Nov 5, 2013, 12:26 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
I love my BatNinja vest and plan to continue using it.
Nov 6, 2013, 9:18 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
No, this information was never re-posted over here on TDH quite bluntly because I Major and I were busy trying to get that house in order. As the Detachment Leader for the 501st BHG Detachment, it's one of my duties to do my best to get those CRLs in working order. As you all know, Boba Fett is one of if not the most difficult and complicated costumes that the 501st accepts for membership. We've taken on the HUGE task of writing, editing, collecting pictures for and maintaining those CRLs. The fact that most of the information comes from grainy still photos over 30 years old is difficult at best.
Opinions change, information is leaked, information is dug up& "facts" change when it comes to these costumes. I'll be perfectly honest with you all, I've been working on my Fett costume on and off since 2001. I've had the same vest this entire time made from the tackle twill material that Chris Caudill (BobaFettish) found a million years ago and it was sewn by TK-409's contact. I can't even tell you if that's shiny or dull since it's weathered, old and since both sides have a sheen.
I think the most simple and easiest way to fix this is to either talk to someone who knows 100% because they've handled the real vest OR we simply remove the dull/shiny debate completely from the CRL. So long as it's made from the correct tackle twill material we call it good to go. That way both are accepted and no one needs to get heartburn over it.
I'd love to hear from Gino and Art on this (and the green vs. gray visor debate). I'll give Art a ring.
Thanks everyone& Just be cool and try to understand that these CRLs are a MASSIVE project to undertake. Have some patience, understanding and respect for those of us trying to get it straight.
Nov 6, 2013, 9:50 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Bob, like I told Major, we appreciate the hard work that you guys have put in for this. I hope everyone understands that trying to build the CRL off of old photos is very difficult at best, even talking to people that handled the suit wouldn't be a real benefit because they might not really remember anything about the vest.
IMHO, I think the idea you mentioned about removing the shiny not shiny requirement is the best compromise. This way people like Batninja, LS4U, Arkady, and others do not have to alter their manufacturing processes; as long as the correct material is used, it should be fine.
Nov 6, 2013, 11:27 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Nov 7, 2013, 1:45 AM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
I think the best way is to remove the compromise and yet ensure the topmakers follow the newest requirements. The fact is that many of us have older builds that are considered the top of the line. So don't hurt the builders that help us.. Have them change to fit the new build, but "grandfather" the old builds in. We do their best to be boba Fett (my suit is at $4000 and rising), and have fought long odds to be here (with $4000+ Costumes made by hand). This hobby is less about "perfection" and more about the "persuit of perfection." I hope that TDH and the 501st are more about comraderie and less about perfection, because we are all about Boba Fett, not about a "picture."
I am here to be Boba Fett. I want the best suit made. The fact is that people have to make it based on pictures, video, stills, and popular opinion has nothing to do with my desire to be perfect. Let the operators and makers work before we lose this amazing resource for creativity!
I love you all, and need more help than I can give,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nov 7, 2013, 2:27 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Hey Bob I can help here.
All the visors for the fett helmets were smoke grey including the ESB hero. It was never green.
Reason we all thought it was green in the past was because of the way it appeared in some photos with tricky lighting (mostly the AOSW shots).
Nov 7, 2013, 3:23 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Nov 7, 2013, 7:56 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Or perhaps making it a Level 3 certification requirement? I think I got the last BatNinja vest and neck seal combo with the shiny side out on the vest and the dull side out on the neck seal. Just arrived today...
High Speed Low Drag
Nov 7, 2013, 9:39 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Thing is its an opinion not a fact either way...we KNOW its tackle twill but not what side is actually out...so making it a requirement is purely wrong for people who already have vests one way or the other. And you would be stuck with or take a hit selling it off.
