Fett from 1986

Brak's Buddy said:

...have been discussing this very thing all afternoon.

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...and all night too. I think I've got a Fett hangover now. Why do I do this to myself? Digging around I'm also seeing many ESB features. I too have rejected the possibility that this stunt helmet was related to a vacuum-formed helmet. I've also rejected that Banzai88's cast is a copy of the ESB Hero.

First off, here is an ESB similarity, as I see it, beyond what has been mentioned already.

-- Scars in the mold of the stunt that match the ESB post-filming. I call them "tar splatters," but the black speckling that we see around the dent is repeated to some degree in the dome of the stunt that shares its dent with Banzai's cast. If there's anything 3D left on the surface of the ESB Hero, it's that black junk and the cracks. So that also adds to the case that it was cast after ESB was filmed... black junk = post filming = stunt with black junk. Never_ending_fett, yes the helmet I pointed out in the middle of the shelf is the same as the one with the dent picture posted.


Now, here are the things that lead me to believe that Banzai's cast is related to the stunt helmet.

1) The left cheek scar seems to match up pretty well in size and shape (excluding the diagonal cut in it that looks like it was introduced post-cast) to the stunt helmet's scar. The comparative resolutions make it jacked up, but the ESB is nowhere near as deep as the stunt or Banzai's. Therefore, this scar does not match the ESB Hero and it looks suspiciously like the stunt.

2) The left ear. [Outlined in black] The plates that these ears mount upon are different from helmet to helmet. They also seem integral to the helmet. The PP2 and PP3 have the highest left ear, the ROTJ is the next lowest, and the ESB has the lowest of all. This cast and the stunt cast in question are in the ROTJ-range or higher. The hole locations look very similar to the other helmets so that tells me that who ever worked on this helmet probably left this area alone.

3) The dent, of course. I'm willing to accept the stunt's dent marks as paint or laquer application or surface prep.

4) Art's cracks.

5) The mysterious RF ear. Whatever happened here, there's no good explanation. Regardless, what is remaining doesn't match the ESB helmet internal arrangment and it doesn't match any holes in the ESB helmet. The only idea I have is that they needed to make a durable piece so they shot a bolt straight into a block-RF ear. With that, I suppose they sought to remove the entire side in order to mount their own block-ear.

That's all some very good stuff ss! Man I'm learning so much from this thread, thanks guys!

Could the black "tar" seen on the ESB hero post filming be left over from whatever casting process they used to make the stunts for ROTJ that were based on the ESB, like they took the casting from the ESB hero then "reworked" it, including chopping off the RF ear hump, to make the ROTJ stunts.

SingleSeat said:

...and all night too. I think I've got a Fett hangover now. Why do I do this to myself? Digging around I'm also seeing many ESB features. I too have rejected the possibility that this stunt helmet was related to a vacuum-formed helmet. I've also rejected that Banzai88's cast is a copy of the ESB Hero.

First off, here is an ESB similarity, as I see it, beyond what has been mentioned already.

-- Scars in the mold of the stunt that match the ESB post-filming. I call them "tar splatters," but the black speckling that we see around the dent is repeated to some degree in the dome of the stunt that shares its dent with Banzai's cast. If there's anything 3D left on the surface of the ESB Hero, it's that black junk and the cracks. So that also adds to the case that it was cast after ESB was filmed... black junk = post filming = stunt with black junk. Never_ending_fett, yes the helmet I pointed out in the middle of the shelf is the same as the one with the dent picture posted.


Now, here are the things that lead me to believe that Banzai's cast is related to the stunt helmet.

1) The left cheek scar seems to match up pretty well in size and shape (excluding the diagonal cut in it that looks like it was introduced post-cast) to the stunt helmet's scar. The comparative resolutions make it jacked up, but the ESB is nowhere near as deep as the stunt or Banzai's. Therefore, this scar does not match the ESB Hero and it looks suspiciously like the stunt.

2) The left ear. [Outlined in black] The plates that these ears mount upon are different from helmet to helmet. They also seem integral to the helmet. The PP2 and PP3 have the highest left ear, the ROTJ is the next lowest, and the ESB has the lowest of all. This cast and the stunt cast in question are in the ROTJ-range or higher. The hole locations look very similar to the other helmets so that tells me that who ever worked on this helmet probably left this area alone.

3) The dent, of course. I'm willing to accept the stunt's dent marks as paint or laquer application or surface prep.

4) Art's cracks.

5) The mysterious RF ear. Whatever happened here, there's no good explanation. Regardless, what is remaining doesn't match the ESB helmet internal arrangment and it doesn't match any holes in the ESB helmet. The only idea I have is that they needed to make a durable piece so they shot a bolt straight into a block-RF ear. With that, I suppose they sought to remove the entire side in order to mount their own block-ear.

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Very good points...
again that just leads me to ask the same question I asked earlier.... I agree this is a Stunt, def on board with that... but now, where was the Stunt Casted from?? To me, it Came from a Base helmet....Which one?? :confused
I think the points that Art shows, leans toward the ESB hero... IMO.

What I like about this is that it provides a likely explanation for some of the "damage" we see today that screams left-over, un-stripped masking fluid. Take that left inner cheek scratch for example. I can imagine how a painted helmet with some masking fluid here or there would get stripped of the forgotten masking fluid during the mold release. Especially if any of the masking fluid had any tiny holes/wear exposing enough of it for silicone rubber to get a grip and rip!

Since I don't have any experience re-casting painted Fett helmets, it makes me wonder if the molding and casting process took its toll on the color saturation too.

