Debate of EVO3s shirt design

according to origional work , you have to change 7 things about an item for it to be an "origional work". Otherwise almost all historical art would have be considered "copied or recasted". look at all the original classic Nude lady on couch paintings. 7 things bro

Never heard of the "7 things" thing, but I know I have reworked existing things to the point of - well, being a good deal past "7 things" different. On casual counting, I get about 15 changes on the forward part of the face alone for my RotJ Vader... and that is from the ANH version I modified from an existing mask some years before... having made a good number of changes to that as well (I started with something that looked like it had been modified to be less accurate, rather than the other way round). I guess if you want to come down to it, I essentially just rebuild the whole dang thing. If this "7 things" thing is for real then I guess I'm safe. :lol:

Oh, I should also note that when I received the casting I started with it was with the understanding that I would do work on it in TRADE for the right to do as wished with castings I made for myself. I was not paid for the work, I was essentially given the go ahead to make it my own... which I did.

Anyway, enough about that.
 
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I understand the meaning completely, and I do sympathize with it. However within the community it has the potential to imply a false meaning to those who don't understand exactly what it's true meaning is. The average joe con-goer probably isn't going to even understand the shirt from the get-go. I think this shirt is just going to set an enormous amount of people up with an enormous amount of drama.

If the shirt is causing this much debate here on TDH, I can't even imagine how much of an issue it must be in the Legion. I know how easy it is for many on the legion council to get their collective panties in a wad...so I bet July is going to be one rough cell-phone bill for a few peeps. My personal opinion on this is that if you don't like where the current leadership is going with the recasting policy, then you have less than 6 months and you can vote in new leadership.

Well, I'll tell you guys from personal experience: It's darn hard to enforce an active recasting policing policy, even in the smaller groups. Our policy in Mercs is that we don't condone or approve of it, we also don't police it, however if evidence is brought forward by a member then an investigation is launched and the guilty parties are punished with and up to membership termination.

Our main combat device against recasting is through educating our hopeful members (which is why we allow unofficial members on our boards), and by making reference and tutorial material easily accessible. The only way you can combat things like buying recasted material on ebay is to nip it early when the newbie has questions.

Proper guidance and access to the right references and guides are what is going to win out over spending resources trying to combat something that will most likely continue to plague the costuming community.
 
again - not policing Paramedic.
there are known recasters are allowed to carry on in the 501 despite being outed as recasters. even some CO's who openly use that statement NOT to do anything - check this out http://forum.bikerscout.net/index.php?showtopic=3882&st=20 ; post #31.

thats what I dont understand. to on-the-one-hand to say its bad, but yet do nothing about proven recasters amongst its ranks.

no one is expecting a new member to prove where their stuff comes from. like I said - if sttuff was bought prior to learning better, and it comes to standard, then its all ok. But to openly buy from a recaster is a big difference.

to the 501ers out there - what would you do it YOU knew there was someone actively recasting in your garrison? Would you or your garrison like to be associated with him?

ok, so what we are saying here is having known recasters within the ranks being allowed to continue to recast others' work? ya, that aint right...
but like others have said, the shirt is misleading in the essence that it makes all 501st members look like recasters and support recasting...and i cant believe that that is true...
 
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I have a question for EVO3 regarding the selling of these shirts and forgive me if I have overlooked this.
Are these shirts going to be sold at cost or at a profit (regardless of the ammount)?
I mean no disrespect with that question but I was wondering what you were going to do with the sells from this shirt,other than getting the word out about "recasting".
I support your cause but think using the 501st solely might be wrong to lump one group in a catogery as being recasters
 
Perhaps it IS time for the 501st to change it's policy but this is certainly not the way to go about doing it.

Not only do I find the shirt to be misrepresentative, I also find it to be insulting. In affect you're lumping me in with folks who re-cast and I don't take kindly to that assumption.

Not only that, you don't have permission to use the 501st logo Evo. I'd suggest against doing so.
 
Haven't posted here in a long long time. But I felt the need. Seems we all want to talk about this all the time. Well...

Evo... Your work is awesome. You do great clone stuff and the hero belt parts you cranked out on the FISD are unmatched.

BUT

Even your integrity was questioned. On a stupid found part. (dumb huh)

Here is the thing that gets missed.

All of this... TDH, RPF, 501st... Every part, fan sculpted, cast from real, every part is Gorges. (heard that before right?) His willingness to look the other way lets this exist. To have "prop makers" making the rules on what is and isn't allowed in theory (and less violent) is just like Al Capone deciding who sells the whiskey in Chicago circa 1920.

Bootleg.

Then add in the fact that Gorge him self led a marching, waving, cadence filled parade of copyright infringement for national TV. If its all right with the man, why do the prop guys care?

Money.

I know I know... Time and effort and out of pocket money to make stuff available. I am doing a Vader lid. Not an easy chore. Down right nerve racking. Can I stop some guy from recasting it? Nope. Many see this as a business opportunity. Free money. Little in, bunch out. Those are all over eBay shilling ****. I despise those that recast Legion members. Talk about smiling while the dagger is twisted. There rep goes in the toilet, never to return. Public opinion is far stronger than any policy. Its the person... Not the prop.