Nov 9, 2013, 9:06 AM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
So over on the BHG, they look like they are leaning towards just keeping the vest requirement to be the tackle twill fabric and not specific to which side is out for any tier level. Nothing is set in stone yet, but Bob (webchief) is pushing this as its so hard to tell for certain going by 30+ yr old pictures. I know some of you pop on there so you may wanna check it out periodically until they finalize it...but so far it looks like either would be acceptable for any tier level of the 501st.
Nov 9, 2013, 2:37 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
I think it's very silly to make any sort of "requirements" based on a perception of accuracy which is not in itself accurate.
Tackle twill, while commonly accepted as the most correct looking material for the vest, neck, and glove backs, is certainly not what was originally used. The pattern and sheen are decent matches but the history of the fabric precludes it from being an exact match to the original material.
The vest and neckseal are both shiny. There are different levels of shine from suit to suit that differ by weathering, dying, and washing I believe. Also it is possible they used different material when making the ROTJ vest.
For ESB, the vest is the same as the PP2 but maybe with more weathering. And the neck and vest have about the same levels of sheen.
Boba Fett Empire Strikes Back Costume - The Dented Helmet Gallery
I have been looking into different fabrics with the Clothears costumes people. A very accurate vest is forthcoming but may not be made with tackle twill, or with whatever side out people think is correct. But it will be accurate to what is seen on the original suits.
It is accurate for the vest, neck, and gloves to be made of material with a shine, and correct grain pattern. No stipulations should be made about tackle twill specifically. And the level of shine of the tackle twill, if used, needs to be reduced with weathering.
Nov 10, 2013, 5:11 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
I understand all of your points, and im sure you are correct on most, if not all of them, but the fact of the matter is that the 501st has requirements to join, so they have to give you something to go by. The 501st, as accurate as most members can be, is not perfect and the requirements can only be based on what the community (being here or other places) has concluded. Its been pretty standard that the tackle twill is the closest thing that can be easily bought so thats why it was set as a requirement/standard.
This was for a tier 2 level (more accurate than the basic). Due to the blue ray showing the vest so clearly, they were determining if there should be a more specific look for the higher levels, thats all it is.
Nov 10, 2013, 6:15 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
So how do we change the 501st "accuracy"?
Is it the community's opinion about whether something is correct?
Or is it whether something correct is correct?
I agree there needs to be standards, but are you telling me that if I show up with my new vest and suit and the material doesn't have the reverse side out or whatever (not correct btw) or is made out of a material more correct than tackle twill, I will be considered less accurate than somebody's parts that are actually less accurate? That's messed up.
Nov 10, 2013, 6:50 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
So if YOU can find an obtainable fabric that better matches the actual fabric, or you know what the actual fabric is, all you need is some evidence/proof of it, and it can 100% change the standards. So, No, you wouldn't be considered less accurate than somebody's parts that are actually less accurate
Nov 10, 2013, 9:56 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
At this point, the tackle twill is still the best looking. But not what was originally used. People have known this for a long time. Other options may come in the future.
Someone had an tackle twill vest but used an inaccurate pattern. The vest would not look right when compared to an original.
Someone had a vest made of a less accurate material but the pattern was far more accurate. The vest would look right but still wouldn't technically be right.
So what does the 501st say about vest patterns? I would think that would be much more important than the material it was made of or which side was facing out.
I appreciate the job the 501st has to do to set standards. But Batninja started this thread because the question was what side of the material was supposed to be outwards to be accurate and his concern about those 501st standards affecting his customers.
The fabric is too reflective by nature of what its real world purpose is. If you turn it inside out it might be too dull. Has anyone tried making a vest with the material inside out? Actually Clothers is experimenting with just that among other things.
Setting a standard as to what side faces out seems odd. Having the vest and neckseal looking the same seems a sound choice. And if you look at the reference, they are both shiny.
But have both shiny in, shiny out, one in/one out shouldnt make a difference. And certainly seems very picky when the vest or neckseal made from the stuff likely has an inaccurate pattern/details to begin with which are Far more obviously incorrect.
