtle; you wouldn't notice it unless you were looking or if the different locking ring didn't show it to be something slightly different in the first place.

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Another shot from a different angle to use the reflected light in order to show where the subtle bowing occurs. On the two circled scopes it is possible to see the extra distortion due to the shape differences.

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A few of comparison shots of the differences in the eyepieces to demonstrate the extra ring and length of the type 4.

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I really can't stress enough just how similar all four (and a half) models/variants are. Even though I have been looking at these in some depth for some time if I spread a variety of these scopes before me on a table with the branding obscured then I need some moments at close proximity to tell them apart. Once weathered and mounted to your prop replica with the receiver rings in place so that they obscure the slight tell tale sign that allows one to differentiate the type 3, due to the smaller lip, it really is going to take an extremely close examination to tell them apart by someone who really understands each one well. Any of these model variations is an excellent choice for your prop and I wouldn't recommend pay £100 for a type 2 instead of £30 for a type 1 or 3 etc.

Types 1, 2, 3 and 4compared:

IMG_0574_zps18a05f74.jpg

Laid out ESB styley. 1 top, then 2 etc.

Scope rings and mounts.

Type A – The hero rings.

These are the receiver rings as used on the hero props for both ESB and ROTJ. As we all know the key issue here is the size of the tabs that are attached to the rings. These are generally referred to as the ‘Tall feet’. The general perception is that these are hard to find and I must resolutely disagree. They are not hard to find and they need not be expensive either (see below).

Type A:

Typea_zps0669fa11.jpg


Type B – Hero rings with short feet.

These are the same receiver rings as the hero rings but the tabs that affix to the rings are shorter. These are commonly referred to as the ‘Short feet’. The perception is that these are far more common than the tall feet variety. My experience is contrary to this but if these are all you can find then they are an extremely good alternative. I suppose it’s possible that I didn’t find so many of these as they weren’t what I was looking for.

Type B:

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Types A & B Compared. There isn't a great deal of difference making type B quite suitable:

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Type C – ROTJ Stunt rings.

This comes as a single piece mount that needs to be cut into two and a long section removed from the middle in order to be properly made into the stunt rings. I think that these are a great idea for the ROTJ guys who can’t find the Hero rings; you can use these rings and still have an accurate representation of a screen used piece. To remove the middle section I used a vice and a hacksaw.

Type C:

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A modified type C:

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Type D – No use to anyone!

Only referenced and shown as relevant to a certain model, the ASI.

Type D:

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Lastly a couple of comparison shots of mounted ring types a, b and c. All have been mounted on type 1 scopes:

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Compback_zps13f92884.jpg



I have also seen several of these scopes with a rail fitted for mounting purposes. I have never owned one though. I do not know if the scopes were manufactured with the rail fitted or later added as a modification. I do know that the various different mounts featured above are not particularly good and especially the Type A and Type B that will be of most interest to us; they are prone to coming loose and are not particularly secure. The single piece mounts are slightly better but a scope rail would beat all [for the original intended purpose].

The Brands.

There are nine confirmed brands suitable, most here have been referred to before but here is some info on availability of variations. It would seem that most of these brands were widely available in the UK in the 70's and 80's, which is why it will undoubtedly be easier for those based in the UK to acquire these items. Brands listed alphabetically.

I have used the best quality images I have available but as you will see some are not great. If you have a better quality picture where I have used a poor one then I'd be grateful if you could supply one and I will update accordingly. Images of boxes have been added where possible in order to assist eBay buyers where scopes are often poorly described and photographed but boxes are often easier to identify. I have only pictured confirmed and original boxes and any cases where I have not been able to verify a box as being original I have not pictured it.

ASI 4x20 Scope.

The ASI is the most popular choice for most people and is the widely accepted benchmark. This is, by a country mile, the most common scope I encountered and I found them in both type 1 & 2. ASI in it's original form only comes with type D mount. The ASI was also (generally) the most expensive option, the problem being that it is so widely known and not just in Star Wars circles. Having frequented many a shooting board and forum it is clear that it is widely known outside Star Wars Circles. Basically everyone knows about it and everybody is looking for one so the price is pushed up. It's likely you’ll need to acquire your own hero rings and tall feet. This scope has been definitively identified on the ‘Nostromo Blaster’ from ‘Alien’ and pictures of that original prop can be seen below posted by Lonepigeon. Interesting to note that the Alien prop features scope mount type D. . The prop company that made that prop also made the ESB EE3 weapon so this gives it provenance but there is no concrete evidence that the ASI is correct scope but merely the first brand identified that was a match. With that in mind there is no reason you should pay more for an ASI than any other brand.

