Neoprene under suit-second batch?

[Iceheart]

So, ZIA, I know your word is law and I'll pay for whatever you make, but... I would really, REALLY prefer the double fabric. The idea of that much neoprene in a costume that's hot under the leather anyway worries me. I would much rather have something lighter weight, and honestly, it LOOKS a lot better too. The Neoprene looks way too baggy because it doesn't have the right stretch to bend at elbows and knees and it comes off looking like it doesn't fit.

I would rather sacrifice a small amount of accuracy for a better look and more comfort.

 

[Zam I Am]

I know for a fact that my seamstress made my pants too big and didn't form fit it at the knees. Her patterning was also a bit different from the actual costume. Comparing the shot with neoprene on different shots is what has gotten me stumped, it's a lot bulkier looking than the double fabric in some shots. I hopefully will be sending out the swatches of the double fabric and neoprene (once I find my little piece) to everyone on the list that i have addresses for, hopefully at the end of the week. I am sorry that they are so small. That way you can decide better. As for the heat exhaustion, different people have different costuming needs. Some people may just want it for a mannequin, and accuracy~ while most are doing it to wear it. At the same time, I need minimum number to satisfy a neoprene run. The decision is very hard to make. I think that if you made the crop top out of the 1 yard of double fabric, then you wouldn't have to worry about the neoprene being up top. Be aware, if you do the crop top out of double fabric, it will need to have tacking stitches to a black leotard underneath to prevent it from riding up, just like regular lycra. The pants would be neoprene, and all would be happy! Yes? Does that sound like a better solution? I am trying my best to satisfy everyone and the numbers too. Juggling this is really difficult. Actually, once you all recieve the swatches, you will have a better formed opinion, and hopefully, if I can swing the 5 yrds neoprene 1 yard double fabric it will satisfy everyone's wish list.

 

[Benkenove]

Thanks for your comments on these ZIA.. and for all the effort you are putting here... I'm dying to get those swatches... and can FEEL the fabrics in my own hand .

What I can say is that... SO FAR, I really prefer neoprene... I'm for 100% accuracy... I really dont care if I dye of heat, or whatever, I have always seached for the most SCREEN ACCURATE as possible...

Same example on my Vader costume... that is one of the most hard to wear costume in the world... a FULL 3 pieces leather suit + the armor pieces, + the 100% heavy wool tunic and cape... that is a pain.. but, is the most accurate, and that is why I chose that...

Same happens here... neoprene is hot, for sure, but is the CORRECT fabric... so, more than sure I will vote and ask for the Neoprene ...

My 2 cents.

P.S. c'on guys, those who havent answered ZIA with the info, wake up.. we are waiting for you !!!

 

[Iceheart]

I think that if you made the crop top out of the 1 yard of double fabric, then you wouldn't have to worry about the neoprene being up top. Be aware, if you do the crop top out of double fabric, it will need to have tacking stitches to a black leotard underneath to prevent it from riding up, just like regular lycra. The pants would be neoprene, and all would be happy! Yes? Does that sound like a better solution? I am trying my best to satisfy everyone and the numbers too. Juggling this is really difficult. Actually, once you all recieve the swatches, you will have a better formed opinion, and hopefully, if I can swing the 5 yrds neoprene 1 yard double fabric it will satisfy everyone's wish list.

I'm holding final judgment til I get my swatches, but at the moment I would still rather have the double fabric, for the whole suit. The lycra crop top I have now doesn't have a problem with riding up at all (the beauty of drafting a pattern that fits me perfectly), and I'm often in my armor for 6 or 8 hours at a time at events. I don't want to be one of the people who has to suit down every hour and cool off before I can go back out... I'd rather be out there playing the whole time!

Benkenove, I can understand your desire for accuracy, but the neoprene that we have available to us doesn't seem any more accurate than the double fabric, as best I can tell... We can go too thick or too thin, but we can't get anything exact. I seem to remember Trisha's exact words being something like "Neoprene-like fabric" not neoprene. And if you look at how it fits, not just ZIA but the others from the first run, the neoprene doesn't move with the wearer like Zam's costume needs to. It just doesn't have enough stretch, and personally, I love to run in my costume. I don't want it flapping around me like a bag when I'm running down the halls of a con, chased by an Anakin. I'd rather it be a little thinner, a little lighter, and really fit TIGHT.

