Steve Patino PP2 buck, earliest descendant of PP2 helmet Discovered! :O

[Bobajefferson]

Ancestry of Preproduction #2 Boba Fett Helmet or “The Second Prototype.”
CREDIT TO ART ANDREWS WHO IS HEAVILY CITED AND WHOSE TEXT IS REPRODUCED IN THIS POST. WITHOUT HIS SCHOLARSHIP MUCH OF THIS INFORMATION WOULD REMAIN UNKNOWN.

• BACKGROUND
• I recently acquired the Steve Patino PP2 buck in the Los Angeles area. It is the original first casting of the PP2 helmet by Don Post Studios and the only one ever made with the original mold which was damaged by Patino. This casting was repaired, and used to create a second mold, which the Ken Tarallo plug and all others descend from.

• HISTORY
• Preproduction #2 Boba Fett helmet is created in 1978 as one of six helmets.
• PP2 helmet is seen in all pre-Empire Strikes Back publicity photos, 2 life-sized standees, the Kenner Boba Fett action figure packaging, and 12” figure packaging.
• In the early 1980’s PP2 helmet is loaned to Don Post Studios to be cast for their proposed line of replica helmets.
• Taken from Don Post Studios soon afterward. Resurfaces in 2010 and is bought by TDH member for undisclosed sum.
• Prominent scratches were now present on the helmet, running from the center of the dome down to the lower left back of the helmet.
• PP2 helmet arrives at Don Post Studios.
• Steve Patino molds PP2 helmet using a flexible glove mold.
• PP2 helmet becomes locked in glove mold.
• Steve Patino cuts the glove mold from dome to bottom of helmet, unlocking the PP2 helmet, and unfortunately leaving jagged score marks in the original helmet.
• Damaged glove mold is repaired and becomes a “waste” mold to create a first-generation casting of the PP2 helmet.
• First generation casting of the PP2 helmet has seam puttied and sanded and is remolded, creating a second-generation glove mold with a hard “mother” mold. This is the newly discovered PATINO PP2 buck.
• The second-generation mold is filled with Ultracal to create the Ken Tarallo plug.
• Ken Tarallo plug was taken from the second-generation mold. Mold is damaged by Tarallo in the process.
• Malone PP2 buck is taken from the second-generation mold after Ken Tarallo had damaged it. Thus, this damage is evident on the so-called Malone PP2 buck.
• Malone creates an additional 10 limited copiesof the helmet from this original Malone PP2 buck.
• Grant McCune casts fiberglass mold of PP2 helmet from damaged second generation plug to create the Grant McCune plug.
• Don Post Studios refines the second-generation mold, creating a “third-generation” mold made of alloy. The overall size of the helmets also decreases.
• Lava Helmet and Mystery Helmet are created with third-generation mold, thus their irregularities and material composition.

​

 

[Bobajefferson]

Malone copy

 

[MinuteFett]

Incredibly beautiful and what a great find!! Any plans for this? Or just a display piece?

 

[Bobajefferson]

Incredibly beautiful and what a great find!! Any plans for this? Or just a display piece?

Thank you. Not sure for the moment. Eventually plan to sell it I think, but I want to get my history straight first. If there are any others prototype PP2 helmet castings that I missed please let me know?

 

[Art Andrews]

This is very very cool. Have you been able to put your helmet next to one of the unaltered castings from the Patino mold?

 

[Bobajefferson]

This is very very cool. Have you been able to put your helmet next to one of the unaltered castings from the Patino mold?

From my understanding there was only one casting from Patino’s original mold, which is this one. Have not had the privilege to see that “waste” mold itself. He used this casting as the hard base for a second perfected mold. I have only seen castings from this second-generation mold (Ken Tarallo, etc.)

 

[intwenothor]

This is very interesting. I'm intrigued by the appararent difference in the first cut repair area as that seems different from the KT buck, and I'm also intereseted in the appraent lack of the second cut mark as shown on the KT plug and as also referenced by the tape mark on Art's GM cast. Those are areas worthy of further exploration.

I'm struggling with the apparent disparity between the sharpness on the KT and the GM not exhibited here and some other distortions not exhibited on either. Whilst this new cast opens some interesting areas of discussion, especially concering Art's second master theory (see above), as per his 2010 articles and the old RPF thread on the same subject, I don't yet see that this can be the father of either the KT or the GM. This cast seems to exhibit a lot of traits that aren't apparent in either i.e. it looks like a worse cast, and those casts already have sufficient issues of their own without trying to work out why this cast should be their father and yet look worse in a number of other ways.

It may point to there being another mould, or cast, but without further information, or better shots of some angles, I think this needs further discussion,

 

[Bobajefferson]

This is very interesting. I'm intrigued by the appararent difference in the first cut repair area as that seems different from the KT buck, and I'm also intereseted in the appraent lack of the second cut mark as shown on the KT plug and as also referenced by the tape mark on Art's GM cast. Those are areas worthy of further exploration.