ASI is also the brand that people should be the most wary of when looking to buy, including from these boards. I have seen several ASI 4x20 sold on TDH that are the wrong scope. If the photo's aren't great or look 'arty' with the features I have described not easily visible then you could be looking at the wrong model. People selling the correct model will always use a decent shot, side on that clearly displays the proper features and the infinity symbol. It is important that you look for scopes by their type and features, not the brand. Just because you have found a source for an old ASI does not mean it is the right ASI, you could end up spending a lot of money for something incorrect. Remember that 'Vintage' is just the salesmans way of telling you you're buying an old piece of junk. A new 4 x 20 scope costs about £10 and are of comparable quality to these old scopes so you shouldn't be paying more than that for the incorrect 'vintage scope'. You have been warned!
A-S-I Anglo Spanish Imports - Distributor to the UK Sporting Gun Trade - Quality without compromise

An ASI 4x20 Scope type 1(a) metal eyepiece
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An ASI 4x20 type 1(b) metal eyepiece
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This variant belongs to Lonepigeon. Note that there is no full stop after the 'I' of ASI and that the 'I' sits exactly centrally over the zero in 4 x 20. The sheen and finish of this eyepiece is identical to the Sussex Armoury Type 1(b) posted lower down. I would expect they were of the same time or batch. Photo reproduced with permission

An ASI 4x20 Scope type 2 plastic eyepiece
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ASI 4x20 with Original Mount

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An ASI 4x20 Scope original box
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N.B. You may have seen ASI boxes in a deep red/burgundy colour with Gold Lettering "ASI SuperScope" or Black Boxes with "ASI Deluxe Scope". Those are not the correct box for this model of scope. Those are for the better scopes, this is the entry levely model.

ASI Original instructions
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Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) 4x20 Scope

The BSA is a late discovery and the one pictured represents the only time I have seen the correct scope made by BSA. This particular one was sold on ebay in February 2014. I did place a small bid on it but did not win the auction as I wasn't prepared to bid high; the reason being that the particular scope sold has a rail fitted to it. I have seen several brands with rails fitted, most notably on the ASI, but I am unsure if the rails are factory or owner fitted. I do think the rail gives a better attachment than the receiver ring types of most interest to Fett fans as do one piece mounts used by some other brands e.g. The Sussex Armoury. The rings we are most interested in are actually pretty rubbish for the intended purpose and often work themselves loose.

These are pictures from ebay so are not the best quality but better than nothing. The brand marks on this scope have been partially rubbed off but the remains of the infinity symbol can be seen just to the right of the 'N' of the partially removed 'JAPAN'. I have circled it in red for ease of identification; there is no red circle on the actual scope. This particular model appears to be of the Type 3 variety but it is difficult to say for certain without holding it or having a better photo to view. Be careful with the BSA brand; I have seen another BSA 4x20 bearing identical marking with correct infinity symbol that is not the correct scope (eyepiece too short, windage/elevation/saddle completely incorrect and back to front, wrong tube ratios and incorrect bell).

More info on BSA here. After a government bailout in '73 they were eventually sold to Gamo/El Gamo in '86.
Birmingham Small Arms Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A BSA 4x20 type 3 scope.
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BSA Scope with rail fitted.
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Gamo/El Gamo 4x20 Scope.

No pictures I am afraid but it's definitely out there. This company is still very much in action and producing Air rifles and scopes. El Gamo are the 'Spanish' aspect to Anglo Spanish Imports (ASI) in the period we are interested in. The El Gamo Paratrooper and Rangemaster Air rifles and the ASI Paratrooper and Rangemaster Air rifles are the same thing.


Hunter 4x20 Scope.


I’ve seen these in both type 2 and type 3. Hunter scopes come with Type A mounts. Difficult to find info on this brand due to the association of the word 'Hunter' with the word 'Scope'. I believe it is most likely that this is the brand used on the real props. See further down.

A Hunter 4x20 scope type 2 plastic eyepiece
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A Hunter 4x20 scope type 3 plastic eyepiece (and inaccurate locking ring)
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This scope belongs to Locitus and this photo is reproduced with kind permission of Mathias - cheers big man.

Hunter Scope with Original Mounts

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A Hunter 4x20 original box
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Reverse:
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Jason 4x20 Scope.


