Debate of EVO3s shirt design

I can understand the frustration that spawned this shirt, but making and offering the shirt will not change the situation. It will only further divide and splinter people. One of the great things about TDh is its sense of community and comradery. I have plenty of issues with the 501st on a personal level, but I also realize that some of the very best members we have here at TDH are 501st members. I think this will only serve to unjustly villanize them and ostacize them from a community that needs them and that they contribute to in a major way.

Evo3, I have all the respect in the world for you as a sculptor, but the group with which you hang and the group that is pushing these kind of things have already alienated themselves from TDH. Not sure why this issue is being brought here and why an issue is being created here.
 
I find the t-shirt a little tasteless, I understand the point of view and the idea, and support the need to tread the recasters down. But, even though it's not meant to slag the entire 501st, it still does whether you mean it to or not. Which I feel isn't fair in regards to everyone in the 501st who doesn't support recasters.

Could the Legion have a tougher line when it comes to dealing with recasters within their ranks? Definately!

Could the t-shirts possibly be made to convey the "true" message, that this is a statement made agains the CS staff? Probably.

I'd buy a shirt like this, if it didn't lable the entire 501st as supoprters of recasting.
Just my 2 cents.
 
They havn't said they can't they said that it is outside the charter of the club to police it.

I agree with Darth Voorhees this design single us out as a group, a group you belong to by your own admission, and calls us all recasters in a blanket statement. Have you thought of starting a petition to change the policy?
Heck I would sign it if you did. As for this shirt it does more harm than good IMHO.

I have had my stuff recasted in the past, if anyone wondered. That is why I find the blanket statement so offensive.
 
You know the shirt is funny, what happend to everyones sense of humor?

Quit getting all offended whenever there is a percieved slight to the legion. (n)
 
You are free to continue debating the recasting issue if you like but we have decided not to allow this shirt to be sold here. Regardless of whether or not the shirt is true or humorous, we are not going to allow something that is so inflammatory to so many and that serves no other purpose than to divide this community. If you choose to continue to debate, keep it respectful.
 
can someone explain to me how the 501st is doing something different than the rebel legion as far as recasting?

i don't get what exactly is meant by that.... does it just mean someone that is a known recaster is not allowed to be a member of the rebel legion and the 501st still accepts? or does it have to do with having recasted parts as part of your costume?




i guess i'm just confused about why this is a huge debate.....fight...whatever you want to call it
 
can someone explain to me how the 501st is doing something different than the rebel legion as far as recasting?

i don't get what exactly is meant by that.... does it just mean someone that is a known recaster is not allowed to be a member of the rebel legion and the 501st still accepts? or does it have to do with having recasted parts as part of your costume?




i guess i'm just confused about why this is a huge debate.....fight...whatever you want to call it

Its basically,if the rebel legion finds out amember recasting someone elses work,they will discharge you from the legion.

The 501st to put it simply,does not do this. They state they do not condone or support recasting though. Do i think they should do what the rebel legion is doing, sure i think it would be a good idea, i just dont think a t-shirt like this would help any.

It has nothing to do with having re-cast parts on your costume. Though i always buy from noteable vendors i know offer original work. I have owned recast parts in the past,but didnt know when i bought them...it was early on with my costuming/501st experience. Now i know better,and know who makes what and its easier to avoid and not support the recasters.Simply put, do your homework, find out who makes what your looking for,and support those artists and not the recasters. that will flush them out of the legion. unfortunately its near impossible to stop them completely, but they can be flushed out of the legion simply with knowledge.

Now,i am done with this issue, i didnt start costuming, or join the 501st to debate...i do this cuz its fun for me, and id like to keep it that way so over and out people!
 
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I think the issue of recasting should be one that is kept inside the walls, so to speak. By putting the opinion on a T-shirt it suddenly becomes a public political movement, which is not what the 501st is about. I don't support recasting, but this shirt does not resonate with me. This is not a 501st shirt - this is a personal rant shirt. It is the same thing as wearing a "501st" T-shirt that says something like "We really don't like Jo Wassisname because he said something that hurted our widdle feewings at the last event".

Nope. I don't think this is a good political move as a 501st effort. Dealing with recasters needs to be done in a different way. Just using these forums as a way to educate the potential buyers is probably the best way to go.
 
then the 501st should have a no recasting stance. by not having stance you are queitly supporting recasting.