I'm struggling with the apparent disparity between the sharpness on the KT and the GM not exhibited here and some other distortions not exhibited on either. Whilst this new cast opens some interesting areas of discussion, especially concering Art's second master theory (see above), as per his 2010 articles and the old RPF thread on the same subject, I don't yet see that this can be the father of either the KT or the GM. This cast seems to exhibit a lot of traits that aren't apparent in either i.e. it looks like a worse cast, and those casts already have sufficient issues of their own without trying to work out why this cast should be their father and yet look worse in a number of other ways.

It may point to there being another mould, or cast, but without further information, or better shots of some angles I think this needs further discussion,

The second cut mark caused by Ken Tarallo would not be evident on this helmet because this cast was created before it and was formed by the first flawed mold. To quote Art Andrews from 2010:
“When looking at the dome and back of both Ken Tarallo Ultracal plug and the Grant McCune fiberglass helmet the damaged seam from the original glove mold can be clearly seen. However, the seam from the cut glove mold has been repaired, puttied in and sanded. This repair is CAST in to both the Ultracal plug and the fiberglass casting meaning either the mold itself was repaired OR THERE WAS A 1ST GENERATION CASTING MADE AND REPAIRED and then the Ken Tarallo and Grant McCune fiberglass helmets are from a SECOND GENERATION MOLD.”

Ultimately, this helmet has the burlap crackle texture of the early castings, has the original damage from the top of the dome to the back of the helmet documented to have been caused by Steve Patino, which has been “puttied in and sanded”, and it is this damage that is evident on all later incarnations if the PP2 helmet, including Ken Tarallo’s. There are other anomalies to be discussed, but at the very least these factors cannot be ignored.

 

[intwenothor]

Yes, it was always Art's assertion that this was the case regarding the first cut repair however it has never been proved that the first cut repair was cast into the KT buck and therefore that the GM must have been of the same generation. That may be correct. It may not. The only way to truly know that would be to poke around in the KT, but as ultracal is pourous you could do that and still not truly know.

Whilst there is some credence to Art's theory on that there is also considerable scope for discussion on the very same issue. I think you are making a number of assumptions that await an actual factual confirmation. Making those sorts of assumptions does not help the correct answers rise to the top. I do think that this cast is interesting but before further discussion and analysis I have not yet seen anything that confirms your assertions, and, as I stated; this cast has a number of issues not present in either the KT or the GM i.e. it appears a worse cast.

You have an interesting thing in your possession that is worthy of further discussion. To assume it is what you have stated it is based on the material you have shared is not objective; it might be what you say it is, which I doubt on the material here, or it might be something else entirely.

 

[Bobajefferson]

Yes, it was always Art's assertion that this was the case regarding the first cut repair however it has never been proved that the first cut repair was cast into the KT buck and therefore that the GM must have been of the same generation. That may be correct. It may not. The only way to truly know that would be to poke around in the KT, but as ultracal is pourous you could do that and still not truly know.

Whilst there is some credence to Art's theory on that there is also considerable scope for discussion on the very same issue. I think you are making a number of assumptions that await an actual factual confirmation. Making those sorts of assumptions does not help the correct answers rise to the top. I do think that this cast is interesting but before further discussion and analysis I have not yet seen anything that confirms your assertions, and, as I stated; this cast has a number of issues not present in either the KT or the GM i.e. it appears a worse cast.

You have an interesting thing in your possession that is worthy of further discussion. To assume it is what you have stated it is based on the material you have shared is not objective; it might be what you say it is, which I doubt on the material here, or it might be something else entirely.

Upon close inspection, the helmet almost appears to have the scar in the location of Ken Tarallo’s, but it looks a bit more like Steve Patino’s...Either way, the area has been puttied up. Perhaps it is a transitional piece? opinions welcomed?!

 

[intwenothor]

Upon close inspection, the helmet almost appears to have the scar in the location of Ken Tarallo’s, but it looks a bit more like Steve Patino’s...Either way, the area has been puttied up. Perhaps it is a transitional piece? opinions welcomed?!

It's difficult to say based on the material you have posted. Your cast appear to be a PP2 derivative, the question is; at what point. The easy failings of the KT and the GM are around the keyslots, the 'first cut repair', and the second cut repair; the last is exhibited on the KT by the gouge in the cast and on the GM by the tape repair.

Your cast appears not to have any evidence of the second gouge repair, so that's worth exploration. On the KT this is a true gouge whereas on the GM there is the tape reparir. There also doesn't appear to be the repair around the orbital band as in present on both the KT and the GM where the rear left dome distortion is plain on those two casts.

Your cast seems to have less defintion than either of the aforementioned KT and GM so that raises other questions. It makes it tough to see it as as a father of either. It's difficult to judge based on the angles presented. At this time I don't see a a cast superior in either lineage or quality to the KT, the current best of this line, in terms of either lineage or pedigree.

 

[Bobajefferson]

It's difficult to say based on the material you have posted. Your cast appear to be a PP2 derivative, the question is; at what point. The easy failings of the KT and the GM are around the keyslots, the 'first cut repair', and the second cut repair; the last is exhibited on the KT by the gouge in the cast and on the GM by the tape repair.