The elusive Jason scope. It was very hard to find information about this scope so it seems to me to be the rarest. A picture of one can be found in the gallery of the ROTJ hero prop. Difficult to see from that single picture but the eyepiece definition looks quite good so I think this may be a type 2 but I can't be certain and unfortunately the gallery picture doesn't allow me to tell if the scope rings are type A or B.

Jason scopes are in fact Jason/Empire formerly of Kansas City, Missouri. It appears they stopped trading circa 1985 and may have been bought out or taken over by Bushnell (unconfirmed). The only definite information I have been able to find thus far is on a line of scopes that this company imported from Japan between 1969 and 1971. The scope we are interested in is not contained in the list of scopes I have found for those dates. As this is now confirmed as an American brand no doubt I will have great difficulty acquiring one so if any of us are going to see this model it will most likely be someone in North America (anyone got one then let me know!). The Jason scopes all seem to apply a code suffix to the scope using a three digit number e.g. 'Model 963' etc My research indicates that all Jason 4x20s have a suffix of 869 (or 869c - see below) so the correct Jason should bear the 869 mark. This company seems primarily to have been concerned in the sale of Binoculars, spotting scopes and telescopes all of which were (apparently) imported from Japan. The search continues.

Boba Fett Return of the Jedi Blaster Rifle - The Dented Helmet Gallery

Jason 4x20 type 2 plastic eyepiece
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This is a crop from the picture in the gallery.

An Example of Jason Scope branding from a 3-7x20
T2eC16VHJIYE9qUcNkYGBRt-tQGg60_35_zpscac836ea.jpg
Note the three digit model number can be seen as (in this case) 863.

And here is the branding from (the wrong model) a Jason 4x20

Jason869C_zps5779fb36.jpg


I have managed a small advance in my research of the elusive Jason scope. The below scope typifies much of the research I have done on these scopes - I bought it knowing exactly what it was and that it wasn't what I was really looking for but I thought it might expand my knowledge of this model and the Jason brand that little bit more. It is essentially the 4x15 version of the EE3 scope and the same as the other known 4x15 clones in this line such as the ASI, Crosman, Hunter, Kassnar, Milbro, Relum, Webley and Scott, and World Famous (although mounts vary on these brands as they do on the 4x20s). The important thing with this one was that it was 'New Old stock' and came with the original box and some original Bumpf. It cost me around £25.

Jason Empire Sportsman Riflescope Model 862C 4x15 (type 2 plastic) with Original Box and type C Mount.
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Reverse of box does state 'Japan'.

Eyepiece Closeup. There are no infinity symbol or 'made in Japan' markings.
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Inside material (and reverse where present).
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For those outside the US, as I am, it would seem that Curt Gowdy was a famous sports commentator and that this is a straight up marketing deal: Corrections welcome, I had to look him up.


Milbro 4x20 Scope.

I found Milbro in types 1, 2 and 3. All the Milbro I have seen appeared to be in their original condition and all came with type A rings (one came with type B). These were quite common after ASI.

Milbro

A Milbro 4x20 Scope type 1 metal eyepiece
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A Milbro 4x20 type 2 plastic eyepiece
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Bryan Curtis' Type 2 Milbro as seen on 28/03/2014.

A Milbro 4x20 type 3 plastic eyepiece
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Again the inaccurate locking ring.

Milbro 4x20 with Original Mounts

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A Milbro 4x20 scope Original box
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Milbro original instructions
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Rhino 4x20.

Interesting to see that this scope is 'Shockproof', a marking previously unknown to me and not reproduced on any of the other brands that I have seen. Thus far these have only been seen in type 3 and 4. Rhino scopes come with type A rings.

A Rhino 4x20 type 3 plastic eyepiece.
rhino_type3_zps3f0cae9d.jpg

As per all type 3 scopes the locking ring is incorrect and would need to be swapped out. Photo reproduced with permission of Lonepigeon.

A Rhino 4x20 type 4 plastic eyepiece
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This scope feature the extra ring and thus length to the plastic eyepiece. Locking ring is as per type 3 and is incorrect.

Rhino 4x20 with Original Mounts

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Rhino Scopes advertisement from the 1970's
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Note top left on the top page. Model 204 is almost the same as our boy (in fact it is 100% identical to a version of the Original Model 7 4x20 used some other SW props). I would guess that this 204 is either the direct predecessor or successor to our friend in the Rhino brand but that they were probably known by the same model number as the entry level scope. I Can't be sure of course.

Sussex Armoury 4x20 Scope.