I would set your "Level 2" standards to simply say the vests and neckseals must be made of accurate looking material (tackle twill or similar) and have reasonably accurate patterns.
It would be very difficult to set standards beyond that I would think.
Just my .02
Nov 10, 2013, 10:23 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
You are on point with everything
The pattern is def more important than the material, especially for basic clearance.
I believe the CRL says " tackle twill or similar material"
Yea you are correct, setting standards much beyond "accurate looking material" and "reasonably accurate patterns" is near impossible. But that is what the higher levels are for....the folks who want to go that extra mile, and get the most accurate to our (the communities) knowledge. They never had Level 2 or 3 for the bounty hunters, its a new thing, so they are just trying to figure out, how far to go for those levels is all they are doing.
I think what BN was concerned about was people shooting for those higher levels, so he wanted to be sure his vests would be cleared for those, but i dont think it will be an issue.
I Agree that everything should stay as its been..just saying tackle twill or similar material, since we dont know exactly what material it actually is. I think level 2 or 3 should only be "upped" if we discover what the actual fabric was.
I think both the neckseal and vest material should match regardless of which way the fabric is used. Most makers do this nowadays i believe.
An example of this if we knew what the screen used material was would go something like this:
Basic standards - correctly patterned tackle twill or similar fabric vest
Level2 - correctly patterned Tackle twill vest
level3 -correctly patterned vest using [screen used] fabric
That is only an example and is not any offical 501st thing..just trying to lay out how the levels work
Last edited by Darth Voorhees; Nov 10, 2013 at 10:34 PM.
High Speed Low Drag
Nov 11, 2013, 11:14 AM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Lou thing is theyre talking about setting a standard in place, for something they have half information on. If they inforce a standard and then change it up later on when more information in available people are going to be in an uproar after spending $$ on the vest now to get that approval. From READING Webchiefs reply i dont think he has intentions of making the inside or outside of the tackle twill a requirement...because its up to interpretation of a 30 year old picture. NOT facts. And if you look at the ESB PHOTOs not on the computer screen....the vest almost looks like it went through the laundry with the ESB flight suit and picked up some of that dye...
Nov 11, 2013, 12:23 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
I was agreeing with Bob, when i said "I Agree that everything should stay as its been..just saying tackle twill or similar material, since we dont know exactly what material it actually is. I think level 2 or 3 should only be "upped" if we discover what the actual fabric was". Also as it is, the requirement is tackle twill fabric, i dont think the side was specified.
Fett 4 Real said:
The point of the discussion started on the BHG was to see if there was a reason to change a standard, not to just set one. They were asking about it...how are they to know without asking the community where some of the most knowledgeable people of the topic are. Hence the conclusion was it should be left as is.
That said, Unfortunately, setting a standard and then changing it (for the better) is common place in 501st standards..when new information is discovered, the standards improve, and older members are grandfathered in, so no one HAS to change their gear, although a lot do. If standards didnt change, the legion would look ridiculous today knowing what we know now. Its just the nature of the group. Evolution so to speak.
Last edited by Darth Voorhees; Nov 11, 2013 at 12:34 PM.
Nov 11, 2013, 6:11 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Darth Voorhees said:
Lou, I couldn't have said it any better..........
High Speed Low Drag
Nov 11, 2013, 7:18 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Setting a bogus standard...even if thats the way its been done doesnt mean it SHOULD be done now. With people with common sense running things especially. If you set a standard for one side or the other out based on what YOU think is right thats just wrong, since we know its not tackle twill in the first place. If you want to be picky about levels of accuracy and such then maybe you should look at the helmets, Blasters, colors of armor and other parts etc...there are better things to enforce. This isnt a solid white TK, there are SOOO many parts to the Fett that get overlooked.
Nov 11, 2013, 7:53 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Agree with Fett4Real and DarthVoorhees.
