Boba Fett fiberglass helmet comparison (dimensions, accuracy, weight, lineage, construction)

RamSkirata

Hunter
Dear Fett Comunity,

Out of a recent conversation on here came the idea for a comparison between available Fett fiberglass helmets. Initially only regarding the sturdiness / construction details, but I would be happy if people could add lineage and screen accuracy details, which I unfortunately am not knowledgeable enough to provide.
The goal would be to collect comprehensive information for folks in the process of deciding which helmet to buy.

Another goal would be to provide further resources for the Fett Helmet History thread.

Information wanted:
  • Weight (excluding Rangefinder, metal ears and interiour)
  • Fiberglass thickness if it can be measured
  • Dimensions
    • Dome circumference at the base
    • Overall height
    • Helmet Opening dimensions: width and length
  • Details regarding the screen acurate imperfections that we all love about the Boba helmet (as in: "wavy brow: is there, crack at the cheek: not there")

  • Standardized pictures would be welcome:
    • Front
    • Left Side
    • Right Side
    • Back
    • View from above
    • Intriour view
For now, I think keeping this to fiberglass helmets would be practical, as those are the most common helmets used and different materials bring with them totally different properties.

Also, excluding Rangefinders and, if apliccable, metal ears as well as helmet interiour would be a good Idea, since those would introduce a whole pallet of variables that dont help the comparison.

Please feel free to evaluate the idea and to add suggestions. I'd be very happy to see the idea resonate and a "library" built that benefits someone.

I'd be also really happy if someone could provide the above mentioned details for the screen used helmets. Ive searched the forum and found some info, but nothing too definitive and I am not qualified to make the call.
Maybe RafalFett or boba87fett or intwenothor ?

I will add said details for a 2012 Bobamaker helmet soon.
 
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intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
I think you're going to struggle with some of this. A lot of this.

Dimensions can be given but some aspects are difficult to accurately measure unless someone is using decent equipment. Previously I've seen wildly differing measurements given by different people of the same object or the same.person on the same object but taken on different occasions. Dome and circumference measurements are usually the trickiest. That line behind the right ear, that I highlighted in the history thread, is a good one because different people tend to be able to take it consistently because the calipers can be easily clamped on and it isn't subject to trimming. Trimming can massively affect certain aspects.

Weight and fibreglass thickness will also be tricky because weight will be dependent on fibreglass thickness and trimming. Fibreglass thickness will depend on how the maker was doing that day. You might get a range of figures rather than something you can lock down.

Lineage will always be tough because some people get very defensive about the stuff that they sell. Often posts about that will be subject to the maker asking the poster to remove the content, although I never understood why people acquiesce to such requests. My point is; don't expect such a thread not to lead to confrontation, even anger. You tend to end up with camps defending their positions. The problem with that is it's difficult for the uninitiated to work out which camp is right and you can't just assume that the person who sells HELMET A, and his mates and loyal customers, is not in the right just because they lack objectivity.

These new ESB casts that are floating around are a perfect example. Getting a truthful answer about exactly where those sit will be tricky.
Minutefett has stated that his helmet has been made 'utilising' a first generation ESB cast; what does that mean? I've asked, he's been on since then, but the question remains unanswered. He's not the only one, this is simply a recent example; when FP launched his FPH2, his stance was simply that no one should discuss it. When did that become okay? These are just examples and there are plenty of others over the years.

The issue you will have to contend with is money. Most people seem to get very passionate where it is involved. You need to understand that some of these helmet runs are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not that this means you shouldn't ask the questions.

As for screen used, sorry, I'm not your man. I have never been inside the archive. I've seen stuff at exhibitions but that's not the same. There are plenty of guys here who have been but the information that has publicly escaped over the years is a trickle as they are unwilling or unable to disclose (or a combination of both). I can relate to this; I have been privy to plenty of stuff where the first rule of fight club applies, so this isn't a criticism of those guys.
 

RamSkirata

Hunter
I think you're going to struggle with some of this. A lot of this.

Dimensions can be given but some aspects are difficult to accurately measure unless someone is using decent equipment. Previously I've seen wildly differing measurements given by different people of the same object or the same.person on the same object but taken on different occasions. Dome and circumference measurements are usually the trickiest. That line behind the right ear, that I highlighted in the history thread, is a good one because different people tend to be able to take it consistently because the calipers can be easily clamped on and it isn't subject to trimming. Trimming can massively affect certain aspects.