But, again, I will bow to the majority vote here. I just really, really, really, really, don't want to use the neoprene if I don't have to.

Julie:zam

 

[Benkenove]

OK, Let's wait till get the swatches, and then judge ...

But one thing... If I can run... jump, and make surf with my full body THICK neoprene suit, I think I will be able to do it with that fabric ...

But once again, let's wait... cause I'm in the other side, I want it Neoprene !!!

 

[Zam I Am]

I would say, I can troop 3 hours between breaks, but I definatly need hydration and wouldn't like to be in the sunlight at 80 plus degrees for too long. My hubby does a vader and he would need a break faster than me. Like I was at the Zooboo for 4 hrs no problem, at around 70 plus degree weather, no hydration. Feet were tired, but I didn't poop out like Dragon con 03'. D'con is 80 plus weather (at the end of summer in southern Georgia).

I can run in my suit ~ I think at D'con, I had to run to make sure that I made it into the 501st pictures (I was late.) Like I said, my seamstress wasn't that great at making things fit well. I had so many "fittings" but she had never worked with neoprene before, so she was at a disadvantage and constantly disgruntled at me for having her revamping things, everytime I showed her a reference picture. Had I known earlier, I should have gone to a surf shop sewing repair person, I would have, but then again, the ocean city shops are 3 hours away, and would've had less patience than my seamstress! My pants were too baggy in some places because she just didn't make it as couture, even though it should've been more form fit. And I was pressuring her terribly to make it in time for Dragon Con 03'. So, instead of another fitting, I just wore it the way it was rather than have her alter it once more. You'd have to view another person who had neoprene undersuit pics ~ Moncal - who had his sewn by my seamstress but altered a second time, Gaeriel and who did it herself~ to really view bagginess.

Actually, the tricot technically is "neoprene-like" and the technical term is polyurethane open cell material instead of "neoprene". But everyone on the market calls it neoprene for easier reference, because it's almost the same. Just like spandex is synonymous with lycra. I have a feeling if it was just a double fabric, they would described it as just backed lycra or have said something else. Spandex/lycra adhered to nylon= double fabric, and Trisha wouldn't have referenced double fabric as "neoprene-like." I have strong feeling double fabric isn't thick enough to warrent that terminology, unfortunately. Because "neoprene" almost always connotates some type of insulator like a foam. (I am just realizing this now as I type...) I know it can be confusing terminology in the textile world.
I am my own devil's advocate. Gosh I feel like Tyler Durden. Stinky poo. Sorry for being more on the "neoprene side" with my comments on this post, Iceheart. I am glad actually to have a constructive debate about this and will be happy to hear anyone's pro/con comments after you all receive the swatches. I enjoy learning about how detailed Trisha and George was with thier selections, it makes them such a creative geniuses.

 

[Iceheart]

Moncal - who had his sewn by my seamstress but altered a second time, Gaeriel and who did it herself~ to really view bagginess.

Gaeriel's suit now owned by Holly B.

MonCal's suit:

My plain lycra (please excuse the terrible pic, I don't actually have any good ones on my computer at work, and my hose connectors were having a bad day. )

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7115/myzam02sm7cj.jpg
The original:

So it really looks like it falls somewhere between the lycra and the tricot, probably a thinner lamination process or something we don't have access to? Hence my reasoning for, I'd rather have it be just a touch too tight than to be too loose, especially at the knees where it hangs over the shin guards. Again, personal preference, and tempered by the knowledge that I will have swatches in my hot little hands shortly to play around with stitching.

Apologies for the image-heavy post, but it's easier to look at these things with side by side comparisons.