I love it when some one says recasting is stealing. From Whom? The prop guy? Prove it. Take the guy that stole your stolen property to court and tell that it a judge. Mythbusters flew the lead balloon, but I have yet to see a snow ball in hell. Thems your chances.

If this stuff is that important to you, get a license and have the LFL legal team run out your competition. No one talks about that angle.

On another note. Its great to bash the 501st, but face it, with out them who would the majority of this stuff be sold too? Almost all the prop guys sell on 501st boards. Umm... What? There scum right? That is what the shirt says.

No market, no need for stuff.

So lists are made. Do not sell to this guy... that guy... So be it. The 501st dosent want that hassle. Even the Propsafe forum gets to be hear say. This all boils back to personal opinion, and opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink. I know I have landed on a few do not sell lists because I support people, not stuff.

Here is another one for the fire...

What if a "good prop guy" goes rogue? Takes your money? Who is going to fight for you...

Short list.

No one. Its bootleg.

Could have made this statement in so many other ways. :(
 
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i can already see where this is going.
recaster: you don't own the intellectual rights to the helmet
prop maker : but i took my time and money to sculpt this helmet and i feel it is wrong for you to make copies of it.
recaster: i don't care!!

i don't own the intellectual property rights to this helmet:

3658803615_79f7bf52e6.jpg


i took my time and money to sculpt this helmet (and visor), but i don't actually care if you make copies of it.

i may well be the only "prop maker" to feel this way, but i really don't.

why you ask?

i made it for fun, because i wanted one, and i wanted to be able to make them for my friends. if someone recasts my helmet, that's not going to have any impact on my ability to make helmets for myself and my friends.

in my mind, all arguments against recasting come back to cutting into the cash flow of the prop makers.

i can honestly say that i'm not in it for the money, so i have nothing to lose by people recasting me.

i FULLY support the 501st stance on recasting. they are a costuming club, not a regulatory body. they don't need to be bothered by that sort of thing. they are there to play dress up and that's it.
 
Ya know bungle, I don't have anything against you. You were part of the fallout on the BSN. I know your stance.

Just difference in opinion.Read a cool line on the RPF.

"Time to put on the big boy pants and get a license."

How many prop guys are there? Not to many really create anything. A handful. Support the good ones. Be informed. Trust is better than quick and easy.


I too am soon to release a Fan made prop. Lots of hard work from 2 people. The sculptor and the mold maker.

IMG_0180-1.jpg


Still bootleg. I cant do a license, so I cant complain when its recast.
 
Doesn't it all come down to the pedigree of the prop in question. If the orgininal prop makers can give a cert of auth, or put in some sort of mark that is hard to copy, and resellers pass on the cert or at least be honest with where and whom they got the prop from in the first place then recastng would diminish significantly. This isn't a fight betwen the creators, sellers, and the consumer, but that of integretity of those in the community.

Also, there is the problem of ebay, recently I went looking for a Stormie and being of very limited budget I hit ebay. When looking up armour I found a shop from the UK that seller complete kits for around $300 shipped, approx, well heck yeah if I had the cash I would go that way and fix the flaws. Looking more I found the FX armour, and it was $1400 + sh, no freaking way. Then there are those selling there personal armour asking an arm and a leg. Man that $300 recast is looking better and better, if you get my point.
 
now, to be fair, i also think it's a cool idea to document recasters so that people can make an informed decision. if someone wants to buy a recast, that's his/her choice. but i do think it's a good idea to enable informed choices.
 
now, to be fair, i also think it's a cool idea to document recasters so that people can make an informed decision. if someone wants to buy a recast, that's his/her choice. but i do think it's a good idea to enable informed choices.

I completely agree, but who then is responsible for this "black listing" of these prop makers, and who makes the descision of whom is on the list. Great idea but unmanageable. Legit prop makers need to set up sites instead of relying on the Forums, and true buyers and costumers need to educate themselves. Casual buyers, those looking for a Halloween costome, will never care.....
 
Perhaps it IS time for the 501st to change it's policy but this is certainly not the way to go about doing it.

Not only do I find the shirt to be misrepresentative, I also find it to be insulting. In affect you're lumping me in with folks who re-cast and I don't take kindly to that assumption.

Not only that, you don't have permission to use the 501st logo Evo. I'd suggest against doing so.

Yup!!!!!!
 
Andy, you know I think you do amazing work. And you know I enjoy hanging out, when I make it over that way, or our paths cross.

I don't like the shirt. I don't think it is a fair statement about the 501st. A lot of thought went into the decision to have a policy like the 501st has, and if you can't see why it might be 'ok' for the RL to have their policy, and it to be a MUCH bigger deal for the 501st to adopt such a policy.... then I don't think you are being 100% fair in that evaluation.

I support anyone's ability to make a nonviolent protest though, so if you feel you have to do the shirt run, then I guess you should have at it.

Keep in mind though, that you are violating the 501st Charter if you don't get get approval to use the the logo on the shirt, and the charter DOES have teeth when it comes to something like that. Your contributions, to the 501st, or not, I'd expect nothing less from the CS then to do internal charges.

