Zam Fabric

KayDee, I am a little confused, is the top left swatch the one you got from that store in Cali, or is it from your pantone book? And, is the "actual" (on the right) the same one that KimnCris had? and, if so, when you say neoprene, do you know if it was just thicker foam? I got the feeling from looking at the KnC shot that it was almost like headliner foam (like from a car) And, with your shot, there is no foam shot, so I didn't know if it was the same swatch. I inquire about this, only cause headliner foam - less dense, more thick, has a tendency to crease, and in some special shots that Zam is in, there are creases. If the neoprene relaxes which it does more easily than headliner, you usually don't have the creasing, Especially if it's hung on a mannequin. Just some tidbits on how density of foam and type of foam and thickness of foam's reaction on what you see in pictures. I know in dressing a galaxy they said "neoprene." But technically, there are tons of different types. Partial dissertation on neoprene here:) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoprene
Yep, ZIA neoprene is open cell. I figured they (Trisha Biggar) would've use something thicker for short time length movie shots and (and budget). But for practical at home sewing purposes and costuming (in all climates )purposes, I had the neoprene co. thin it down as much as possible on the off chance that people could sew it at home. Even though, technically, it would be better to sew it with an industrial. I didn't want people passing out, thus open cell. If it was closed cell, people would suffocate like vinyl does.

Flash and angle sure does make a difference.

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Kaydee pic with flash
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KnC pic with flash
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Kaydee pic no flash

normal_zamfabric2.jpg
Stretchhouse pic comparison (no flash) from another thread.

Take into consider movie filters screen shots, photoshopped promo pics, vd pics, etc.

ColorPurp.jpg


Look at Kaydee's pic next to knc's how hard is that to discern?! :eek:! ZIA fabric (her 1st and 2nd pic flash and no flash- bottom left swatch) looks closer to Knc's shot imo. What do you think? The sheen is the biggest problem. Short of taking the swatch from the actual source swatch to a professional dying company to match the pantone, we're never gonna get it 100%. That's what I had hoped long time ago to get when the huge "dressing a galaxy" when all the swatches came out. Mine book didn't come with a zam swatch unfortunatly. Boy, was I scouring.
Visual dictionary or Dressing a galaxy called it dark lilac I think. But Kaydee's top left swatch is pretty darn close without the flash, but Kaydee's pic with the flash top left swatch, almost looks too pink imho.

I just wanted to play devil's advocate, and also help people reconcile the feelings of the need for accuracy and what people will ultimately wear. Accuracy of color according to which photo, screen shot, lighting etc. is what we can all plainly state, that it matches one or some of the xyz shots. Obviously, unless we had the real swatch to take to the manufacturer, we can't be 100% and there are "closer colors." I am glad that the ZIA fabric is one of the "closer" ones and the fabric is has a sheen to enable lighting variances :) I do also see the need for a drabbier gray.
 
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Top left swatch - lycra from a California store. It was too reddish/pinkish. I just brought it in case.

The actual on the right is the same one Kim and Cris looked at. It was from Steve Sansweet's collection. Kim and Cris just didn't have your fabric in hand for comparison and by 'memory' thought yours seemed right from what I understand. I tried to take a 'foam' shot and all came out blurry. The color of the foam was dark charcoal/blackish. It was light weight so seemed to be open cell. I can't say if it was like headliner board foam. I have lots of that but just can't tell you for certain if that is what it was. I just have a memory that it seemed more like a neoprene, not headliner foam... but I didn't analyze it that hard. I'd think headliner foam wouldn't make a very nice suit and trisha's team would know to use something better :(

Your neoprene thickness is just about dead on. Yours was only a very minute fraction narrower. Yours was thinner by literally the thickness of a hair (or a piece of fabric), I swear! So you made the right call on the thickness you chose for sure!

My blurry side by side 'foam' shot. Sorry, my camera didn't want to focus. I tried twice and gave up.

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Your fabric is still the closest we have. Regardless of how the color looks in kimncris' shot and photos in a book, my picture showing yours right next to the real thing shows the variance. Yes, I think your fabric has a bit more sheen. But even w/o flash and with the naked eye I have to say for the sake of research (not to bash your fabric at all!) the real fabric is darker and grayer in color. A dash more red undertone to it too (which is probably why my top swatch looks OK in no flash shots, but no flash shots are not a good clear representation of color due to.... lack of light!)
 
Yep... I still say we did good! (Meaning mostly ZIA :D ) That color is just so HARD to get - it really does depend on the lighting and the angle you're looking at it from! Adding film/digital camera colors on top of monitor colors to the mix - well, we're lucky we're even talking the same language here! :D

And honestly, I think the the bodysuit we saw at FIDM had faded (especially after reading about what happened to MonCal!) - so I think the color we were comparing it to then was different than the original color.

