"Customs" - Cannon vs. Imagination

Hello, I'm sorry for your misunderstanding, but I was replying to the "501st drawing the line in the sand." A custom costume might be a Rubies costume that's been dyed green, wearing tennis shoes and a face mask instead of a helmet.

I LOVE to see custom Mandos, it'd be pretty boring to only have Bobas and Jangos around. Marrow Sun's heavy Mando helmet is pretty sweet, great for a custom, typical chest armor can also be changed and etc.

Customs = COOL!

Customs in the 501st = Not Cool.

Having been involved in costuming and attending Conventions for 25 + years i am some what disturbed by some of what i have read here on this subject. I myself have costumes from Klingon Battle Armor to a full Borg ( with tubes and electronics that look as if they are implanted in me ) and Renaisance and a full Black Hole ( Stealth ) Trooper armor that i spent a lot of time and money on.

What i have a problem with is the thought that there is an organization and are people that think that those who can not afford to get those costumes as good as theirs should not be part of what they are a part of. That sounds like being prejudice to me. Should we only let in those "White" troopers because they are seen in the movies. NO Black or Red troopers in because they are not like the rest. Should we only let those Boba or Jango " Clones" in because they were in the movies. No "customs" on mandos because they are not like the rest. I think not. Discrimination is some thing that this country has fought to stop for a long time and i myself enjoy the many differences i see. Some of the best costumes no matter the genre i have seen have been custom or variances.

I am currently working on a "custom" mando as you can see here in the dented varients section. I will wear this mando with pride and enjoy the fun i have with old and new friends made at the cons. If there are those who do not care for them than this is their problem as i have been shown in various costumes as representative of those at the conventions and even asked by a major company to use my likeness in costume in a tv comercial and they were all "custom" as they are called. I do hope that i did not offend any one with my rantings but i hate discrimination and love the differences that the world brings. Finally there is an old saying that says "Why would i join a club that would have me as a member ". Viva la Customs!!!!!!

Nachturnus said:

As to quality of costumes, I think that even if a suit is low quality that everyone should do their best to support each other. We are a small group of people, and by telling somone "Your armor looks just like the trashcan you cut it from!", then we've just lost one more person.

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I agree to a degree, but at the same time you are not really helping anyone out my dishonestly reinforcing low quality efforts.

There is so much knowledge here that even on a budget, you can learn to create very nice and accurate armor. Certainly over time, this becomes somewhat expensive, but it all does not need to happen over night. For $25.00 one can pick up a 8' x 4' sheet of sintra that goes a long way (GE Polymershapes). Many go straight to paint before giving a thought to fitting. Many grab random toy guns, hit them with paint, and call it a day. I realize that some are more experienced crafters than others, but I am of the opinion that anyone exercising enough determination and patience can become an expert. Criticism is largely subjective, but blindly reinforcing every effort neglects the criticized valuable potential. The lower the standard, the more the entire group deviates from its potential.

Though, I think the issues I am thinking of have a bit less to do with quality and more to do with continuity. I see it in a way somewhat similar t the clone armies. A few designated, distinguishable ranks, and several standard troops.

What is the base Mandalorian? Do Boba and Jango's colors originate from larger, similar clans? Are jet packs standard? If not, what are the alternatives? Is there a way to determine rank? What are the details that each known Mandalorian shares?

These examples of questions may be impossible to answer, but then again we are on our own path as it is. I may be digging a ditch that is difficult to fill

ShocKWavE said:

I agree to a degree, but at the same time you are not really helping anyone out my dishonestly reinforcing low quality efforts.

There is so much knowledge here that even on a budget, you can learn to create very nice and accurate armor. Certainly over time, this becomes somewhat expensive, but it all does not need to happen over night. For $25.00 one can pick up a 8' x 4' sheet of sintra that goes a long way (GE Polymershapes). Many go straight to paint before giving a thought to fitting. Many grab random toy guns, hit them with paint, and call it a day. I realize that some are more experienced crafters than others, but I am of the opinion that anyone exercising enough determination and patience can become an expert. Criticism is largely subjective, but blindly reinforcing every effort neglects the criticized valuable potential. The lower the standard, the more the entire group deviates from its potential.