 

[Zam I Am]

Totally see how it hangs over the knees though? I have a feeling double fabric would not do that. But my guess is as good as anyone else's. Neoprene, would though. I believe that with Moncal and Holly B's suit and mine ~ there is this problem with the "webbing." Webbing is the glue adhesive between the fabric layers. I believe that although it works, and stretches with the person and all the other layers, ultimately, there is some tension lost in the webbing when sewing and cutting the fabric. Seeing as how none of these people including my seamstress were as experienced in sewing this stuff together, everything is on the baggy side, because I believe all of them went under the assumption "better to have it a little baggy than to trim too much off and it be too small." "I can always alter it later." Reasoning. Thanks ~ for posting the images, I didn't have time last night to do posting references.
Sorry to inform you that the swatches are REALLY small, I don't think you will have enough to play around with stitching. But, I can tell you my sewing machine is a kenmore that can sew through denim. It's not an industrial. So, you can see how I did the alternate method of a welted seam.

 

[Benkenove]

Yes... there is no doubt about it... lycra, or doble layer (non-neoprene-like material) cannot archive that finish... the MOVIE ACCURATE finish...
It's more than clear that the baggy issue, like ZIA said is cause by the sewing and pattern.. better be sure off course... But the same movie effecr can be made ajusting alittle more the costume...

The lycra is too thin !!! and is something completely different... I can say the same with surf suits... is not the same (visually and talking about feeling), a simply black lycra vs. a black neoprene shirt... I can say this cause I have surf a lot, and I have had lycras and neoprenes... different feeling, weight, wide, etc etc...

Once again, I'm dying to get th swatches, but I'm affraid nothing could change my mind about neoprene... ACCURACY FIRST !!!

 

[Iceheart]

Totally see how it hangs over the knees though? I have a feeling double fabric would not do that. But my guess is as good as anyone else's.

Ditto on anyone's guess, but I think if the double was cut right, judging from the small test you did with the double-lamination that you posted the pictures of above, it could do that too. It seems like it has enough bulk that it could potentially behave almost like the neoprene in terms of bulging just a little at the knees. You can also "fake" some extra stiffness at the knees and elbows with thin interfacing if you needed it, to take out some of the stretch if it was TOO tight and fit more like the lycra.

Darn on the sample size, but I'll get over it. Will just have to wait for my actual fabric to get here to start sewing, I guess.

As for the fact that nobody on the first run was experienced with the fabric... I'm not either. *giggle* I've never sewn neoprene, or anything that thick, in my life. I live in landlocked Ohio, so surf shops are few and far between, meaning people who can make surf wear are also few and far between. So I'm kinda on my own here. It'll be an adventure.

Benkenove, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "finish," but if it's as I understand it, the texture or shine of the fabric, both are going to be the same, as it would be the same lycra over top of both the double-layer nylon and the tricot neoprene. It'll look the same on the outside, it'll just be thicker and less stretchy with the neoprene.

I know you're all about accuracy, and I would never try to talk you out of that (because I LOVE when people are that concerned with everything being "right" so their costumes always look amazing), but I do also think that the neoprene that we can get is NOT as accurate as we would like it to be (ZIA's post about the LFL budget above neatly sums it all up), and pattern drafting is only going to account for a certain amount of the bagginess we're seeing. I think the lycra backed with nylon only is going to behave more like thin neoprene than the tricot that actually contains the thin neoprene, just because of bulk and lack of stretch. Again, the pictures posted above give you a good idea of the way the double fabric will roll at the elbows and knees, like the real suit (we hope). It's going to move more like the very thin wetsuits that you use for warm-water sports, not the tricot that's approaching the thickness of cold-water gear once it's all layered on there. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-neoprene-rubber.htm has a nice writeup on neoprene as a material, and it mentions suits that go from .5mm up to 7 mm. Thickness on the tricot is 1.5-2 mm, according to ZIA, so it's up there in size after everything's piled on, even though it started as thin as we could get.

Again, not arguing with your desire for accuracy at all, just trying to explain that at least from what we know so far, the double-lamination might BE just as accurate as the tricot, depending on how it stitches up, and we don't know that yet.

:cheers

Julie

 

[MaulMaus]

Well, I've been reading this for a few days now... and after seeing these pictures posted, I "unfortunately" have to throw my vote to the "neoprene" side aisle. Unfortunate because it's so blasted hot here!