It isn't that the 501st should not have a stance. It is a matter of how the T-shirt addresses the issue. The problem of recasting needs to be dealt with in-house... on the forums, in the meetings, etc. It is the people buying the stuff that need to be in-the-know. Your average jo on the street doesn't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about recasting. All the shirt will do is air out dirty laundry to the public and make the 501st appear to have political issues. The issues are internal.

I would say if the message is to be put out there then put it on the main page of the website. Make it a message to the potential buyers.
 
3rd time lucky...

darn posted earlier - but work firewall is playin havok
long post before - cant remember it all - the gist of it was

yes - the 501 does good work, no argument there
yes - 501 does have a stance on recasting - albeit; one w/o a bite

I would agree that in this case - inaction is akin to support. As it is often said, to allow a bad thing to happen, all it takes is a good man doing nothing.

can the 501 police recasting - again I can understand why it cant. we cannot expect the 501 to chase up recasters with a legal stick cos we all thread that fine line. BUT - I would have at least expected the 501 as a grp to actively disuade a member from recasting by blacklist him/her - not cos its officially illegal, but cos its something our grp does not condone or support. Isnt it the cornerstone of all replica prop collecting?

I mean proven recasters continue to post of 501 detachment boards - how can that be right?

lots have said - you dont play by our rules - why join up or just quit? Why not apply that to the recasters then? esp.ly since the 501 has stated that - "the 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting."

some have also said - you cant colour the whole of the 501 with the same brush. Well.... thats kinda wot the 501 leadership is doing to the majority of prop-maker-supporting-anti recasting costumer by saying " techinically its wrong, but we do nothing abt the recasters and take no stance if u knowingly are one or buy from one"

another point had to do with why single out the 501 - well; cos it is high profile. cos it does do good deeds. If the 501 were to take a more hardline view, I am sure more people would sit up and listen; it should lend its weight to the prop makers which are so important to the hobby. As for asking for Legion permission - isnt it the same attitude then? If they expect the same basic respect, then why not ensure the makers have it as well?

now to the topic of EVOs shirt - I echo CMNavy's comment - yes, its a little inflammatory, but hey its a bit of fun. And I support the underlying sentiment.

as for keepin it in house - well; its sold only on a prop/costuming forum - sounds in-house already. the average jo certainly isnt goign to buy a shirt like this. Its to inform costumers and prop collectors ie our community.

".....make the 501st appear to have political issues. The issues are internal."

appear? really? just appear? at the moment I dont even think the issue is 'an issue', internal/external or otherwise - at all with the leadership. In fact, in a way it takes people like EVO to MAKE it an issue and kudos to him for daring to stand up.

I mean - how many experienced old timers take time out to make a stand against recasting? We all say we are anti-recasting; how many stand up and be counted?
recasting - it happens, even more so lately it seems. but doesnt mean we quietly sit and take it? lots have already said that they are against recasting, that the 501 stance is soft.... well instead of shouting down EVO, some other suggests rather than just ignoring that the 501 (as good as it is in wot it does well) has a stance which lacks teeth.

something I have always wondered - we all talk abt educating newbies (myself included) - well; why then do recasting threads get sanitised on detachemnt boards? isnt that why the arguments comes up and up again - no one knows the guys who recast, all the usual suspects turn up to give the good (and bad) views. Why are discussions on recasting are deleted.... ?

EVO- count me in on a run. Last I will say on the topic - shifting to pm's

thanks to every1 for keepin it civil and for the TDH mods for allowing an adult discussion.

lol thats the short version

Nate
 
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just wanna ask does using another as a base for a modification -
say a faceplate but adding to it to make it better count as recasting?
ive heard some say yes to this thats all.
 
just wanna ask does using another as a base for a modification -
say a faceplate but adding to it to make it better count as recasting?
ive heard some say yes to this thats all.

I think you would find that most people would argue that using someone else's work as a base for your work would be recasting IF you then took the rworked piece and began selling copies of it.

If you reworked a piece for your own personal use, no issue.
 
according to origional work , you have to change 7 things about an item for it to be an "origional work". Otherwise almost all historical art would have be considered "copied or recasted". look at all the original classic Nude lady on couch paintings. 7 things bro
 
so tell me, how is a newbie going to know they are buying something recasted? and once they do find out, are they supposed to throw the item away and the hard earned money they spent on that item along with it? what about all the effort and time put into it as well...??

being an active member here, and becoming educated on different issues, ie recasting, i can provide guidance, information, encouragement, and the like to new members that havent been educated on these issues...is there anyway to inform everyone who the known recasters are, and make it accessible to new members? i know i would be ticked if i bought an item that was recasted, spent the time to build it up, paint it, and then apply to the 501st and not be accepted because my helmet was a BM, mystery, MR, or FP recast...that would not be cool, especially if i had no clue it was a recast...

if the 501st was required to police blatant recasting, wouldnt they also have to police every item on a costume when it was being used to apply for membership as well? like, having to make sure that every item on that said costume was legit? i dont see that being possible...and maybe that is why they dont police it, because it would have to be policed at every level...??
 
