CODE OF CONDUCT - RECASTING GUIDELINES UPDATE

[Gilmortar]

Yeah, I get ya now Dstar. It was really unclear to what you were saying. But I think ole Batninja sums it up too.

Like if I was making say, Knee Armor. And after selling some, this guy comes on the board and it has something similar to mine. The first thing I'm gonna do, is compare. Whether his pics are really fuzzy or not, im gonna take them and compare them to shots of my stuff. And if I felt I had enough evidence to pursue it, I would take it to TDH admin.

but the first set of knees that come up for sale after mine come out, im not gonna just go RECASTER!!!!! AHHHHH HE IS RECASTING STUFF OF MINE!!!! thats what they are trying to defuse from this whole scenario. word?

 

[Devilstar2k2]

Yeah... I get ya... lol... I just don't see why its gonna have to be some big complex sting to catch a recaster now. It would be so much easier if the CoC rule was simply:

1. If you plan to sell batch runs of a replica on TDH, you are required to take pictures of your progress from the original item. This is to provide safety from theft of your work, as well as to show that your work is indeed your work.


Wait... Isn't that what the rule used to be?

 

[Tim Allen]

Yeah... I get ya... lol... I just don't see why its gonna have to be some big complex sting to catch a recaster now. It would be so much easier if the CoC rule was simply:

1. If you plan to sell batch runs of a replica on TDH, you are required to take pictures of your progress from the original item. This is to provide safety from theft of your work, as well as to show that your work is indeed your work.


Wait... Isn't that what the rule used to be?

True but incases like mine where my sculpts were done in a day and I didnt have a camera handy, then what? Its always nice to have photos as back up (which I do now no matter what) but that always cant be possable. If a recaster wants to sell, there going to do it no matter what happens, but once that item hits the market then its open discussion. Better pictures can be taken and the comparison of the two can be judged then. Instead of pointing the fingers and calling people out.

 

[Devilstar2k2]

Thats one other point that I wanted to bring up, if its stated in the rules up front, its not a matter of guilty til proven innocent anymore. Its a matter of "D'oh... I didn't read the rules". Know what I mean?

I don't mean you specifically, I just mean in general because it seems like TDH is worried about offending people. But hey, if its there in the CoC when you sign up... Then... Well, yeah...

When you scrapped your stuff, that was the right thing to do, imo. Because at the time, the rule was in effect. Sad that you had to, but thats what the policy was and you did the right thing. Also, ended up benefiting you, because now you get to prove without a doubt on your second run that its your stuff.

BTW, I didn't doubt ya... I saw your other stuff and know you have talent...

 

[Madrid Boba]

Well, Well Well...

To copy or recast somebody´s work is not fair. In the same way, even if you do it from scratch, and you dont pay Lucas for it is not fair either.

Is the creator of a model from scratch a better person than someone who modifies the scratch builders work?

Talking of people or companies like rubies or Don Post, who pays for building them, and then talking about pople that even if they start from zero, but based in lucas creators ideas is not the same.

In my opinion, the guy that starts from zero, and the guy that recasts someone elses work are both wrong. The only difference is that one works harder,and he is more talented, but in the end both are breaking the law.

But...if you take a Dont post,or an altmann, and you change some details and recast it, and you sell 10 or 20 ..Will Lucas answer you on the phone and tell you ..go ahead son, paid me xxx dollars and good luck with your sales..

It is not worth it to even try it. Just make them and sell them

But what is not fair is taking the work from someone of this forum (mate) like Bobamaker for example, and recast his work and sell it here and in ebay.

Did i make myself clear?

Sorry for my english. i dont get to practice that much, and becomes rusted.

 

[pennywise]

Well, Well Well...

To copy or recast somebody´s work is not fair. In the same way, even if you do it from scratch, and you dont pay Lucas for it is not fair either.

Is the creator of a model from scratch a better person than someone who modifies the scratch builders work?

Talking of people or companies like rubies or Don Post, who pays for building them, and then talking about pople that even if they start from zero, but based in lucas creators ideas is not the same.