While the body suit is tight on Zam, it isn't quite like a second skin such as plain spandex would be - there's some padding in the fabric. That fit that the movie Zam has is due 1st to the pattern used, 2nd to the quality of the cutting of that pattern on the fabric itself and 3rd the sewing of the fabric. Last of course is the final fitting which shouldn't be drastic if the pattern was fitted to the person first.

If you use just the plain spandex (even double layered) - it will be more a matter of the fabric fitting the body than the pattern fitting the shape of the body. Hope I'm making sense here...

 

[Zam I Am]

Don't get me wrong benekov ~ double fabric is pretty darned close too. But to have "enough width." (I am leaning toward the neoprene,) but double fabric is NOT like lycra by itself. Once you add adhesive and the second fabric, it acts totally different. Almost like stretch denim.

AWE man! I can't find a swatch of the old neoprene, anyone on the old list want to send me their swatch so I can divvy it up to the new batch of people? I know it's a lot to ask, but I have been looking everywhere and can't find my swatch! Please pm me!

 

[FANGS]

Could some of the bagginess at the knees also come from it riding up a little when you walk? I don't know if any of the suits pictured above had stirrups on them that would keep it from doing that or not.....but just a thought.

 

[Zam I Am]

ARG! My post got messed up. The tricot fabric in total is 1.5-2.0 including the nylon backing and the lycra. Not 1.5 neoprene plus plus.. So, in actuallity it's one of the thinnest surf suit thicknesses. Double fabric is at most 1 mm thick. Lycra by itself is at most .5 mm thick, with no laminates.

 

[Benkenove]

Hehehe.. I got it I got it... I know is not just lycra... but the "effect" that we all can see in the REAL ZAM is more widht than the 2 coats.. and I can say that just looking the pics... (I'm shure I could tell it for sure when I receive the swatches )...

About the hot, well, I think there are not much hotter places there like here.. I live in Canay Islands, so hot here is a MUST !!! Even that, I'm STILL IN for the neoprene... I love the look that, for example, the MonCal suit has... You just have to be sure to drink enough when using it .

But as always, that's just me... I really want the neoprene version... man, when I see the Zam Wesell pics, it can be clearly seen that the fabric is THICK... I want that !!! (not only the final colour... I want the feeling of the neoprene thickness and its own feeling !!! )

 

[Zam I Am]

Hey guys, I thought that I would be able to ship the swatches out this weekend, but I can't find the original swatch of neoprene that I had. So, someone has been gracious enough from the first neoprene run/batch to send me a swatch that I can cut up and distribute to you all. I have to wait for that swatch to arrive first though ::embarrassed:: (yeah, my house is a mess!) I will continue to look in the mean time. Sorry for the delay. The five people with the :confused by their names have still not responded! PLEASE RESPOND! If you have any hesitations/questions before sending me your info, please feel free to ask.

Could some of the bagginess at the knees also come from it riding up a little when you walk? I don't know if any of the suits pictured above had stirrups on them that would keep it from doing that or not.....but just a thought.

To my knowledge, none of our suits (ZIA, MonCal, Gaeriel) had stirrups.

 

[FANGS]

Hmmmmm......might be something interesting to test out to see if that keeps it from riding up so much.

 

[Zam I Am]

I am sorry, I got the swatch on Wednesday, but I am celebrating Thanksgiving with my family on Saturday, doing an 8 course traditional chinese cuisine, and it takes all week to make. I can't fit time to goto the post office until Monday with all the swatches. Sorry dudes and dudettes.

 

[Zam I Am]

I am shipping today! You all should get your swatches by the end of the week I hope. Please post your opinions etc. It's very important for everyone to share about thickness etc. And, if anyone has done a pattern, please share in the other thread about how you think the top inner thigh welted pants would be sewn.

 

[Benkenove]

OLEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!

Great to hear that... I guess it will takes a little more to arrive to my home, but I'm dying to get them...

Btw, was you able to find the neoprene swatches ??? and will we receive the 2 samples ? (3 and 2 layers versions ? )

Thanks a lot !!!