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kinda my point Fettdad - I agree it would be impossible for the 501 to police it. its often people like us, the individual fans and the prop makers themselves that do the 'investigations'.

once its been 'proven' or found out that someone is recasting, why cant it just be a ban for that guy - based on the already stated 501 line of "the 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting." even if its based on a - thats not the kinda of behaviour we like on our group?

thats what grates to be honest - no one has a problem with someone un-knowingly buying recast. we've all done it. definately wouldnt say destroy it; just work at it to make it decent again. thats ok.

But once educated, once informed - thats a completely different kettle of fish.

the 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting. It is, however, outside of the scope of this club's mission, charter, authority, jurisdiction, and purview to consume our time and energies as a volunteer organization in efforts to prosecute those who, of their own volition, choose to engage in re-casting.

by not doing anything - there are certainly abiding by the letter of that statement, not the spirit.

Its like saying stealing is a bad thing. We arent actively gonna stop someone stealing (and I dont expect you to - as u are NOT the police). the police turn up - caught the guy, show you the proof of the theft.
You turn around and say - 'oh yes, murder is bad. but its ok we already made that statement. we will just accept him back into the community w/o any penalty at all'

so - again - I dont expect the 501 to be the police, be the legal system, be the prison officer or be the probation officer. but be the community from which the perp comes from - and to say; what you did is wrong, we dont consider you part of our community/family any more thank you very much.
 
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So just that I understand; when I apply to become a member of the 501st in my Fett costume I'm going to have to list
Helmet = FP
Armor = FP
Gauntlets = FP
Boots = cheng
Flightsuit = LSFU

That seems a bit ridiculous to expect the 501st to police who and where I bought my props from. I've been putting this costume together for the better part of 2 years and have forgotten from whom I may have bought a certain part from. But now someone, somewhere wants me to have a list of every part so that I can be sure nothing is re-cast and then present that information to the 501st so they can police my costume. Again, this whole idea sounds a bit impossible. I know I've spent a buttload of money on my costume so far, and would be very upset if I found someone was claiming that part of it was "re-casted" without my knowing about it.
As with what FettDad stated. How would I have know who to purchase from 2 years ago if I didn't diligently do my own homework on who's who of prop building. If we keep thin "inside" then there has to be some sort of list that "newbies" can go to of who's who and what's what with "recasting" in the title.
I hope this doesn't come off as to one sided, I do not now nor will I ever support re-casting, but I was very ignorant in the beginning of my quest for a Fett costume, and could have bought some items without knowing it.
 
again - not policing Paramedic.
there are known recasters are allowed to carry on in the 501 despite being outed as recasters. even some CO's who openly use that statement NOT to do anything - check this out http://forum.bikerscout.net/index.php?showtopic=3882&st=20 ; post #31.

thats what I dont understand. to on-the-one-hand to say its bad, but yet do nothing about proven recasters amongst its ranks.

no one is expecting a new member to prove where their stuff comes from. like I said - if sttuff was bought prior to learning better, and it comes to standard, then its all ok. But to openly buy from a recaster is a big difference.

to the 501ers out there - what would you do it YOU knew there was someone actively recasting in your garrison? Would you or your garrison like to be associated with him?
 
This is the first time I've ever seen this. Is this for Fett parts as well?


as well as me...first time i ever saw it...:facepalm

now, i dont THINK i have ever bought something that has been recasted...i have had the means to go straight to the source of the prop i needed and was able to pay big bucks for the best items...what if i couldnt have afforded it? what if i went to ebay and bought some stuff that was cheaper, not knowing that there was even such a thing as "recasting", and bought some items that i thought would be great additions to my costume, and then later realized i had bought some recasts? do i get rid of those items in fear that the 501st wouldnt accept me cause they were recasts and start over again? i dont think that would be fair...

however, if i was able to be informed of such operations, and warned about recasters, that would be different, yes? what if there was a person making a Fett, Stormie, etc, that wasnt even part of a forum community like TDH? and never had the opportunity to be informed of such operations? should they be left out of the likes of the 501st?

dont get me wrong, recasting is wrong, it is stealing, and lazy...but i dont think the 501st should have to police it...
 
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