Recasting discussion

[NikNak aka]

What am I chopped liver

 

[bobagoat]

...
...

And that is why I feel lemon meringue is the greatest type of pie in the pie family!

 

[Wes]

I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

Lets take SGB for example #1

1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

Lets take FP for example #2

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.

 

[Star Wars Chick]

Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".

 

[The Clayster]

I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

Lets take SGB for example #1

1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

Lets take FP for example #2

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.

I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.

 

[drokkul]

Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

I'm like Nostradamus or something

 

[drokkul]

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

I think the difference is that FP paid somebody for "rights" to the molds. And probably a pretty handsome amount.

 

[Wes]

Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".

I wouldn't expect any less that to be followed up by you Mirax

I'm not bashing FP TDH'ers, just using him as an example. If FP bought those molds from LFL then yes, he has the same rights as SGB in Example #1. Just as Evan with the Cobra lids has the same rights as SGB does.

But in the end, it all comes back to each person, as Mirax said, will you support "recaster guy" in either example.

 

[Benkenove]

I cannot be more agree ...

This is what I think... as a costumer... and as a buyer... (cause I'm not a prop maker at all... no really idea how to do it).

As a costumer... I start a project... and need some parts. I always use to want the best as possible, and I try to do my best to get the best one. Off course, I prefer to get everything from the original makers, I hate recast, they are a lack of respect to the original makers, and also they use to lost accuracy. Those are my 2 main reasons why to buy everything from origin and not recast. I'd never doubt about get an original piece or a recast one (even if the recasted are cheaper)...

BUT...

What would you do, if the piece you want is not available from the original source, you want it soooo badly ... and the only way to get it is buy a recast of that piece you want ??? You dont have other choice to get what you want (ok, we could make it, or get another one... but if you really want that one.. what would you do) ?

With this I'm not defending recast... I really hate it... but I feel the same as Mirax... If the original maker makes them available to all the people interested (all he can off course), that way the maker would KILL the recasters, because would be a fight between ORIGNAL vs COPY... (there is no doubt for me), so everybody would be happy... and recaster wouldnt even think about recast somethign that is available...

A simple example... Who would be so stupid to recast a FP Boba armor, when he is selling it for an amazing price...??? You can get it NOW, the price is sooo great, and is the same maker, 1st generation, absolutely perfect... So, a recast would be really stupid...

That is what I think should be done to finally "kill" the recasters ... the one and only way...

But well, I may be wrong... that's just how I see this "prop/costuming" world :$:$:$ I wish everything could be a little easier for everybody... prop makers, buyers-cu/ostomers, etc...

Ben.

While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

 

[Skalen Fehl]

The never ending debate.

I think Mirax and tubachris summed it up best. To paraphrase:

Casters: Create at your own risk. It's someone else's intellectual property.

 

[GCNgamer128]

I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.

That noob has recasted action figures and tried to sell them to us. He even tried to make a trophy using a Stormtrooper figure and a spraypaint cap.

 

[General Grievous]

Not trying to starting an Argument.
I agree with almost All of what Mirax said. Not Knocking you Mirax, your Post is Excellent.
The only part I don't agree with the part about "the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this". I don't think this is Entirely true.
Say you decide to make something like Ammo Belts or Jumpsuits or whatever.
You spend Hours and Hours researching, measuring, making patterns. Spend lots of Money building prototypes and tweeking them to get the Best, most accurate product to offer to your fellow builders.
You offer them only to have someone buy one, take it apart, findout how you made it , use it as a pattern and offer it for sale. To me this is also a "Form" of recasting. While it may not be a Direct "Cast" of your item, They have still profited off of your hard work.
This is only My opinion and No Disrespect ment to Mirax or anyone else.
As for the Examples I'm speaking hypothetically since I'm a Buyer not a Maker. Couldn't sew to save my life!
I am Not a supporter of Recasting. Having said that, I did buy a recasted copy of a DP Deluxe Vader helmet. So does that make me a Hypocrite?
Maybe. But, I also bought a Bust off of ebay that was supposedly bought from and made by a Very Talented sculpter on the RPF. The picture in the Auction showed the bust and it was primered. When I received it, it wasn't primered had never been primered. It had bits of light blue silicone mold stuck in the pores of the skin and hair. Alot of tiny air bubbles and a big Fugly seam on the back of the head. I took pictures of it and sent it to the Original sculpter. He confirmed that it was indeed a Recast and was Understandingly upset.
I did not keep it, but I didn't get rid of it either. I Destroyed it. I took pictures of it and emailed it to the person I bought it from and let them know that the Sculpter was aware of what he was doing. No more have been offered on Ebay.