Although I understand some of the difficulties that come with creating standards, it seems like things are sort of coming to a head when it comes to just how accurate someone's costume must be to reach a certain level. That process has to be very subjective to the applicant's costume and should really go into the points Fett 4 Real makes before the costume is considered a level 2 or 3 or whatever is decided.
I think the costumes should be ranked by their overall accuracy and finish. If someone shows up with a less than stellar costume but it meets the basic requirements already in place, they are a legionnaire.
If someone shows up with a one of a kind costume with parts made from the screen used suit and their costume looks almost identical to the real one, they are a legionnaire but get to be Fett at high profile events.
Trying to set specific standards for a stormtrooper or something that there can be and is alot of at an event makes sense. You can have your FX guys and your Centurions all together, or just the Centurions for other parts of the event. ]
But something like Fett is a harder thing. What if I want to be the PP1 Fett and my costume is extremely accurate. It is still Boba Fett and nobody is going to understand or care about the different color scheme or details. But I could still be a level 3 Fett even though my costume looks drastically different from an ESB or ROTJ Fett.
Being technically accurate to the original costume should be less important to the 501st than how the overall costume appears. If they want to start setting standards based on technical accuracy then it is important to get the info right.
I know the fellas were basing that "what side of the tackle twill faces out" thing on pictures and common folklore that has been floating around since about 2007 and I'm not trying to go after them. But IMO it would be wrong to seek to set a standard for this or other details when so many more prominent and well documented things should have to be correct for someone's costume to reach a higher level.
If any 501st people want some ideas for what those things should be, I would open up the discussion here where there are many more people who have studied or made any or all of those parts of the costume.
Nov 11, 2013, 8:32 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
Dom...noone is setting bogus standards! They are trying to find out what is considered accurate so they can set a standard thats correct! that's why the discussion was brought here...like i mentioned in my previous post!
Also, who said other components aren't being scrutinized as well? You can only go by one piece at a time. this discussion is about the vest. For a level 2 of course other components must be more accurate as well. Your right there ARE SO many parts on Fett that get overlooked...they are trying to correct these things...again, that's why they are asking. They recently were discussing the visor color as well, we KNOW it is smoke for ESB so that discussion was simpler, but now that is fixed. Basic standards require a dark color visor smoke or green is acceptable, level 2 it has to be smoke. there were discussions about the color of the shoulder studs as well...so as you see, they are looking over the entire costume...again,they can only do one piece at a time! they arent just scrutinizing the vest..that would be ridiculous no? lol Its ALOT of work because Fett has so many components, and i dont envy them in the least, but you have to start somewhere!
K, Being technically accurate to the original costume IS less important to the 501st than how the overall costume appears, for BASIC standards. The standards for basic are already set and are just fine. However, what they are trying to set up now is a standard for higher levels, where the smaller details are looked at. these are optional levels for people who want to go the extra mile, thats all it is.
Also you are correct, If the 501st wants to start setting standards based on technical accuracy, then it is important to get the info right....and THAT is why this discussion came to be in the first place. they were asking about info so they CAN get it right for higher levels of clearance where the accuracy gets more technical. Im not sure why this point seems so confusing. I guess the whole 501st levels thing seems to be confusing, but it is really simple.
Last edited by Darth Voorhees; Nov 11, 2013 at 9:16 PM.
Nov 11, 2013, 10:43 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
They were not asking at all. Batninja started this thread.
I dont think they are doing anything particularly wrong by wanting to look at all the parts and figure out what is accurate and what is not. But again it seems odd to have little things come before big things.
For example, the GMH is a PP2 style helmet. You can make it look ESB but it will always be inferior to something like the upcoming eFX or the FPH2. So an ESB style GMH with a grey visor would be considered "level 2" while a much more accurate helmet casting that may have a green visor would be considered less accurate? (the eFX will have the correct grey visor. It was just an example)
What about paintjobs? I know a good or bad paintjob would be much more noticeable than the visor color that took someone actually handing the real ESB helmet to even say for sure what color it was.