These are known to come in type 1 and type 2. Sussex Armoury went into receivership on February 2nd 1982 and so may not have had time to produce the later models if they were trying to liquidate stock. Sussex Armoury only come with type C mounts.
See here for more info: Sussex Armoury

A Sussex Armouy 4x20 Type 1(A) Metal eyepiece
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A Sussex Armouy 4x20 Type 1(B) Metal eyepiece
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I have differentiated 'A' and 'B' only by the order in which they came to my notice, I know not which was produced first.

A Sussex Armouy 4x20 scope type 2(a) plastic eyepiece.
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A Sussex Armoury 4x20 scope type 2(b) plastic eyepiece. Code 1620 with Jackal Head
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Don't worry the Japan infinity symbol is on the back!

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Sussex Armoury 4x20 with Original Mount

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Sussex Armoury 4 x 20 Original Box

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Webley and Scott 4x20

This is clearly an exceptionally rare scope. I found only one and this scope represents the first and only time I have seen one. In addition I have never heard others reference Webley as having made this model so I believe this is going to be the first time we are aware Webley Made this model. This scope features the correct infinity symbol we all know. The one pictured came with a type C mount fitted as is the case with all Sussex Armoury scopes too.

Webley and Scott 4x20 Type 2 Plastic eyepiece
Webleytype2eyepiece_zpsb77c69c9.jpg


Webley 4x20 with Original Mount

WebleyOriginalMount_zpsbafc1bab.jpg


Other undiscovered brands?

You might think this part has been researched to death but I only found the Webley in August of 2013 and I'd never heard the correct model mentioned or referenced before. A lot of research has been done by others on this part by others before me but I did half expect to find it: why?

ASI and Milbro both do 4x15 versions of this scope with infinity symbol and I think it has long been known that they both do the 4x20 even if less widely known of the Milbro. Webley do the same 4x15 infinity scope so it seemed a natural progression for the Webley 4x20 to exist and (eventually) it did. At least four other brands do the same 4x15 infinity scope and they are KASSNAR, 'World Famous', Crosman, Gunmark and Relum. KASSNAR and Relum were available in UK in 1970s and so may be viable. So far as I can research both Crosman and World Famous are North American brands so may be of use to those of you on the North American continent. I have also seen KASSNAR 4x20 before albeit not the one we are interested in. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a correct infinity KASSNAR, WF, Relum, Gunmark or Crosman 4x20 out there. It's not an unreasonable leap to make and I certainly think that if you are over there in America that looking for a World Famous or a Crosman, particularly a Crosman, might yield better results than looking for a brand that was never widely sold over there.

Could these brands be out there too?
KGrHqZo4FIWEcPOBSN5hnKg60_35_zpsbf3155a8.jpg

KGrHqQOKp0FHffS7RvSBR-lJ0rKmQ60_58_zps43a21a2a.jpg

crosman_zps807208d0.jpg

gunmark_zpsee584a08.jpg

relum4x15infinity2_zps24b444a4.jpg


Which brand was actually used?

What???? Come on Andy, everyone knows it's the ASI!!! Actually the chances of it being the ASI are extremely unlikely and truthfully we may never know but we can look to the available evidence but we do have to make some suppositions, It is important to remember that it doesn't really matter of course; I will only ever be holding a replica and the serial number on my Webley won't match... however

ESB

I've got more interest in the ESB prop than the Jedi one and I know more about it so I think I'm on firmer footing here.

Firstly the ESB prop was from Bapty who are a UK company so it is reasonable to conclude that the scope will need to have been available in the UK in the 1970s and they all are with the exception of Jason, so that brand is out. Secondly, I think it is a reasonable assumption that the scope came with the correct mounts attached and that the prop makers did not take a scope and change the rings. They could have but it's a pain to do and given the manner in which the star wars props were hastily thrown together it's a bit of a stretch for me to believe they did. That means that we lose ASI (Noooooooooooooo!), Sussex Armouy and Webley and Scott; this leaves only those scopes with the correct type A mounts fitted as standard and they are Hunter, Milbro and Rhino. Third, as stated earlier in the post, it needs to be a type two with plastic eyepiece and that only leaves the Hunter and Milbro brands; they are is the only known scope that fits all three criteria (If Rhino came in type 2 they'd still be up for consideration). Lastly there is one piece of photographic piece of evidence that I have considered:

There are several shots in the gallery where it is possible to see a white mark on the front of the scope, which is not a trick of the light and is definitely part of the brand markings and to me it looks like it could be the right hand side of an 'H'. Of course it could also be part of a different letter entirely and is hardly conclusive.

Boba Fett Empire Strikes Back Costume - The Dented Helmet Gallery

Anyway I think the Hunter and Milbro are presently a stronger shout than the other brands.