Your cast appears not to have any evidence of the second gouge repair, so that's worth exploration. On the KT this is a true gouge whereas on the GM there is the tape reparir. There also doesn't appear to be the repair around the orbital band as in present on both the KT and the GM where the rear left dome distortion is plain on those two casts.

Your cast seems to have less defintion than either of the aforementioned KT and GM so that raises other questions. It makes it tough to see it as as a father of either. It's difficult to judge based on the angles presented. At this time I don't see a a cast superior in either lineage or quality to the KT, the current best of this line, in terms of either lineage or pedigree.

This clearly has an early from of the Steve Patino damage. It is a rough version admittedly, because Patino fu%£ed up the first mold. This was most likely one of several attempts to perfect the second mother mold which would be used by Tarallo. Do you have another example to show me that has this damage and has been puttied in? As theorized by Art. Perhaps this specific example was not made into the second mold, but it’s lineage and creation can be traced to the first failed attempts with the PP2.

 

[intwenothor]

I'm getting confused; are you calling this the 'Steve Patino buck' or is there some other buck you have knowledge of that I don't?

 

[Prepro2]

Really cool piece but am I right in thinking you said this is the original casting that all Pp2 casts came from?
There is no way that the KT plug and GMH helmets were cast from this as the glassing work on this casting is really poor from the look it has no smooth lines and glass mesh poking through all over it that said it does look like it was cast before those casts where made but done very badly and that’s not a dig at your piece because I think it’s very cool and another piece of the puzzle

 

[MinuteFett]

Molded the helmet and bust out a cast, here's some pics.
The funny thing I think is this, this buck was molded off of something that had a visor installed. These pics show the fiberglass/resin running behind the mandible in a nice even thickness. Not sure what this brings to light, but if anyone with more knowledge can chime in that would be appreciated.

 

[Funkyred]

Oh my days......

 

[intwenothor]

I take a month away and things take a turn! Great stuff.

This is very exciting, thank-you for posting the pictures of the plain white cast; it's so much easier to observe the detail. Funnily enough the same is true of the KT plug. Even when right next to it it's easier to observe the features on an unaltered cast in a uniform colour.

When I first saw these new pictures during the week I really wanted to look at one of the unaltered casts and compare but had to wait until the weekend to get into the loft and grab one. Even without having one in hand I was able to see a couple of things straight off the bat that grabbed my attention.

1). When looking at the right side shot there's no sag over the top of the rear orbital band. This is a feature on both the KT and the GM.
2). Where the helmet cast isn't heavily compromised some of the detail actually appears sharper than the KT.
3). The burlap texture is far more pronounced on this cast than the KT.

The last point is important and I was trying to work out how that could be working on the assumption that this cast was indicative of a there being an intermediary step between the PP2 and the KT i.e. that there was another cast of the PP2 that the KT came from.

I'd need more detailed shots of this white cast to be absolutely sure, I'd love a full 360 at the same distance, but it appears to me that the burlap texture pattern on the KT does not match the burlap pattern on this new discovery. I think that's fascinating and opens a whole other bunch of questions!

Those of you with one of the unaltered CT casts could try some comparisons as well. I'm not sure who got those, Major maybe?
I've also seen pics of some unaltered matt Grey casts floating around the last few years so perhaps someone who owns one of those could pipe up, assuming those have the same detail; I've never seen one in person.

 

[MinuteFett]

Here’s a ton more pictures I took of the helmet. Let me know if there’s a specific spot or place you’d like a picture of and I’ll gladly take it for you.

It’s super exciting to know that this might have a cool place in history!

 

[intwenothor]

To me these pictures imply the possibility of another mould. That's a speculation. Beyond that it's more speculation; it's possible that there was another attempt to mould the PP2 that leads to this cast. There are a number of factors that suggest the KT may would not have descended from the mould that produced this cast.

In my view this all still points to the KT being the best cast from this source. Best cast is not to suggest that the KT does not have significant issues of its own because clearly it does. This cast has issues all of its own. The GM seems to share most of the issues of the KT with some issue of its own as well.

If all three, or decent copies thereof, were in the same room at the same time then the qualities and lineage of each would be a lot easier to assess and quantify. If that happened then someone could consider the good and the bad of each cast. superjedi might be the best person to approach for that as he owns the GM.

 

[MinuteFett]

To me these pictures imply the possibility of another mould. That's a speculation. Beyond that it's more speculation; it's possible that there was another attempt to mould the PP2 that leads to this cast. There are a number of factors that suggest the KT may would not have descended from the mould that produced this cast.

In my view this all still points to the KT being the best cast from this source. Best cast is not to suggest that the KT does not have significant issues of its own because clearly it does. This cast has issues all of its own. The GM seems to share most of the issues of the KT with some issue of its own as well.

If all three, or decent copies thereof, were in the same room at the same time then the qualities and lineage of each would be a lot easier to assess and quantify. If that happened then someone could consider the good and the bad of each cast. superjedi might be the best person to approach for that as he owns the GM.

I’d be willing to ship my buck to you superjedi if you’re interested in doing a side by side comparison! That would be very very interesting to see. Or possibly we could meet at tdh booth next celebration!