Spideyfett said:

Very good points...
again that just leads me to ask the same question I asked earlier.... I agree this is a Stunt, def on board with that... but now, where was the Stunt Casted from?? To me, it Came from a Base helmet....Which one?? :confused
I think the points that Art shows, leans toward the ESB hero... IMO.

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That's part of why I'm thinking the black tar on the ESB hero as it is today might be leftovers from the casting process. I might be way off on the rest of my thoughts, but I think at least that part is a pretty good possibility!

SingleSeat said:

What I like about this is that it provides a likely explanation for some of the "damage" we see today that screams left-over, un-stripped masking fluid.

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ooooo that makes so much sense! Great thought!

Spideyfett said:

Very good points...
again that just leads me to ask the same question I asked earlier.... I agree this is a Stunt, def on board with that... but now, where was the Stunt Casted from?? To me, it Came from a Base helmet....Which one?? :confused
I think the points that Art shows, leans toward the ESB hero... IMO.

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That's almost what I'm saying. So far, the line might look like Original Sculpt >> ESB Hero >> ROTJ Stunts >> Pete R.'s private work >> Banzai88, but what happened with Pete and then between Pete and Banzai is up in the air. Heck of a long chain to figure out. Whether Banzai's came from another mold/buck/helmet/etc. from Pete or whether it came from a direct mold of the Stunt #1...there's where the answer lies. Time has also probably lost the answer in the RF ear, is my guess. I was merely pointing out those very specific parts that had to come from the ESB Hero. NEF, and that those "tar" marks are the same shape, size, and location as on the ESB.

I don't mean this in a bad way, but all the characteristics that we've become so fond of over the years for the ESB Hero don't seem to have migrated to Banzai's cast. Who knows, mabye that's because some of those issues were generated by handling and casting it (not including the visor corner crack).

WOW! Very good discussion going on here! Now, what I am trying to figure out is, with very close similarities between the ESB, ESB stunt, and ROTJ stunt helmets, how did the film crew distinguish between each version? I'm thinking maybe they etched or wrote something inside each helmet to tell the difference? I for one neglected to pay close attention to the inside of the helmet when I was observing it. Can anyone shed some light on this?

I don't recall my friend saying the instructor did any work on it. He just said he [my friend] was able to make the cast. So SS's line may be more like: Original Sculpt >> ESB Hero >> ROTJ Stunts >> Banzai88.

And FYI, it does have this anomaly BM points out:

Banzai88 said:

. So SS's line may be more like: Original Sculpt >> ESB Hero >> ROTJ Stunts >> Banzai88.

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thanks for Clarifying Barry... I think that's more on point too.

Banzai88 said:

I don't recall my friend saying the instructor did any work on it. He just said he [my friend] was able to make the cast...And FYI, it does have this anomaly BM points out:...

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Indeed. However, that characteristic isn't ESB-specific -- it is seen on each version. So that helps show good linneage to a real helmet of some kind.

I was just saying that the information between making the original stunt helmets up to Pete and yourself isn't complete enough to make a solid chain of events that we can really hang our hat on. Nothing bad, it's just we don't know enough about the details...

SingleSeat said:

Indeed. However, that characteristic isn't ESB-specific -- it is seen on each version. So that helps show good linneage to a real helmet of some kind.

I was just saying that the information between making the original stunt helmets up to Pete and yourself isn't complete enough to make a solid chain of events that we can really hang our hat on. Nothing bad, it's just we don't know enough about the details...

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I think if Brak's and Banzai88 get together with this helmet, that the history, "names" and details will def match the lineage line of how and when this helmet was casted... .

so, in summary up to this point, what charateristics does this share with what helmets, cause if I'm reading it right it sounds like it shares unique details with several different helmets that don't necessarily share the same details with eachother. Then what does that tell us about lineage of known helmets that we might not have known before, anything?

Spideyfett said:

thanks for Clarifying Barry... I think that's more on point too...

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The only problem with that is that if we are to assume the pictures of the stunt #1 are showing an RF ear cap mount that is the same as the Hero helmets (integral), and we are to assume the stunt was cast from the ESB Hero, something happend there. To cast the ESB hero, or any helmet, there really isn't a reason to touch that area. IOW, it doesn't look like a helmet just got dropped in a mold and viola, ESB stunt replica. Something happened that can't be explained.

SingleSeat said:

The only problem with that is that if we are to assume the pictures of the stunt #1 are showing an RF ear cap mount that is the same as the Hero helmets (integral), and we are to assume the stunt was cast from the ESB Hero, something happend there. To cast the ESB hero, or any helmet, there really isn't a reason to touch that area. IOW, it doesn't look like a helmet just got dropped in a mold and viola, ESB stunt replica. Something happened that can't be explained.

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Somewhere in the lineage, a cast was made of the ESB hero, the RF ear hump on the dome was chopped off and filled in then this new version without the hump was cast to make at least some of the stunt versions?:confused

Not exactly... the Stunt #2 very clearly has the upper rf ear platform in place.

Perhaps the upper RF ear platform was removed due to the seam line running through it? Maybe if the registration was off, it made this area unuseable?

I have 0 experience casting, but the Banzai looks like a direct cast without modification so what it was cast from didn't have the ear platform... would a look at the inside in that area prove that?

This why I said what I did above. We've come a long way in two days, but we're missing a step somewhere along the casting chain of events.

Banzai88 mentioned the seam line had been bondoed over, maybe the platform area was removed and filled over also? Perhaps not all the casts were off in this respect so did not need modification?