Weight and fibreglass thickness will also be tricky because weight will be dependent on fibreglass thickness and trimming. Fibreglass thickness will depend on how the maker was doing that day. You might get a range of figures rather than something you can lock down.

Lineage will always be tough because some people get very defensive about the stuff that they sell. Often posts about that will be subject to the maker asking the poster to remove the content, although I never understood why people acquiesce to such requests. My point is; don't expect such a thread not to lead to confrontation, even anger. You tend to end up with camps defending their positions. The problem with that is it's difficult for the uninitiated to work out which camp is right and you can't just assume that the person who sells HELMET A, and his mates and loyal customers, is not in the right just because they lack objectivity.

These new ESB casts that are floating around are a perfect example. Getting a truthful answer about exactly where those sit will be tricky.
Minutefett has stated that his helmet has been made 'utilising' a first generation ESB cast; what does that mean? I've asked, he's been on since then, but the question remains unanswered. He's not the only one, this is simply a recent example; when FP launched his FPH2, his stance was simply that no one should discuss it. When did that become okay? These are just examples and there are plenty of others over the years.

The issue you will have to contend with is money. Most people seem to get very passionate where it is involved. You need to understand that some of these helmet runs are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not that this means you shouldn't ask the questions.

As for screen used, sorry, I'm not your man. I have never been inside the archive. I've seen stuff at exhibitions but that's not the same. There are plenty of guys here who have been but the information that has publicly escaped over the years is a trickle as they are unwilling or unable to disclose (or a combination of both). I can relate to this; I have been privy to plenty of stuff where the first rule of fight club applies, so this isn't a criticism of those guys.
Thank you for taking the time.
Reading your answer on surface level can easily feel like a sucker punch to the enthusiasm, but reading through it with attention feels much different. There is much to be learned. Thank you.

I have done extensive reading on tdh even before I joined so a lot of what you told me I was already familiar with. However, your summing it up actually helped me better understand some of the issues.

Ok, now to comment on the points you brought up:

The difficulty and subjectivity of measuring the helmets is something I did not take into consideration when the idea of a comparison thread came to mind. It could be mitigated though by providing measurement instructions (to a degree, but imho to a far enough degree as to provide some benefit).
Trimming certainly is a different issue. It should only apply to measuring the height though, as the circumference ist not subject to trimming, neither is the width. The length should only to a very minor degree be influenced by trimming, which would be negligible.
Before I set out to think about how measuring instructions could look like to be easily applied kindly offer your take on that.

The idea to look at helmet weights was actually the starting point to all of this, as can be read here:

The weight was interesting to me, because it gives information about the amount of fiberglass used, thus, the sturdiness.
Your point that this will depend on "how the maker felt that day" is critical, though. Nevertheless, It could still be beneficial to have a grouping of figures rather then an exact number, giving a ballpark for different helmet types.

Your thoughts on lineage discussions have been most welcome as they helped me understand the matter a little better.
I really do not wish to cause any confrontation or anger or even just give the occasion for such to develop.
Do you think it would be best to just leave the lineage details out of this thread then? It sure would be nice Info to have brought together here, too, but not at the cost of killing the whole idea before it even got off to a start.

Initially, my train of thought regarding lineage details wasnt even to be able to collect definitive details, but more to bring the bits and pieces together that are common knowledge.
I thought of something like "Minutefetts ESB Hero helmet being derived from the ESB hero helmet" or "XYZ is a fan sculpt" or "ABC came from the PP2" Just some general information consolidated in one place for people to find when they are reading up on helmet options.
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
Thank you for taking the time.
Reading your answer on surface level can easily feel like a sucker punch to the enthusiasm, but reading through it with attention feels much different. There is much to be learned. Thank you.

I have done extensive reading on tdh even before I joined so a lot of what you told me I was already familiar with. However, your summing it up actually helped me better understand some of the issues.