ROTJ

For ROTJ it is harder to speculate beacuse I don't know where the prop was made and I'm genuinely not sure if the scope is a type 1 or a type 2. If it was Bapty then the logic aboe would follow. I suspect it was ILM made and so the Jason comes back into play (assuming it did come with those rings). I didi consider whether it was possible that the Hero prop scope could be from the disassembled ESB EE3 prop and therefore Hunter again but having looked over the gallery of the ROTJ prop I can't find the white mark as seen in the hallway shot linked above so it's most likely a completely different scope and not the same scope used on both props.

Whilst I can't rule out any one brand that comes in a type 2 completely I can assert that in my opinion the most likely candidate for ESB Hero props are the Hunter or Milbro 4x20! There's a certain poetic justice to the Hunter brand being picked for a Bounty 'Hunter'. I know one thing: when I assemble my final ESB replica using my real Webley, MPP and all the other real parts I have acquired I won't be using an ASI that I have modified, I'll be using a Hunter, in original type 2 with original type a hero rings (until definitive evidence of another brand is shown).

Availability and sources:

I'm in the UK and my hunt is based on that. I'm in the country of origin so I have it easy and have found quite a few of these scopes. If you don't live in the UK and don't have access to the wider sources I do then price goes up and numbers available are fewer.

Ebay UK is a great source for everyone and a large number of the scopes I saw were on ebay. The issues surrounding ebay are well known. The only thing I would advise is to search often. If you miss a BIN then it's gone forever. Keep search terms wide for those poor listings.

Gun boards and forums also a good source but if your post count is low and you chime in for an ASI then there is a good chance they'll see you coming.

Charity shops, car boot sales and local papers are also good sources. Interesting point on the latter two; I discovered that the ASI Rangemaster Air Rifle came with the 4x20 scope fitted to it and so found one for sale in the local paper. Bought whole item for £50, removed scope (type D mount), sold rifle sans scope for £40. I also saw Rangemasters with scopes fitted at car boot sales. You’ll need to be cautious as ASI sold rifles with different models of 4x20 fitted too! It would seem that ‘Anglo Spanish Imports’ imported from El Gamo of Spain and the same scope can also be found on vintage El Gamo Rangemaster Rifles. In the case of El Gamo the scope is unbranded but is the same. The ASI Rangemaster rifle is effectively a re branded El Gamo rangemaster; a great source for vintage scopes.

This is a picture of an ASI Rangemaster that sold in late 2012 through Gunstar for £120, the box may have pushed the price up. Looks to be a type 2 with type D:

ASI-Marksman-A91384_zps36ae46b5.jpg


A Gamo Rangemaster that sold for £60. Unbranded but identical scope (looks to be type 2 with type D).
Gamo, rangemaster, .22, Used - Good Condition, Break Barrel, Air Rifle from penrith, Cumbria New and Used Guns for Sale

Scope Ring sources (other scopes)

Type A Hero rings and tall feet. If they don't come on the scope complete as in the Hunter, Milbro or Rhino then the single biggest source is the Webley and Scott 4x15 in a variety of models. Pictured here are two different models of Webley; One is the infinity symbol and t'other different symbol but both originally came with type A. Never paid much more than £20 for a Webley 4x15. Once I'd swapped the mounts out and sold it on I didn't lose out by much and in a couple of case I made a profit on them!

Type A Hero Rings = Webley 4x15!

Webley4x15s_zps9c50104f.jpg


Frankenscoping:

Before I tracked down my first proper scope I achieved the correct look by means of assimilating parts of other vintage scopes. My original Frankenscope thread can be found here: http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f20/ee3-scope-alternative-asi-vintage-part-bashing-pic-heavy-45034/

The following list represents all the complete scope and mount combinations I presently know of as well as those parts that are suitable for the method of part bashing. The list is based on scopes that are known or believed to be in their original condition and does not (cannot really) account for subsequent alterations made by either shooters or Star Wars fans. I will post any further updates that come to my attention in this thread rather than the original Frankenscope thread not to confuse matter but this is simply the more complete thread.

Complete Scopes.

Scopes that are complete and include correct receiver rings and tall feet:

Hunter 4x20 (infinity symbol). This is the only scope I have found in the original condition with correct type 2 eyepiece AND correct receiver rings with tall feet. Based on the available evidence I believe this is the most likely to be the actual correct scope used on the ESB prop.
Jason 4x20 (symbol unknown but possibly and probably infinity if present). I've never seen one of these in person but believe it came as the Hunter above in Type 2. As a US brand and not available in the UK this is very unlikely to be the correct model used on the ESB prop.
Milbro 4x20 (infinity symbol).
Rhino 4x20 (infinity symbol).