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I agree with you 100%, that it is not wise to tell people "Your costume looks great!" when it in fact looks like a peice of tin foil. I was saying that, instead of going "OMG your costume is teh suxorz" that we should try to aid them in making their costume better.

A good example is Zurath Kudol, or how ever you spell it. He runs on a tight budget, and his costume originally looked pretty crappy. He's been working on it over the last couple of months with people's critiques to guide him, and it's starting to look much much better.

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Now, with the continuity, I beleive a character just needs to have an acceptable backstory relating to their past. None of this "son of a jedi, and raised by wolves" stuff, but a legitimate back story, with a place of birth, interactions with the galactic powers (black sun, empire, rebels, hutts, etc.), and a feasable desciption for why they are the way they are.

Now, My personal take on the basic mandalorian is a little skewed.

I think that most mandos (as seen in comics etc) looked essentially like the mandalorian comandos in swg. Jet Packs are not standard, gauntlet attachments are not standard, and weapons are not standard. Leg armor also seems to be a little less than standard as well.

Everything else, the chest armor, the helmet, the flight suit, the knee pads, seem to all be pretty standard.

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I personally would like very much to compile a timeline of histories of the characters on HvM or TDH, to try to get a little continuity for everyone's customs that is accessable to everyone. this could add a little bit of continuity to the whole custom angle (although totally un-canon), and could make the customs seem that much more real, that much more like a peice of Star Wars.

After all in star wars, guns, spaceships, and planets all get their own little books and timelines, why shouldn't we make one for ourselves?

ShockWave, I agree as well. I am running on a tight budget, but I'm trying out everything that I can, checking the fit of armor, making details on the suit that aren't at first noticible but there to add character. Remember, all the people who construct the cool stuff you see had to learn it at some point, so why not take the time to learn how to make things and have those skills if you make more costumes?

And Nachturnus, making a timeline of peoples backstories sounds like an awesome idea! Great way to make the customs feel more like part of the SW Universe.

I agree that a back story and time line would be great. I also think a Gallery style page where all us customs could post our gear in one place, would allow many new custom builders a chance to look at the quality of customs out there. Setting a high example here on the boards and out in the world when we are in our costumes is a good a way to form some general guidelines to how to build a custom Mando, Storm Trooper, Etc. If we lead by example and give the newer people a place to look at all of our hard work without having to search and spend a lot of time on the web. would give them more time to work on their gear. This would also help them feel the need to build up to a “standard” of excellence without forcing them to live up to a standard that we have set to try and weed them out. I can say personally that I took a lot of time working on my gear and looking at every custom Mando I could find to take ideas from. I felt an obligation to make my Mando live up to the standards that many of you have set for yourselves in building your own costumes. I feel that most people will feel the same way and the desire to "fit in" with the rest of us without being forced that way, will push them to make their costumes the best they can be.

I also feel that is why there is some resentment for groups like the 501st. I understand their desire to have cannon characters and their desire to fit into the universe as it was in the movies. There is a positive side to what they are doing by creating a force of storm troopers and imperial troops in general. They are a great addition to any convention or gathering. However the decision to close off their ranks to customs has a negative side. I personally have felt some resentment in the past, when I was looking at costume choices, toward the 501st. due to their requirements. I no longer feel that way and will perhaps one day build a cannon costume to join them, but now that I have found TDH and HV&M as well as a couple of other places to hang out, I do not feel the pressure to conform to a certain standard just to fit in. If I ever join it will be becaue I want to, not because I feel I have to just to have fun with the hobby.

I really feel no need to have my custom be accepted by the 501st. I want to make an ESB Boba as well as a Biker Scout which should both get into the 501st anyways, if I decide to join.