Ok, now to comment on the points you brought up:

The difficulty and subjectivity of measuring the helmets is something I did not take into consideration when the idea of a comparison thread came to mind. It could be mitigated though by providing measurement instructions (to a degree, but imho to a far enough degree as to provide some benefit).
Trimming certainly is a different issue. It should only apply to measuring the height though, as the circumference ist not subject to trimming, neither is the width. The length should only to a very minor degree be influenced by trimming, which would be negligible.
Before I set out to think about how measuring instructions could look like to be easily applied kindly offer your take on that.

The idea to look at helmet weights was actually the starting point to all of this, as can be read here:

The weight was interesting to me, because it gives information about the amount of fiberglass used, thus, the sturdiness.
Your point that this will depend on "how the maker felt that day" is critical, though. Nevertheless, It could still be beneficial to have a grouping of figures rather then an exact number, giving a ballpark for different helmet types.

Your thoughts on lineage discussions have been most welcome as they helped me understand the matter a little better.
I really do not wish to cause any confrontation or anger or even just give the occasion for such to develop.
Do you think it would be best to just leave the lineage details out of this thread then? It sure would be nice Info to have brought together here, too, but not at the cost of killing the whole idea before it even got off to a start.

Initially, my train of thought regarding lineage details wasnt even to be able to collect definitive details, but more to bring the bits and pieces together that are common knowledge.
I thought of something like "Minutefetts ESB Hero helmet being derived from the ESB hero helmet" or "XYZ is a fan sculpt" or "ABC came from the PP2" Just some general information consolidated in one place for people to find when they are reading up on helmet options.
I'm not trying to neuter your enthusiasm. The measuring issues might be sorted with a common practice but unless you can truly account for trimming then you're never going to be exact and there will be variance. You might be able to negate the issues with high quality scanning equipment but we have seen, many times, the variances in measurements even if generous enough to assume it's only human error (see - money).
The best measurements to take are those that are wholly contained within the cast and that can be taken to be correct, with a high degree of confidence, when different people are taking them e.g. the keyslots.

Weight: maybe. Maybe not. I have two casts from an identical origin and made by the same person. One is substantially heavier than the other because the cast was deliberately made bomb proof for archival purposes. I think you'd be better looking at a range. Most of the guys are pretty consistent in what they do so you're only looking at a few grams here and there.

Don't leave lineage off the table if you want to discuss it, just be aware that people will defend their positions. Also, for this to be worth anything you'll need to have one person or group or people, to have access to a wide range of casts, some rare and some not, and preferably at the same time, who is/are objective enough, and willing, to give it straight otherwise you'll get a flame war. More importantly, you won't get the right answers.

As these ESB casts are now floating around in one form or another that's a good study; it's pretty exciting by the way. Minute has claimed 1st gen was 'utilised'. That doesn't mean anything. All of the ESB copies will have utilised a 1st gen copy at some point otherwise none of them could exist. We know Wasteland's are out there but no public claims have been made by him that I am aware of. Either way, whilst it is possible that the helmets being sold are 3rd gen, 4th or 5th gen seems more likely for both. It's still exciting; ESB HELMETS!
At the moment what's for sale appears heavily sanitised. We'll call those the Version 1's.

Don't be surprised is one or both of the following things happen in the next few years.
Respective version 2's with less sanitizing, and possible version 3's and so on. There's plenty of scope for that because the helmet was cast in 2012 and not 1980.
Other 'version 2's' that lay claim to being one or more generations higher up the tree.

For this to work someone needs to have all of this stuff and be able talk openly about the good and the bad, especially the shortcomings. The trouble with that is that, because people like to defend their positions (see-money) they might be reluctant to participate in a project that will affect the shekels.
 

BudaFett

Well-Known Hunter
Lineage is tricky, like intwenothor has stated.

You’re either going to find that the creator of the mold, like Fett Pride won’t answer questions about the lineage. Which in my opinion is fine, because I don’t believe he ever claimed it to be anything in particular. You either buy or or don’t. Of course a lot of people suspect it’s origins are stunt helmet that were from the ESB Hero but there’s no proof.

Then you’ll have people claim their helmet came from a 3D scan or a 1st generation pull and then when questioned won’t answer directly.
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
Exactly. Already, I disagree with most of what RNBuda has just written about the FPH2.

Lineage is the tricky thing with straight answers far and few. You might be better producing 'the world according to Ramskirata', making your own choices on what the most appropriate answers are and leaving it at that. If you make it a discussion it'll quickly descend into conflicting views on he said she said.
Use the search function.
 