Scopes that are correct but feature incorrect mounts:

ASI 4x20 (infinity symbol). Comes with type D single piece mount.
BSA 4x20 (infinity symbol). Comes with rail attached. Unknown if rail is factory or buyer fitted.
Milbro 4x20 (infinity symbol). Come with type B two piece receiver rings and type B Short feet (meaning I have seen them with both the tall and short feet).
Sussex Armoury 4x20 (infinity symbol). Comes with type C single piece mount.
Webley and Scott 4x20 (infinity symbol). Comes with type C single piece mount.

Part bashing.

Correct Eyepieces.

ASI 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal and type 2 plastic.
Crosman 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal.
Gunmark 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal.
Hunter 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 2 plastic.
Jason Empire 4x15 Model 862C (no symbol). Comes in type 2 plastic.
Kassnar 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal.
Milbro 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal and type 2 plastic
Relum 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 2 plastic.
Webley and Scott 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal and type 2 plastic.
World Famous 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal.
These ten scopes are identical but for the mounts and are effectively the 4x15 versions of the 4x20 scope we are interested in.

Close Eyepieces.

These very similar to the correct eyepieces and would be indistinguishable on an assembled and weathered scope.
Kassnar 4x20 Plastic eyepiece (no symbol other than Kassnar brand symbol but same as all other eyepieces in the 'Close Eyepieces' section but for the NS Cadet). Not the same as 4x15 (above).
Nikko Stirling Cadet 4x15.
Original Model 7 4x20 (S in circle symbol).
Relum 4x15 (S in circle symbol).
Tasco 4x20 '#605V' (R in circle symbol).

Locking Rings

ASI 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Bushnell Sportview 4x15 (no symbol).
Crosman 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Gunmark 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal.
Hunter 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Glenfield 4x15 200B (R in horizontal diamond symbol).
Jason Empire 4x15 Model 862C (no symbol).
Kassnar 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Milbro 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Relum 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Webley and Scott 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Webley and Scott 4x15 (E in vertical diamond symbol).
World Famous 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Tasco 4x20 '#605V' (R in circle symbol).

Tubes.

Nikko Stirling Mountie 4x20 (No symbo, gold lettering).
Nikko Stirling Mountie 4x20 (No symbol, white and orange lettering).
Original Model 7 4x20 (No symbol but identical to S in circle symbol ‘long’ version).
Original Model 7 4x20 (S in circle symbol ‘long’ version).
Original Model 7 4x20 (S in circle symbol ‘short’ version).
Original Model 9 4x20 (S in circle symbol).

Saddle, windage and elevation screws and caps.
ASI 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Crosman 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Gunmark 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 1 metal.
Hunter 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Jason Empire 4x15 Model 862C (no symbol).
Kassnar 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Milbro 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Relum 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Universal Standard 4x15 (symbol unknown).
Webley and Scott 4x15 (infinity symbol).
World Famous 4x15 (infinity symbol).

Objective Bell.

This is the hardest part to get right and I’ve only seen three scopes with the correct bell with lip that isn’t one of the proper complete scopes listed above. The second two would be correct complete scopes if not for the permanent presence of incorrect mounts. I suppose it might be possible to correct them.
ASI 3-9x20 (Symbol unknown, possible infinity).
ASI 4x20 (infinity symbol with scope rail attached mount attached).
ASI 4x20 (infinity symbol and very tall feet attached).

Acceptable Objective Bells.

Nikko Stirling Mountie 4x20 (No symbol, gold lettering).
Nikko Stirling Mountie 4x20 (No symbol, white and orange lettering).
Original Model 7 4x20 (No symbol but identical to S in circle symbol ‘long’ version).
Original Model 7 4x20 (S in circle symbol ‘long’ version).
Original Model 9 4x20 (S in circle symbol).
Rhino Model R204 4x20 (S in circle symbol). This is the same as the 'Long' Original Model 7s.
Sussex Armoury 4x20 (S in circle symbol). This is the same as the 'Long' Original Model 7s.
Zenisson 4x20 (S in circle symbol). This is the same as the 'Long' Original Model 7s.

Type A receiver rings with tall feet.

BSA 1958 4x20 (no symbol). Will ascertain ‘Mk’ model.
Milbro 4x20 (symbol unknown – long eyepiece and does not have additional screws to affix saddle, windage and elevation screws to tube almost as if it were a 4x20 version of the Webley and Scott 4x15 'E in vertical diamond symbol' scope).
Webley and Scott 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Webley and Scott 4x15 (E in vertical diamond symbol).