In my opinion, the guy that starts from zero, and the guy that recasts someone elses work are both wrong. The only difference is that one works harder,and he is more talented, but in the end both are breaking the law.

But...if you take a Dont post,or an altmann, and you change some details and recast it, and you sell 10 or 20 ..Will Lucas answer you on the phone and tell you ..go ahead son, paid me xxx dollars and good luck with your sales..

It is not worth it to even try it. Just make them and sell them

But what is not fair is taking the work from someone of this forum (mate) like Bobamaker for example, and recast his work and sell it here and in ebay.

Did i make myself clear?

Sorry for my english. i dont get to practice that much, and becomes rusted.

Hunh?:confused and your point is......?

 

[Madrid Boba]

My point is that if you are recasting from someone you know, or if you are recasting from a helmet or armour that was created from scratch from someone of this forum...then dont do it.

But if you are using a helmet by a well known maker, and you want to do a few to get some money (not for all your life), just go ahead and do it.

I guess that i made myself more clear this time.
Regards

Alfredo

 

[Art Andrews]

Devilstar2k2,

I certainly understand your concerns. The problem with recasting is that it extends far outside this community and there are so many extenuating circumstances in ever situation that it is almost impossible to create a rule that works for them all. For example, you were suggesting that we make it a rule that any seller of multiple copies of an item show progress pics. If TDH was the only place where people made props, this would be work great. However, what do you do when a seller from another board, like the RPF, ventures here and begins selling a product he had already made, but didn't take pictures because he didn't know about TDH or our rules back when he made his items? Then we are stuck requiring pics of some but not others.

Before I go on, I want everyone to very carefully reread the first paragraph of the revised recasting rules. Those two sentences were written very carefully and purposefully. Make sure that you understand exactly what is being said and are not reading more into it than is being said.

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community.

Devilstar2k2, in regard to proving someone recast, you made my point perfectly for me. It is no more easy for the administration to prove that someone recast than it is for an average member. Like anyone else, as sculpts get more and more accurate, it gets more and more difficult to determine whose is whose and what is a recast. The problem is that all too often accusers come to the administration, make an accusation, provide little or no evidence and then drop the burden on the administration to try to gather evidence and prove/disprove their claim. We will no longer do this as it is not our responsibility to track down every accusation. If anyone is concerned enough about another member recasting, then it is expected that this member take the time to do some research instead of running to the administration and dumping it in our lap. In addition to this, over the years we have slowly moved to a position in which you are guilty simply because another member says you are until you can prove your innocence. We have allowed this to slide for a long time, but having reviewed it, we simply disagree with that approach as it makes you guilty by nothing more than the word of another. We would like to believe that the vast majority of our members are upstanding, honest individuals and we want them treated as such, not as criminals.

 

[Devilstar2k2]

Dent,

I understand about you guys not wanting to deal with it... But by establishing any kind of recasting rule, you kind of have to deal with the burden that comes with it unless you want your website in shambles.

Now, this is just my opinion, but it seems counter productive. You guys are gonna have much longer disputes now over all of this. Its not assuming that the folks are guilty from the door if the rules are already posted and in place when the new artists log on for the first time. It protects their work from theft, and protects their reputation. Think of it as a disclaimer of sorts.

As far as not being able to prove whats a recast and whats not... Well, you just cut off your most valuable tool, which was the progress pics rule.

With people from other websites coming here to sell, I don't know what to tell ya there... I mean, if it were my site, I'd just say tough beans if they can't provide the pics. Its either that, or watch a new wave recasters flow in once the word is out.

But again, this is all just my opinion... Only time will tell for sure... I can't see the future, but I do have a talent for spotting flaws in the system.

Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to start a ruckus... Just trying to help... I won't post anymore about it, its your site, your rules... I'm just glad to be here.

 

[Prymer13]

As if you were reading my mind...

I am so glad I have my bucket already...