I think a gallery is being planned as well, with the new server change allowing that kind of addition. I'm not sure the specifics of the gallery, like if it's only for cannon costumes. And I must say that seeing all the customs and Fetts that I've seen has really pushed me to try and make the best costume I possibly can given the resources available to me.

I would like to see some advancements toward rank identification and unit class customization. for instance, standard bearers and grunts. also elite class and the like. of course all of these things only serve towards a more united mandalorian army structure. as far as bounty hunters and loners, there should still be some standard to live up to. I know I don't want to look like a dork in my PJ's. by the same token, i'm not doing a fett because I don't want someone picking apart my paint job and jumpsuit colors. I want to have a good time, and hang out with easy going people, not costume snobs. i'll stop typing now. I got nothing.

katarn said:

"In five millennia, the Mandalorians fought with and against a thousand armies on a thousand worlds. They learned to speak as many languages and absorbed weapons technology and tactics from every war. And yet, despite the overwhelming influence of alien cultures, and the absence of a true home world and even species, their own language not only survived but changed little; their way of life and their philosophy remained untouched; and their ideals and sense of family, of identity of nation, were only strengthened. Armor is not what makes a Mandalorian. Armor is simply a manifestation of an impenetrable, unassaliable heart. "
— Passage from "Mandalorians: Identity and Language"


The last two sentences sums up how I feel on the subject.

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beautiful just beautiful :cry

Ok,

I think its my turn to chime in on this subject....as an Admin here and as 501st member.
When I started my Jodo Kast armor, EU characters were not allowed in yet.Thus, my Jodo Kast was not going to elegible for membership in the 501st. Did that stop me? Hell no....It may have taken me 4 yrs to put it all together, but I did it...and it came out fantastic!! I was still going to troop with all of my 501st friends regardless, because we all hung out and partied together.
Fast forward to the present. Remo Locke and I started the HVM for a place for Custom Mandos to hang out and showcase their stuff, because there was no place for us like the TDH is for Boba and Jango. Our membership grew, as more people came over and started to hang out, and showcase more of their stuff.
Now look at where we are, there are 3 forums dedicated to Custom Mandalorian costumes, where there was none a year and a half ago. I say we as a group have made significant progress with our costumes and the quality we have been churning out.
Yes, we must also help each other keep the quality high on what we do, to keep the feel for "just walked off the set" look. I think that is one of our primary goals.
And as I have seen, many people will come at me and say.."Why do you care? Your Mando is already an accepted 501st costume!" To those people I point out, that 4 years ago, it was not. Thus making me and my brother to the North, Jodo_Kast the first custom Mandalorians out there that really showcased our costumes.... So this subject is near and dear to both of us.
So where does that leave us? I don`t know. We now have 3 message boards to choose from, our numbers have tripled in the last year, and I am organizing the first Custom Mando Photo Op at DragonCon this year.

Where it all goes from here is anybodys guess? Could our little fledgling group expand and grow more than it has? I`m sure it will...and I`ll be here to watch and smile as it does.

Carry on my Mandalorian brothers and sisters...

Craig M.
Jodo Kast 3
HVM Admin
TDH Admin

Tack said:

I agree that a back story and time line would be great. I also think a Gallery style page where all us customs could post our gear in one place, would allow many new custom builders a chance to look at the quality of customs out there.

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I believe that is what Remo (I think) is trying to do here: http://www.mandaloriansupercommandos.com/index_content.html

I didn't read most of this thread, but I'd definatly like to throw in and agree with the original poster.

I sometimes see customs that makes me question why someone would do something.

The biggest pet peeve for me, but I never mention it because, hey, it's your costume. But, if you want to fit into the timeline there are a few things that need to be recognized.