Type B receiver rings with short feet.

ASI 4x20 (E in vertical diamond symbol)
ASI 4x20 (S in circle symbol – same as ‘short’ version Original Model 7 4x20).
ASI 4x20 (Y in equilateral triangle symbol)
Crosman 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Hunter 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Milbro 4x20 (infinity symbol).
Nikko Stirling Mountie 4x20 (No symbol, gold lettering).
Nikko Stirling Mountie 4x20 (No symbo, white and orange lettering).
Original Model 7 4x20 (No symbol but identical to S in circle symbol ‘long’ version).
Original Model 7 4x20 (S in circle symbol ‘long’ version).
Original Model 7 4x20 (S in circle symbol ‘short’ version).
Original Model 7 4x20 (S in circle symbol ‘squat’ version).
Original Model 7 4x20 (No symbol but identical to S in circle symbol ‘squat’ version).
Rhino Model R204 4x20 (S in circle symbol). This is the same as the 'Long' Original Model 7s.
Webley and Scott 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Webley and Scott 4x15 (E in vertical diamond symbol).

Type C mount to be cut for ROTJ stunt mounts.

ASI 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Bushnell Sportview 4x15 (no symbol).
Glenfield 4x15 200B (R in horizontal diamond symbol).
Jason Empire 4x15 Model 862C (no symbol).
Kassnar 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Milbro 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Relum 4x15 (infinity symbol). Comes in type 2 plastic.
Sussex Armoury 4x20 (infinity symbol).
Sussex Armoury 4x20 (S in circle symbol). This is the same as the 'Long' Original Model 7s.
Universal Standard 4x15 (symbol unknown).
Webley and Scott 4x20 (Infinity symbol).
World Famous 4x15 (infinity symbol).
Zenisson 4x20 (S in circle symbol). This is the same as the 'Long' Original Model 7s.
Pretty much most period 4x15s seem to come with these type C mounts.

Edit 20/02/2014. The market for these has stagnated somewhat of late even though I have not actively been looking it seems that at the present these are not coming up. In response to this and the increasing frequent PMs on the subject please be advised that I do not presently have the time to assist others in finding this part (numerous requests) as I am no longer actively seeking or researching these. I am confined to ebay the same as everyone else but I do think that with the information contained herein that you have as much relevant info that you need to find one. If I have any available then they'll be in the Cargo hold - good luck scope hunters!

Live the dream.

Andy
 
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locitus

Hunter
Wow, you weren't kidding with the one-stop-shop line!

I think I can add that there is a difference in saddle length between type 1 (and 2?) and type 3 scopes.

Type 1 has an overall saddle length of 31 mm.
Type 3 has an overall saddle length of 30 mm.

The numbers come from my Sussex type 1 and my Hunter type 3 scopes.

Fantastic post Andy! :)
 

RafalFett

Well-Known Hunter
Great research (and re-research) and lots of cool info! Thanks for doing this! I already see lots of happy faces...
 

intwenothor

Active Hunter
Thanks guys, jolly decent of you. Re: Measurements - it is my intention to do a proper technical drawing with the measurements for each but I just haven't had the time and I can't find my calipers, might need to get a new set.

I've already added a couple of new pictures that I had missed out before:

Pictures of a modified type C mount and a couple of shots of type 1 scopes with type A,B and C mounts fitted.
 

locitus

Hunter
I'm not surprised you had more up your sleeve. Let me know if you need any measurements. :)
I have type 1 and 3, and scope mounts A,B and C readily at hand. And callipers!
 

Necronaut

Hunter
Awesome! I haven't got to the blaster portion of my Fett build yet, but I think this thread has pretty much summed up everything I'll need to know for it, IMHO. I vote for a sticky!!
 

intwenothor

Active Hunter
I have type 1 and 3, and scope mounts A,B and C readily at hand. And callipers!
Got all the scope types (and rings) just need the calipers and the time, definitely need the time. My helmet paint up has been on a back burner for while and I need to do some more work on that too. Might take a few attempts too, I haven't done a technical drawing since wood and metal work at school and that was a long time ago.
 

locitus

Hunter
Got all the scope types (and rings) just need the calipers and the time, definitely need the time. My helmet paint up has been on a back burner for while and I need to do some more work on that too. Might take a few attempts too, I haven't done a technical drawing since wood and metal work at school and that was a long time ago.
Yeah, I know you have all the parts, but a second measurement to confirm the numbers could sometimes be useful. But if you change your mind, just let me know. My offer will always be open.
 