So I get that they are going over the costume and setting standards. I encourage this as long as the standards are correct. But for every part they look at there will have to be a separate checkmark on their ranking tier.
How do you go about setting the standards for replicas of found parts? In some cases the replicas are almost identical. But if my costume with replicas looks just the same as a guy's with real parts, he should only get kudos for going for the utmost technical accuracy. But if overall our costumes looked the same, we should be at the same level.
Meanwhile there are other glaring areas far more visible that have not been considered.
For instance the jumpsuit and vest.
There are many makers and they do fine work. Some are always considered to make a better or "more accurate" product. There are differences that appeal to one buyer or another. But most fall within current 501st standards.
But still in most cases the parts have incorrect or missing details that only become obvious when you teach yourself to see them. But they look enough like the real parts that it might not matter when seen as an ensemble.
Anyone remember that Jeremy Bulloch costume? There have been many discoveries and improvements since that costume was made and you know what? It still looks awesome. Who is going to be the one to tell him he isnt a level 2 because he has toggle switches instead of momentary?
The finishing work on that costume makes it look quite alot like the real thing and so I think that should be considered much more than tiny details if we had to rank it.
Back to the discussion about tackle twill.
Here is a teaser for the vest Clothears Costumes will soon release. It is a prototype and improvements have been made since. The final vest will have all the accurate details including some never before seen on a replica.
Will the 501st care more about the fact that this particular vest is not made of tackle twill? (Clothears will offer tackle twill as an option) Or will they care that it looks very much like the original vests in shape and detail?
What about having the neckseal attached to the jumpsuit?
I am proud to have helped make these as accurate as they can be, I dont want to see somebody be told they are not eligible to be the highest level Fett just because they have a non-tackle twill version. Because even if they are not as technically accurate in their fabric choice as stuff made of the tackle twill, they still have a huge advantage in technical accuracy when it comes to more obvious details. What about two people who both have Clothears parts and one has tackle twill, the other has the alternate fabric? Would one be considered for a higher level even though they look extremely similar and both look like the original costume? If yes then the 501st is going to have to get very specific.
So it is not so simple from a technical standpoint. There are many possible scenarios that would have to be considered if the 501st wants to get further into the nitty gritty. They would possibly have to specify a list of makers that provide approved parts for each level and while that may result in alot nicer looking Fetts, I fear it would hurt the goodwill in the community when it comes to makers.
So I think the only thing to do is keep the standards as broad as possible, or change the ranking system.
I would change it to be a point system based on each of those parts and if you upgrade your costume to acquire enough points, you go up a level.
Also considered would be paintjobs etc. resulting in your established Level 1, 2,3 etc. But someone who had a level 1 could read the requirements for more accuracy points and if they desired, could upgrade those components to become level 2.
For example if I had a costume that met the established standards for a level 1 Fett I would have say, 27 points.
Say I needed 30 points to be level 2
I could look at the stats my costume was given by the 501st board of review or whatever and see something like I had scored low on my helmet's paintjob and overall accuracy.
So I buy a eFX and go up a few points to like 35 points and become level 2.
A month later my grey visor gets scratched and I replace it with a green one for whatever reason.
Now the way the current system works means that even though I have a helmet that is top shelf, I would no longer be a level 2.
But in the type of system I propose not having a grey visor would only get you docked a point or two.
And, if in a variation of this example, not having a grey visor lost me enough points to knock me back to level 1 and I couldnt find a grey one for some reason; back I go to my costume stats and see that if I upgrade a different component of my costume it will earn me enough points to put me back into level 2.
Maybe that is just crazy talk and I'll admit I dont know how the 501st works, but it seems more fair than to focus on very small technical things about a costume that may possibly disqualify it from being a higher rank while someone else's costume that has glaring inaccuracies that the 501st has not accessed can reach that higher rank.
And this is from one of the worst accuracy Nazis there is!