Having been on several Forums for a long time I've noticed that Star Wars Fans, including Myself, are sticklers for detail. They want everything as Accurate as possible. And if it has somehow touched an Original somewhere down the line, all the Better.

I think if you take a copyrighted item, change it somewhat and offer casts or Recasts of it, you shouldn't get so Upset when someone does the same to you. Just my personal opinion. All you've done is take an existing item and moddified it. It isn't an Original work that you created. Yes you may have spent alot of time and even money to alter the piece, but in the end it still isn't your Original Creation

But, if you Make an Original Item (gauntlets, helmets, armor, busts,etc...)
that you made from scratch using your talents that it should not be Recast.
Nor do I think anyone should knowingly buy a recast of this kind.

I think alot of the problem with recasts on ebay is the Fact that there are thousands of Collectors and Fans that don't know about forums like TDH and the RPF. so there only outlet for these types of items is Ebay.

Hopefully this long post makes since to somebody. I'm not sure if I got my point accross or not.
Again, I'm not trying to tick anyone off, these are My Opinions Only and that is what was asked for.

General Grievous

 

[Hippo Clone]

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

 

[Laan]

I just dont understand what good can a thread like this bring? Not slamming you evan4218, I promise.
I feel like this has been hashed out several times and comes with the same conclusion over and over. Some do some dont. That choice is up the the individual. Word of mouth is a great thing. I know the prop community is a tight bunch. If someone thinks or knows someone is a recaster it will get around. It will be harder for that person to recast.
We all have our own opinions. We will not always agree. But that is what makes each and everyone of us unique. But to bring this up again will certainly leave people upset, angry and possible turn new and experienced THD'rs away. Just would hate to see that.
My opinion, mine only. No disrespect intended. Made anyone mad, send me a pm. I dont mind.
Peace love and happiness

 

[slavefive]

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

...wowzers!!!!!

...what he said :cheers

 

[eighteendelta]

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

That's a lot of interesting stuff I did not know. Thank you hippo, you're an informative fellow. I have to concur with you on a great deal of what you say. I guess I need to do some more history digging on this topic.

-x

 

[Rogue Studios]

This is one reason Myself and others steer caution on letting stuff out. If you assume the risk of making something don't let it out and make darn sure you trust who you let have it. One of the reasons I'm having second thoughts on letting the rocket pack is the recasting potential. I know the ears I had made were probably recasted the second they hit a certain fews (no one in particular) hands but if they recast it and claim it as their own resculpt or the new and improved version only to capitalize off of it, that is lowest of low in my book.

I let the ears out as a test to see what does happen to them before I let other stuff out. Overall I think folks have been very good about it on here I don't recall anyone ever recasting FP but then again I may be wrong. Also, what happens if you copy a Sgt Fang helmet he bought it off EBAY and has no rights to it perse' is it just an honor thing that stops that (sorry, I couldn't think of a good example so I picked on Sarge).

Lee

 

[The Clayster]

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

exactly.

 

[NikNak aka]

Read the CoC....

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

 

[The Clayster]

Read the CoC....

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

So some people still support recasters, even though they all are against it?