BudaFett

Well-Known Hunter
Exactly. Already, I disagree with most of what RNBuda has just written about the FPH2.

Lineage is the tricky thing with straight answers far and few. You might be better producing 'the world according to Ramskirata', making your own choices on what the most appropriate answers are and leaving it at that. If you make it a discussion it'll quickly descend into conflicting views on he said she said.
Use the search function.
My guess on the FPH2 is just that, total guess. The only thing is that no one has claimed, including Fett Pride WHAT the actual origins are. So not much up to discussion besides educated guesses. Now when you’re claiming something to be Generation 1 off the hero...that’s up for criticism and discussion.
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
I think we would agree that seems unlikely. These new casts are likely to trace back to one person and one 1st gen cast. Any copy of that and we're already into second generation.

If the casting processes are decent then the 2nd, and 3rd generation casts could be capable of being very good copies. Degradation will creep in at some point even if the processes remain of a high quality. Obviously, one bad link in the chain will affect everything that comes after. It's perfectly conceivable to have very good copies in subsequent generations but the issues will start to increase the further from the original you get.

The keyword is utilising.

Utilising.

Utilising.
 

RamSkirata

Hunter
I'm not trying to neuter your enthusiasm. The measuring issues might be sorted with a common practice but unless you can truly account for trimming then you're never going to be exact and there will be variance. You might be able to negate the issues with high quality scanning equipment but we have seen, many times, the variances in measurements even if generous enough to assume it's only human error (see - money).
The best measurements to take are those that are wholly contained within the cast and that can be taken to be correct, with a high degree of confidence, when different people are taking them e.g. the keyslots.

Weight: maybe. Maybe not. I have two casts from an identical origin and made by the same person. One is substantially heavier than the other because the cast was deliberately made bomb proof for archival purposes. I think you'd be better looking at a range. Most of the guys are pretty consistent in what they do so you're only looking at a few grams here and there.

Don't leave lineage off the table if you want to discuss it, just be aware that people will defend their positions. Also, for this to be worth anything you'll need to have one person or group or people, to have access to a wide range of casts, some rare and some not, and preferably at the same time, who is/are objective enough, and willing, to give it straight otherwise you'll get a flame war. More importantly, you won't get the right answers.

As these ESB casts are now floating around in one form or another that's a good study; it's pretty exciting by the way. Minute has claimed 1st gen was 'utilised'. That doesn't mean anything. All of the ESB copies will have utilised a 1st gen copy at some point otherwise none of them could exist. We know Wasteland's are out there but no public claims have been made by him that I am aware of. Either way, whilst it is possible that the helmets being sold are 3rd gen, 4th or 5th gen seems more likely for both. It's still exciting; ESB HELMETS!
At the moment what's for sale appears heavily sanitised. We'll call those the Version 1's.

Don't be surprised is one or both of the following things happen in the next few years.
Respective version 2's with less sanitizing, and possible version 3's and so on. There's plenty of scope for that because the helmet was cast in 2012 and not 1980.
Other 'version 2's' that lay claim to being one or more generations higher up the tree.

For this to work someone needs to have all of this stuff and be able talk openly about the good and the bad, especially the shortcomings. The trouble with that is that, because people like to defend their positions (see-money) they might be reluctant to participate in a project that will affect the shekels.
I didnt interpret it that way - just like I said, on the surface it may have looked pretty discouraging, but I think you are trying to help :)

Regarding the measuring...
Measurements taken of areas wholly contained in the cast is undoubtedly the way to go for getting information about the correct sizes in relation to the lineage of the helmets. My intent isn't that, but simply to be able to collect practical real world measurements for folks to be able to compare.
Example: Im getting a The Mandalorian helmet 3d printed atm, but had the size increased so it would fit more comfortably (those things are NARROW!). Obviously, thats not gonna be such an issue with a reasonably sized Fett helmet, but its that kind of utility I was going for.
And really only the height would be effected by trimming out of all the measurements I was looking for, so I still see value there.
(The trimming of the mandibles will of course effect the length, but not to a large degree.)