 

[Art Andrews]

DS2k2,

This is not about the administration not wanting to deal with the issue, this is a matter of an issue, due to its very nature, not being fully able to be dealt with in a fair manner. Lets look at a few examples.

Items from defunct companies: Don Post no longer is in business. Should we allow their helmets to be recast? In business or not, it is still their helmet. How should this be handled?

Original castings: FP has what is supposed to be a prototype Jango helmet that he is recasting and making available. RS has a casting of the PP2 helmet that he could recast and make available. Should this be allowed? Even though they both bought their castings, they didn't buy the right from LFL to cast them. How should this be handled?

Items from unknown sources: MS and SF both bought "mystery helmets" off eBay and have recast them and are selling them. neither really has any right to do so. They don't know the source. They don't even know the history except as it has been told here, which is limited at best. Should we allow them to recast these helmets? How should this be handled?

As has been stated above, due to the very nature of this hobby, there is no way to set down a single rule or even a set of rules that will cover every situation. Our last attempt to create rules for recasting was to address every possible scenario we could conceive. However, as many members pointed out, these rules were not fair as it allowed some people to recast but not others. We tend to think that it is ok to rip off a large company or LFL but apply different standards to an individual. While some may try to defend that stance it is indefensible. We are not interested in playing semantic games with this or trying to somehow make a wrong deed right. We are calling a spade a spade and leaving it at that. Recasting is recasting, period. We are not making threats or sweeping statements regarding any sort of punishment or barring of such recasting. you, the members, will decide what you can morally live with and will make your choice with your pocketbooks. The only stipulation against recasting we have made is this: As stated in the revised rules, this community does not support the deliberate recasting of another member’s creation without consent. Beyond that, the decision on who and what you support is yours to make.

In regard to forcing individuals to show progress pictures, that has never been a rule here. We have suggested any sculpter or caster take these steps as a precautionary measure, but it has never been a demand. It has been the membership who has changed this suggestion into a stipulation and a virtual demand. While you may think that this protects one artist from a recaster, what it actually allows is for any established artist or member to place the cloud of guilt upon any person of their choosing unless that person can prove their innocence. This is not fair and will not be tolerated. If someone wants to ask for such proof, that is fine. However, expecting someone to have proof of everything they do is absurd and the fact that they do not have proof is notindicative of guilt.

While we understand that the artists here at TDH want some type of protection from recasters, for many, especially those who are recasting themselves, it is like a drug dealer asking the police to arrest a thief for stealing his drugs. As with the argument against recasting, such an expectation is indefensible.

D

Dent,

I understand about you guys not wanting to deal with it... But by establishing any kind of recasting rule, you kind of have to deal with the burden that comes with it unless you want your website in shambles.

Now, this is just my opinion, but it seems counter productive. You guys are gonna have much longer disputes now over all of this. Its not assuming that the folks are guilty from the door if the rules are already posted and in place when the new artists log on for the first time. It protects their work from theft, and protects their reputation. Think of it as a disclaimer of sorts.

As far as not being able to prove whats a recast and whats not... Well, you just cut off your most valuable tool, which was the progress pics rule.

With people from other websites coming here to sell, I don't know what to tell ya there... I mean, if it were my site, I'd just say tough beans if they can't provide the pics. Its either that, or watch a new wave recasters flow in once the word is out.

But again, this is all just my opinion... Only time will tell for sure... I can't see the future, but I do have a talent for spotting flaws in the system.

Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to start a ruckus... Just trying to help... I won't post anymore about it, its your site, your rules... I'm just glad to be here.

 

[webchief]

Personally I think it's about time this type of policy was released. I have said for YEARS that recasting a Don Post or a Master Replicas is no different than recasting a fan made sculpt. Just because one is created from a major licensee and one isn't doesn't make them different. I'm very comfortable with this official stance.

 

[pennywise]

So does the grandfather clause still stand? And what if someone has let's say "one" Don Post Deluxe "recast" they BOUGHT (not made) and they want to sell it, can they sell it in the cargo hold because they want to up-grade to a BM for example? Also I LOVE my MS bucket and would hate for others to not have the opportunity to get one also. Please Post NO NAMES! If you don't know my abbreviations PM me and I'll tell you.