First off. Mandalorians hate Jedi, they hate everything about them and everything that represents what a Jedi is. So, when I see a Mandalorian Jedi, it kinda twists my nipple. A Mandalorian would never use a Light Saber for several reasons. One, even as bad ass as Mandalorians are, they just don't have the focus and force power to use a Light Saber, here is a weapon that takes years and years to just get the feel of, and without the Force, it's extremely hard to do. Not saying that it can't be done, it just in all actuallity of most of the stories that I've read, wouldn't happen.

Second, It has been stated in almost every source book...No Two Mandalorian Armors look the same. So, there's absolutly no reason why all the costumes should look the same. You could be wearing football pads, and as long as "look" Mandalorian...hey, you're a Mandalorian. If you pick up issue 7 of Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic comic book series, there is an excellent example of pre-dated Mando costumes, and I loved it. I got some great ideas for my next custom based off of that one comic book, and it's going to be a bad-ass Mando costume when I'm done.

Three: Regardless of what you've heard Jango Fett was not the last Mandalorian. There were several of them that were used as Training Commanders for the Clone Troopers. Jango provided the DNA, and the Mandos that he hand-picked trained the commando squads.

In the latest book, we see several Mandalorians.

Four: Mandalorians are not a "Race" they're a warrior tribe. Anyone can become a Mandalorian, in fact I saw a Twi'Lek Mando in this story and I thought he looked awsome. So, if you want to be a Ghamorian Mandalorian, that's entirely up to you, and nobody but big GL can say anything otherwise.

And the way I see, when GL released Star Wars, he gave that universe to us. It exists in our imaginations, making us the controllers now. Just because he says "Oh, no more Wookie Jedi." Doesn't mean you have to listen to him. If you want to be a Jedi Hutt, then that's your thing. Nobody has the right to take that away from you.

That's all I got to say. I'm sorry if I upset anyone with my points of views, and I could be wrong. Maybe you're Mandalorian killed a Jedi and took his saber. That's your story, your character...go on with your bad self.

Jodo Kast 3 said:

Ok,

I think its my turn to chime in on this subject....as an Admin here and as 501st member.
When I started my Jodo Kast armor, EU characters were not allowed in yet.Thus, my Jodo Kast was not going to elegible for membership in the 501st. Did that stop me? Hell no....It may have taken me 4 yrs to put it all together, but I did it...and it came out fantastic!! I was still going to troop with all of my 501st friends regardless, because we all hung out and partied together.
Fast forward to the present. Remo Locke and I started the HVM for a place for Custom Mandos to hang out and showcase their stuff, because there was no place for us like the TDH is for Boba and Jango. Our membership grew, as more people came over and started to hang out, and showcase more of their stuff.
Now look at where we are, there are 3 forums dedicated to Custom Mandalorian costumes, where there was none a year and a half ago. I say we as a group have made significant progress with our costumes and the quality we have been churning out.
Yes, we must also help each other keep the quality high on what we do, to keep the feel for "just walked off the set" look. I think that is one of our primary goals.
And as I have seen, many people will come at me and say.."Why do you care? Your Mando is already an accepted 501st costume!" To those people I point out, that 4 years ago, it was not. Thus making me and my brother to the North, Jodo_Kast the first custom Mandalorians out there that really showcased our costumes.... So this subject is near and dear to both of us.
So where does that leave us? I don`t know. We now have 3 message boards to choose from, our numbers have tripled in the last year, and I am organizing the first Custom Mando Photo Op at DragonCon this year.

Where it all goes from here is anybodys guess? Could our little fledgling group expand and grow more than it has? I`m sure it will...and I`ll be here to watch and smile as it does.

Carry on my Mandalorian brothers and sisters...

Craig M.
Jodo Kast 3
HVM Admin
TDH Admin

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Oh, and one more thing about this subject. No offense to you Jodo, I have the upmost respect for you and 501st guys.

But, I am getting sick and tired of seeing you guys mentioned in every book! :moon

You guys have earned your place, don't get me wrong. You've put a lot of hard work to end up where you guys are today. But...maybe it's time for a little competition. The 501st wasn't the only Stormtrooper devision!