Weight:
Right! Thats exactly the kinda thing I'm interested in. The general ranges of fiberglass-thickness and weight in the helmets people are using.
The way this whole idea came about is that Jetpackfett tragically lost his helmet to an accident and posted pictures of the broken one. There, you could see that the fiberglass was extremely thin in some areas. Scary thin.
My thought was, that the weight of the helmet might give hints about the amount of fiberglass used, where the thickness could not be measured.

Lineage:
What has happened in this thread already has made up my mind about leaving the lineage out of this thread. :)
While I love the kind of discussion that you find in the helmet history thread and that has already started here, that wasnt my inted for this thread, just a small info along the lines of "has PP2 origins".
Well. It certainly would not stay at that level and inevitably a discussion would arise, thats better suited for the helmet history thread or, even better yet:
A thread dedicated to discussing the origins of the avialable helmets. As those include fan sculpts as well that dont have a place in the helmet history thread.
But I am certainly not the person to "run" such a thread - Im not long established here, not too knowledgeable on the casting process and the history behind helmets.
I still think such a thread, if it be manageable, would be a tremendous resource for the community.
This thread is not the place for that though.

So I will be deleting the suggestion of adding lineage details to the first post.
 

spacebob

Hunter
I'm afraid intwenothor is right. What you are asking, in the depth of detail you are asking is not really do-able. Two casts of the same helmet maker will be different weights. Molds pass from maker to maker and then you will have a new weight and process again.
The best you can do is use the search function and get your fill of the endless information already on the forum, look for nice visual comparisons, there are many, and start to get a feel for the different reputations of the makers and molds.
If I am to add my 2 Cents the FPH2 is a ideal version of the ESB It is not, and I don't think it was ever claimed to be an 100% from cast replica, It really "looks" like the ESB as the ESB unique even among the screen uses BF lids, as it was damaged goods from the beginning.
Good luck
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
I didnt interpret it that way - just like I said, on the surface it may have looked pretty discouraging, but I think you are trying to help :)

Regarding the measuring...
Measurements taken of areas wholly contained in the cast is undoubtedly the way to go for getting information about the correct sizes in relation to the lineage of the helmets. My intent isn't that, but simply to be able to collect practical real world measurements for folks to be able to compare.
Example: Im getting a The Mandalorian helmet 3d printed atm, but had the size increased so it would fit more comfortably (those things are NARROW!). Obviously, thats not gonna be such an issue with a reasonably sized Fett helmet, but its that kind of utility I was going for.
And really only the height would be effected by trimming out of all the measurements I was looking for, so I still see value there.
(The trimming of the mandibles will of course effect the length, but not to a large degree.)
Again, depends on the person trimmming. If dealing with someone vaguely competent then we shouldn't be losing more than a single millimetre.


Weight:
Right! Thats exactly the kinda thing I'm interested in. The general ranges of fiberglass-thickness and weight in the helmets people are using.
The way this whole idea came about is that Jetpackfett tragically lost his helmet to an accident and posted pictures of the broken one. There, you could see that the fiberglass was extremely thin in some areas. Scary thin.
My thought was, that the weight of the helmet might give hints about the amount of fiberglass used, where the thickness could not be measured.
How do you know if that helmet was representative of all of the helmets from that maker. It may have been one bad helmet. You'd need an average. Also, you could have uniform weight without having uniform thickness; thick sport here, thin spot there.



Lineage:
What has happened in this thread already has made up my mind about leaving the lineage out of this thread. :)
While I love the kind of discussion that you find in the helmet history thread and that has already started here, that wasnt my inted for this thread, just a small info along the lines of "has PP2 origins".
Well. It certainly would not stay at that level and inevitably a discussion would arise, thats better suited for the helmet history thread or, even better yet:
A thread dedicated to discussing the origins of the avialable helmets. As those include fan sculpts as well that dont have a place in the helmet history thread.
But I am certainly not the person to "run" such a thread - Im not long established here, not too knowledgeable on the casting process and the history behind helmets.
I still think such a thread, if it be manageable, would be a tremendous resource for the community.
This thread is not the place for that though.