 

[Tim Allen]

So does the grandfather clause still stand? And what if someone has let's say "one" Don Post Deluxe "recast" they BOUGHT (not made) and they want to sell it, can they sell it in the cargo hold because they want to up-grade to a BM for example? Also I LOVE my MS bucket and would hate for others to not have the opportunity to get one also. Please Post NO NAMES! If you don't know my abbreviations PM me and I'll tell you.

I think the dent clarified it when he said

Recasting is recasting, period. We are not making threats or sweeping statements regarding any sort of punishment or barring of such recasting. you, the members, will decide what you can morally live with and will make your choice with your pocketbooks.

More or less its up to the members to decided the fate of recasting off mass producted stuff ie: Dp
While directly casting off a members "sculpt" would be a big no no

The only stipulation against recasting we have made is this: As stated in the revised rules, this community does not support the deliberate recasting of another member’s creation without consent. Beyond that, the decision on who and what you support is yours to make.

 

[DL44 Blaster]

Personally I think it's about time this type of policy was released. I have said for YEARS that recasting a Don Post or a Master Replicas is no different than recasting a fan made sculpt. Just because one is created from a major licensee and one isn't doesn't make them different. I'm very comfortable with this official stance.

I too sounded off over at RPF years ago about this same stance and was pounded into the ground, dragged out into the street and nearly stoned to death, only to have an administrator PM me about my "actions":confused :confused :confused ..........which was solely my opinion......unbelieveable.:facepalm

I think, given the nature of this hobby the new TDH policy is as simple and fair as can be.

Everyone has a different scenario, situation, issue, problem, whatever, with the whole "recasting" thing, it's just a matter of moving on with it. Someone is always going to get stung in this hobby or any other for that matter.

It was a gray area then, is a gray area now, and will be a gray area a year from now. There is no one solution.

Good move TDH

Steve

 

[Foxbatkllr]

The way I understand it, it makes a lot of sense. The only thing that you will be "banned" or in trouble for is recasting another member's work. The rest of it is the grey area that many people have debated about for years, such as recasts of old licenses, recasts of current licenses, and recasts of original production items. Those grey areas will be governed by nothing other than the peoples own morality. Its up to you to decide whether you want to buy or sell that Don Post recast. At least, that's the way I understand it.

 

[Art Andrews]

You are on the right track now. The last three posts are definitely in line with our thinking.

 

[never ending fett]

you, the members, will decide what you can morally live with and will make your choice with your pocketbooks. The only stipulation against recasting we have made is this: As stated in the revised rules, this community does not support the deliberate recasting of another member’s creation without consent. Beyond that, the decision on who and what you support is yours to make.


D

i think that answers that question

*edit I was originally responding to pennywise, but in the time it took me to read the whole thread others beat me to it

 

[Devilstar2k2]

You are on the right track now. The last three posts are definitely in line with our thinking.

I was only speaking of casting another members work in regards to the old rule being top notch. As far as casting the commerical products, or original found items, well, I do see your point about not being able to make a fair rule in that regard. I guess I just assumed that those were gonna squeak by, and in my mind wasn't even grouping them with the others.

Sorry... Still love me...?

 

[Tyler Durden]

Devilstar2k2,

I think the negative connotation attached to the word "recasting" is what's making you unsure of the new policy.

"Recasting" is not a negative term; in the hobby it means "Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder."

It's a declaration not a judgment.

TDH felt it was time to remove the ambiguity from our recasting policy. Copying a Don Post or screen-used helmet is now what is has always been—recasting (an action). So, the community will approach those items the same way did before; they haven't become tainted goods.

I was only speaking of casting another members work in regards to the old rule being top notch. As far as casting the commerical products, or original found items, well, I do see your point about not being able to make a fair rule in that regard. I guess I just assumed that those were gonna squeak by, and in my mind wasn't even grouping them with the others.

Sorry... Still love me...?