I'm not saying I dont want people to be rewarded for accuracy. But I dont think the things brought up so far should matter as much as the overall resemblance of their costume to the real one.
Nov 11, 2013, 11:37 PM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?
They were asking, (in another thread) and thats why BN started this thread...
In all honesty the 501st doesnt go as far as we do here. Noone loses level 2 if they replace their visor with a green one. Costumes are judged on a one by one basis, so your example, "the GMH is a PP2 style helmet. You can make it look ESB but it will always be inferior to something like the upcoming eFX or the FPH2. So an ESB style GMH with a grey visor would be considered "level 2" while a much more accurate helmet casting that may have a green visor would be considered less accurate? (the eFX will have the correct grey visor. It was just an example) What about paintjobs? I know a good or bad paintjob would be much more noticeable than the visor color that took someone actually handing the real ESB helmet to even say for sure what color it was"....so no it doesnt really go by "more accurate or less accurate" per se. Its more like ....you have your basic standards..then if you have a, b, and c..your level 2, if you have a,b,c,d,e your level 3. Its just adding on more accurate details...not really who is more accurate than who. Here is the CRL for the ESB Fett..maybe looking that over will better help you understand how the levels work. they dont go into that much detail, i doubt they ever will.
501st Legion: Vader's Fist
Fact of the matter is there is no way to keep track of everyone. There are over 7,000 active members. Its also not as intricate or thorough as your example above. You build your gear, you apply, you get cleared and thats it. No one checks it periodically or anything. Right now i still have an ESB TK on file as centurion and i dont even have the costume anymore (but to plan to build another). This is why there is such a range of good to bad costumes in the legion. Some peopel care about accuracy some people dont..some care more about the charity work than thier costumes accuracy, and ya know what, thats fine. As long as the overall costume "look right" its fine.
Level 2 would be more accurate than basic, and level 3 more so than that, but it will never be 100% dead on...its just not realistic. Also in the 501st materials have to be obtainable. We cant require someone to have a specific make of helmet, or vest or anything. Again sometimes its just not possible. When you start going that far its to much for a charity based costuming group. the 501st isnt as thorough as we are here.
Your points system sounds interesting but it would likely not work in such a large group. The individual garrisons clear their own members so there is a bit of a range of accuracy...and also in caring how accurate a member is. The point system would be alot more work than i think any detachment would want to deal with.
The clothers stuff is great looking and if you helped with it, then im sure its the most accurate yet. I doubt anyone will get rejected for level 2 for having their stuff. When the clothers stuff is released im sure they will check it out and it will be acceptable for higher levels...like i said before when new stuff comes out and new information is obtained, the standards can be tweaked. Honestly the levels mean nothing..its just to note a persons extra effort. it doesn't get you anything except sometimes a patch or badge on your forum profile. Its not that serious. I honestly decided im not going to apply for any levels because im not concerned with that...im happy with my Fett and i dont need a level 2 clearance
I cant say what the legion would do for alot of your questions because i dont run the whole legion lol. Alot of times it goes to a vote within the detachment....but they have to have a happy medium within the levels thats obtainable. There is no standard on replica parts to using real found parts...as long as the parts look enough like they are supposed to its fine, at least thats what i understand it to be. do in my garrison. Alot of members join more for the charity work we do than the costumes, so they dont focus on them as much like we do here.
Anyway, K i always respect your knowledge and i know you know more than alot of people do about Fett gear. I personally like to get the most accurate stuff i can to the best of our knowledge, but of course sometimes money can prohibit that, so we do the best we can with what we have or can afford. I think i have contributed all i can to this discussion, i dont know everything about how the 501st sets standard/ does things, only my garrison and the detachments i belong to.
Last edited by Darth Voorhees; Nov 23, 2013 at 2:22 PM.
Reason: Italicized the quote for easier reading
Nov 12, 2013, 12:14 AM - Re: 501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?