So I will be deleting the suggestion of adding lineage details to the first post.
Even "has PP2 origins" has issues. I think the FPH2 has PP2 origins, as covered in detail in post 246 of the Fett Helmet History thread, and I think it's a good theory and I think I've presented it fairly well. Can I prove it? Nope. The other possibility is the ROTJ stunt and for that I haven't seen any supporting material offered other than the rumour. However, it means that the board wouldn't even agree for a loose lineage for the single most popular helmet of the last 10 years. That means we have to call it a fan sculpt and I'm pretty certain it isn't that. We wouldn't be able to agree on the most popular helmet kit of this decade.

Consider another example: I call these, all of them, the RafalFett helmets.
As you may know, RafalFett, who is probably one of the best contributors to the board ever, has created templates of a boba fett helmet for people to work from. Over the years several people have used these templates as the basis of sculpts for helmets they have made into fibreglass kits. Some of them look very nice indeed. Some of those people have gone as far as to alter their original versions to create improved versions. To me, no matter how many iterations and improvements are made, these helmets will always be RafalFett helmets; if at any point the build had to rely on, or was otherwise built on, a RafalFett helmet or template as a basis then that's what it is....

.....but hold on Andy, some of these guys have poured significant time and effort into their sculpts, and improved sculpts, and may feel their work deserves to be recognised in its own right. I disagree.

It's not a question of someone 'running' a thread; the mods and admins would do that when we started to argue, which we would. The resource is already there; it's the whole board. You could start such a thread, although I stand by my comments on where it will go, or you could search the board, or you could simply message people and ask what they think.
 
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boba87fett

Active Hunter
Another thing to consider when digging in the weeds, looking at helmets is the width and diameter which show changes in size. The GMH I believe is the most popular example of generational degradation in scale. So, I would place higher value on owning an early GMH with less loss and more detail than just having a shrunken GMH with the same detail. Keep digging through the threads and searching old, popular posts. Contact people that don't post here any more on through FB and IG and ask questions. I've had several share photos and information that I couldn't find on here from when they were active members. You'll get answers and you'll start to find out more and more lol...
 

Jetpackfett

Hunter
Just flipping through this thread for the first time and it’s already an interesting read. So much goes into these helmets and so much time and devotion has gone into accurately recreating them so many years later. This is a rabbit hole that can seem almost endless at times
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
boba87fett, you're confusing me on the GMH. The GMH is Fettpride's restoration of Art's old 'Grant McCune' helmet; the GM. The GMH's are all the same and Superjedi, who now owns the GM, has previously demonstrated that the GM and GMH's that came from it are pretty much the same size and both clearly smaller than the KT plug. Whether the shrinkage in the GM, and all that came from it, are due to generational shrinkage or some other reason cannot really be ascertained.

Are you talking about shrinkage in recasts of GMH's, which are readily available on ebay, or are you talking about some other GM type helmet?
When Art posted about his GM on The RPF in 2010, Singelseat stated that he'd seen other GM type helmets over the years; is that what you're talking about?
 

boba87fett

Active Hunter
Isn't the GMH known to be the smallest helmet currently offered? My understanding was that it comes through the PP2 line and I am assuming that the PP2 should be the same size as the other Supertrooper helmets that became Boba Fett helmets since they were cast from the original Jan Stevens clay helmet mold.

So, if the Grant McCune helmets are smaller in length and width and they came from a PP2 at some point, isn't that generational shrinkage through that lineage line?

Sorry if I am making too many assumptions. I am still learning this stuff haha
 

intwenothor

Well-Known Hunter
boba87fett , certainly the GMH is small, there's no doubt about that. Generational shrinkage is one explanation and is a very straightforward one. There are other theories that might account for it; certainly it seems that something else came from the same mould as the KT. Art was of the view that his GM came form the same mould as the KT but years later. That thing could have been the GM, or the GM could be a recast of whatever that thing was - several generations removed.

I can think of a theory that would place the GM as the same generation of the KT that would explain the apparent shrinkage and might account for some of the other issues that the GM has but that the KT does not e.g. the dome having sunk in. Or my [possible] theory might be correct in addition to generational shrinkage. Neither theory, or combination thereof, is anymore proveable than the other. In my view, we can only speculate, but to assume that the size issue must be purely generational shrinkage has to be just that; an assumption.

I believe the BM helmet has also been said to be small. It's one of the few helmets I have not seen so you'd have to ask someone else. That also looks to be a PP2 based helmet.

EDIT: This is the old RPF thread I was referring to earlier.

 
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