I'd really like to see you find a way to protest that didn't impact your standing in the club.

Peace though, regardless man.
 
If anyone is looking for a list of known vader and trooper recasters, I keep a list on SWP.


Here are some of my random thoughts on this shirt issue as well as on recasting in general.

When I first saw this shirt (and still), I can't tell from the design if it is pro or anti recasting. The only reason I know is because he said it was anti.

As far as insulting the entire 501st. I understand that not all the 501st are recasters or recaster supporters. A good deal of them who frequent forums like RPF, TDH, or SWP are 501st and adamantly against it.
But the 501st people you see on these prop forums represent a very small portion of the entire group. You guys (most of you anyway) are the good guys.
Most of the people who are 501st don't visit prop forums and have no concept of what recasting is, or that it is even bad. Somehow the message needs to get to these guys. The only way to get to these people before they get involved and do further damage would be to have hard rules and regs set by the 501st as well as reputable prop forums. It's obvious that the 501st isn't going to generate a list of recasters, but if you are a new guy looking to join, and you hear about this recasting thing, it might cause you to look into it further before you plunk down cash.

The people I believe we should all take issue with (501st or otherwise) are the ones who ARE aware of the evils of recasting yet still partake and support it. In my opinion ALL the prop and costuming communities should shun these types. Not the innocent people who didn't know any better.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the sentiment that EVO is showing is that if you are part of a larger orgainization that believes in something you are totally against, then as a member by allowing it to happen, you by default take indirect responsibility for it. If you stand with them then you stand with their principles as well.

Kind of like a country allowing terrorists to hang out there, by giving them safe harbor, makes the leaders of that country itself just as bad.
Now as far the average citizens who live in that country, what can they do?
I would say, rise up, cause a revolution, and overthrow the leaders, or leave the country. And when you do leave, spread the word about those horrible leaders. Sitting idly by and doing or saying nothing can be viewed as enabling the problem.
It's sort of like if you don't like your country's leader, but not voting for someone else during election time.


Those with the sentiment that it is okay to recast another hobbyist's work (regardless of whether it is cast off original or scratch built) should not be allowed to be part of the prop or costuming community.
Pretty soon, no one will want to make or offer anything new to anyone out of fear of being recast.
Then all people will have is inbred old recast props. Nothing new, nothing fresh.
And that is AGAINST the spirit of forums like RPF, TDH, and SWP.


.


.
 
ok, so what we are saying here is having known recasters within the ranks being allowed to continue to recast others' work? ya, that aint right...
but like others have said, the shirt is misleading in the essence that it makes all 501st members look like recasters and support recasting...and i cant believe that that is true...
We have a recaster here in Nevada, and he brings his little "garage sale" to every event he attends, and people buy from him. People buy from him because he supplies props for cheap, if we didn't have him, no one in the garrison would have Hasbro conversion kits on their blasters. I however, do not have his kit.

In the Neon City Garrison's leadership (the CO and his iron grip), the guy is just ignored. I don't think that he even knows that there is an issue with this guy recasting. A few years ago, one of our members purchased a Gino Stormtrooper suit, and before it was trimmed it was requested from the CO to make copies of the suit so that everyone could have one. Same thing happened a few years back with a Scout Trooper uniform that was purchased. I'm glad to say that neither of these "prop"ositions never happened, but that's just my telling of the NCG's standing on recasting.
 
recasting is all about honor. If you make a quick and easy mold from someone elses scratch built and designed hard work, they are going to be upset. but is it a legal matter? no, because they didn't have the rights to it either. are people going to be upset if you recasted a don post??? nope.... would the be mad if you racasted a Fettpride? ooohh yeah!!! Is it a double standard? absolutely! But that what happens when your a part of a tight-nit group like the TDH.

I have no idea what is going on with recasting in 501st and RL, but as far as Fett goes, what vadr_h8r said is very true...

I think that this shirt is to broad based. The 501st are not the recasters (even if they dont do anything about them) It is the actual recasters that are messing things up (or so it sounds like) why not make a shirt about buying from recasters or something of the sort? :confused

I'm glad we can have a civil discusion and respectfully disagree. Cheers to TDH and the maturity level of it's members! (y)(y)(y)

:cheers
A'den
 
Well every thing is a recast of some kind. The only ones permited by LFL to make the costume/armor parts are the companies that they let do it. ...So unless you have a permision slip from LFL.... you are breaking the laws. Just cause you made your own will not protect you from the Lawyers of LFL. if any thing the guys who make there own stuff are a bigger target for LFL to take down.

So, I take it that you will immediately 'cease and desist' from making a Star Wars costume and buy a Rubies? ;)

i support the shirt because MANY 501st members have recasted many helmets and armor

Yes, but so have many non-501st members.

Well a shirt like this is going to start debate...wow.."501st approved" would suggest they support it..and "no stance" is not the same thing..this shirt is disrespectful.

Sums it up for me as well.

Why not create a shirt that says:

"Another 501st member who does NOT support recasting"

Then 501st members might actually buy it, wear it, and get your point across. Otherwise you've just created a billboard that nobody will ever see.
 
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