I doubt anyone would be able to stand up to the 501st, I mean...you guys have what, a couple thousand members now?

But, still wouldn't it be interesting to have some friendly competition?

Bah, I'm just in Madea mode. I'll shut up now, I'm rambling. :cheers

DellisTantor said:

I doubt anyone would be able to stand up to the 501st, I mean...you guys have what, a couple thousand members now?
But, still wouldn't it be interesting to have some friendly competition?

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The Knights Of The Empire have stepped upto the mark. We're U.K. based, 501st friendly, and now have members spreading across the U.S. We troop not just canon, but EU canon and quality custom Mando's and can be found at: Knights Of The Empire 8) Okay, shameless plug over!

As long as the essential ellements are there, taken from EU canon or film canon then how you put it together is entirely upto you. Just remember that it should look like it "COULD'VE BEEN IN THE MOVIES".

DellisTantor said:

First off. Mandalorians hate Jedi, they hate everything about them and everything that represents what a Jedi is. So, when I see a Mandalorian Jedi, it kinda twists my nipple. A Mandalorian would never use a Light Saber for several reasons. One, even as bad ass as Mandalorians are, they just don't have the focus and force power to use a Light Saber, here is a weapon that takes years and years to just get the feel of, and without the Force, it's extremely hard to do. Not saying that it can't be done, it just in all actuallity of most of the stories that I've read, wouldn't happen.

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Actually whilst you are in part correct, Mandalorians DO indeed dislike Jedi you are also in part, wrong.
President has been set in the EU for a Mandalorian/Jedi hybrid with Karen Traviss's Triple Zero novel. Admittadly said character (I'm trying hard not to give anything away, for those that have yet to read it!) is a Jedi first BUT that character has been excepted by the Mandos, talks Mando'a, understands the culture AND wears Mandalorian armour. It remains to be seen where (if anywhere) Karen decides to take the character in the upcoming books but the fact remains a Mandalorian Jedi does exist.

Oh! and said character still uses a lightsaber and the Force.

DellisTantor said:

It has been stated in almost every source book...No Two Mandalorian Armors look the same.

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Perhaps, but highly questionable and debatable as fact. Every Mandalorian armor I have seen is similar if not identical. I'm trying to imagine a rainbow-colored war and I just can't see it. As a "tribe", I see greater possibility of some similarity than absolute individuality. A timeline would definitely play a role.

And then again, that could be interpreted as meaning there are only slight differences.

ShocKWavE said:

I'm trying to imagine a rainbow-colored war and I just can't see it.

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Something to help your imagination:

http://clonetroopers.net/Forum/index.php?showtopic=3446&st=0&p=48378&#entry48378

OrtharRrith said:

The Knights Of The Empire have stepped upto the mark. We're U.K. based, 501st friendly, and now have members spreading across the U.S. We troop not just canon, but EU canon and quality custom Mando's and can be found at: Knights Of The Empire 8) Okay, shameless plug over!

As long as the essential ellements are there, taken from EU canon or film canon then how you put it together is entirely upto you. Just remember that it should look like it "COULD'VE BEEN IN THE MOVIES".



Actually whilst you are in part correct, Mandalorians DO indeed dislike Jedi you are also in part, wrong.
President has been set in the EU for a Mandalorian/Jedi hybrid with Karen Traviss's Triple Zero novel. Admittadly said character (I'm trying hard not to give anything away, for those that have yet to read it!) is a Jedi first BUT that character has been excepted by the Mandos, talks Mando'a, understands the culture AND wears Mandalorian armour. It remains to be seen where (if anywhere) Karen decides to take the character in the upcoming books but the fact remains a Mandalorian Jedi does exist.

Oh! and said character still uses a lightsaber and the Force.

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Hmm, ironically I just picked that book up last night and began reading it. lol

Karens books are almost bibles for all things Mando.

I hope we get to see more of Bard'ika in the next books...

Dellis..

No offense taken.

All I have is my Kast armor....so you know where my heart lies....