intwenothor

Active Hunter
Actually, that's a good idea and i'll take you up when the time comes. Incidentally does your type 3 have the screw in ring for the objective bell assembly?
 

locitus

Hunter
Actually, that's a good idea and i'll take you up when the time comes. Incidentally does your type 3 have the screw in ring for the objective bell assembly?
Excellent. :)

No it doesn't. The lens is on an assembly that is completely inset inside the metal bell. So there is no visible ring. You'd need some kind of wide tool I think to get the lens out, not like the type 1 which you can remove by hand. It kind of looks like there are notches in the ring holding the lens for a tool, but it might just be dings in the metal.

The eyepiece definitely has notches for a tool for screwing the lens in and out though.

Edit: Actually, looking at the bell and lens in better light I can see that it really is notches for a tool. Two notches, at opposite sides of the lens.
 
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intwenothor

Active Hunter
Excellent. :)

No it doesn't. The lens is on an assembly that is completely inset inside the metal bell. So there is no visible ring. You'd need some kind of wide tool I think to get the lens out, not like the type 1 which you can remove by hand. It kind of looks like there are notches in the ring holding the lens for a tool, but it might just be dings in the metal.

The eyepiece definitely has notches for a tool for screwing the lens in and out though.

Edit: Actually, looking at the bell and lens in better light I can see that it really is notches for a tool. Two notches, at opposite sides of the lens.
Hmm, The screw in ring of the objective bell on mine (type 3) can be unscrewed (but the whole bell cannot), do you think it's missing on yours, takenoff and lost etc? Is the end threaded with grooves for a screw in piece? If that be the case then presumably you could add the ring from a different old scope to complete it??

The other thing about the type 3s making me believe that they were definitely supplied with type A rings in their original form (other than the fact that mine came with it's box as 'New, old stock') is that in order to change the rings you would have to remove all of the windage and elevation screws (and saddle) and slide both rings off the eyepiece end to do it as the objective bell cannot be unscrewed.
 

locitus

Hunter
Hmm, The screw in ring of the objective bell on mine (type 3) can be unscrewed (but the whole bell cannot), do you think it's missing on yours, takenoff and lost etc? Is the end threaded with grooves for a screw in piece? If that be the case then presumably you could add the ring from a different old scope to complete it??

The other thing about the type 3s making me believe that they were definitely supplied with type A rings in their original form (other than the fact that mine came with it's box as 'New, old stock') is that in order to change the rings you would have to remove all of the windage and elevation screws (and saddle) and slide both rings off the eyepiece end to do it as the objective bell cannot be unscrewed.
That could be it! There are threads on the inside of the objective bell.
 

intwenothor

Active Hunter
The ring from a Nikko Stirling Mountie 4x20 would fit.

Edit on 19/01/2013: Incidentally I did check with the screw in ring from two types of NS Mountie but conceivably any of the old 4x20 would work. 20mm is always 20mm - obviously. Hope you manage to find what you need to finish a great scope.
 
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lonepigeon

Active Hunter
Excellent presentation of info and great photos!
This should definitely by "sticky" or even put in the Wiki.

I have two Type 1 ASI's, a Type 2 ASI, a Type 3 Hunter and a new one for you... a Type 3 labeled Rhino (which is a Milbro brand).
 

intwenothor

Active Hunter
I have two Type 1 ASI's, a Type 2 ASI, a Type 3 Hunter and a new one for you... a Type 3 labeled Rhino (which is a Milbro brand).
Brilliant, thanks Chris, exactly the kind of response I was hoping for! I had considred the adding the Rhino speculatively based on having seen 4x32 scopes issued in identical models as some of the other brands mentioned but I hadn't seen a 4x20 so didn't want to add it by mere conjecture.

I'd like to update the original post based on your observations and so would be grateful if you could furnish more information so I can update in line with the original post.

Can you provide information as to the ring types on your ASI scopes and whether or not whatever they came with appeared to be original etc?
Ditto for the Rhino, what type of rings and did they appear to be original and how do you know that Rhino was a Milbro sub-brand etc, etc, etc?

Also as a US based collector, perhaps you and any others that are out there, could help me with information on the price and availabilty side of things to help US collectors. If you could present the info in such as way so as it would be commensurate with the OP? I can then update that to the OP so it is less UK centric. This appeal would extend to any other nation as well: Do you have info that might assist non UK collectors?

Andy
 
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