I really think when making this costume, you need to pick a color that is similar and that looks good to you and simply base the rest of the colors of the costume off of that. This costume isn't for sissies! :lol:
 
Well, my hubby thought, why not weather it, then scotch gaurd it :lol:
(y) to what Maulmaus said. Maulmaus, you contributed a lot too. ;) Technically, we can credit DCB for everything -- he's the one that went all the way to Aussie the first time. ;)

Trisha and her team "not knowing." I don't think that is the case, it's just that certain material just provides different looks, and it was for their movie shooting outcome, and not to serve our particular costuming needs but-theirs. They could've just picked up fabric at a "left over" warehouse for all we know, instead of having it custom done. Our guess is that they probably did about the same number of costumes as Jango's but we could be entirely wrong. I know that there were at least 5 gauntlets made. And, I know that there probably was a hero suit vs. a stunt suit. We've been picking crumbs of info since 2002. Different types of neoprene for different purposes, and, if it's thickness was different by a hair, then, I don't think it was headliner foam. It's just that Cris' shot was taken so close, it looked thick enough to be headliner foam. We're doing best guess still. So, I guess we should just raid Sansweet's closet again, this time with a pair of scissors ;)
 
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Hi I've just joined the forum and I'm just about to start my Zam costume. I've been looking for the correct neoprene here in the UK.

I've not gone through all the posts yet and excuse me if this has been mentioned before but has anyone tried dying or painting neoprene?

I've got a good source for neoprene here but just not the right colour :zam
 
Well... we had the lycra which covers the neoprene custom dyed for us (Thanks to ZamIAm) several years ago. But dyeing neoprene itself... I don't know. That is synthetic and problematic at best - impossible at worst.

Dharma Trading Company here in the US carries just about every kind of fabric dye available. I'm sure there is something similar in the UK - many of their dyes are European. Dharma also has lots of information available on their website about dyeing different fabric types, so you might find your answer there.
 
Thanks Maulmaus for the information. I didn't realise it was lycra covered but that helps as I've dyed lycra before and had some good colour results.

Cheers,

Natalie:zam
 
Thanks Maulmaus for the information. I didn't realise it was lycra covered but that helps as I've dyed lycra before and had some good colour results.

Cheers,

Natalie:zam

May I ask what you used to dye your Lycra? I'd like to dye neoprene to match my pantone swatch but the only way I've been able to dye nylon lycra in the past was with quite a bit of heat over the stove + Jaquard Acid Dye. Are there any dyes that will work without heat, as there is really no way to heat the lycra/neoprene lamination in a dye bath. First of all, the volume of the neoprene is a problem. Second, I suspect the heat would compromise the bonding of the lycra to the neoprene.
 
Hi Kay_Dee,

I used Dylon multi purpose dye in a Burco Boiler to get it really hot. Colour was fixed with salt. I started with white lycra and the end colour was a bright lapis blue.

You certainly have a point about the heat seperating the lycra from the neoprene! It would be a bit of a disaster.

Hopefully I'm going to get some samples this week of different lycra covered neoprene. If I get time I'll have a go at dyeing it and see what happens.
 
Thanks Maulmaus,

Looking at the samples in the photos above, the original swatch in the first post looks quite matt in colour and with the flash?? Then looking at the Zam publicity shots the fabric looks more shiny?

A friend once used a fabric for some dance costumes which had a neoprene backing but had a cotton based stretch top fabric. I'm investigating where it came from. Will post when I have more info :zam
 
Hi Kay_Dee,

I used Dylon multi purpose dye in a Burco Boiler to get it really hot. Colour was fixed with salt. I started with white lycra and the end colour was a bright lapis blue.

You certainly have a point about the heat seperating the lycra from the neoprene! It would be a bit of a disaster.

Hopefully I'm going to get some samples this week of different lycra covered neoprene. If I get time I'll have a go at dyeing it and see what happens.

Another huge problem... even if you could heat this up without compromising the bond of the fabrics... the volume of fabric is just so great when the neoprene is attached. You need to dye all the fabric at once and unless someone had some kind of massive industrial vat I don't think there is any pot big enough for a stove (or outdoor burner?) to fit the needed amount of fabric into :(

I almost wonder if there was a way to dunk something like the neoprene I got from Zam I Am which in something like a solution of jaquard textile color/paint just to gray down the color a bit? That wouldn't rely on a heated dye bath... maybe even airbrushing?

As far as how shiny the nylon should be... I did notice that the Zam I Am run of nylon was a bit shinier than that used on the movie costume. The movie costumes nylon does have shine to it, it' isn't totally matte in texture at all. It's just not as shiny as the Zam I Am stuff.
 
I almost wonder if there was a way to dunk something like the neoprene I got from Zam I Am which in something like a solution of jaquard textile color/paint just to gray down the color a bit? That wouldn't rely on a heated dye bath... maybe even airbrushing?

That's why I wondered out loud what effect UV rays might have on it. Would it just lighten it? Or perhaps it would wash out the color to make it more grey. I don't know, but I might try putting a piece out. I wouldn't be surprised if the original fabric you had a sample of had faded over time.
 
That's why I wondered out loud what effect UV rays might have on it. Would it just lighten it? Or perhaps it would wash out the color to make it more grey. I don't know, but I might try putting a piece out. I wouldn't be surprised if the original fabric you had a sample of had faded over time.

No no no, I really don't think the difference between the Zam I Am run and the real screen used fabric swatch was due to UV exposure or anything. I think she did the best she could without having pantone guides in her hand, relying on someone else's matches from an oddly lit exhibit - etc etc. The difference in the Zam I Am run and the real stuff is just due to limited information. Not UV exposures or anything IMHO. Dying is tricky business and very frustrating to get color matches. And she had the extra challenge of not physically being the one mixing the dye and just trying to pick something based on lots of photos taken in so many lightighing situations and subject to random photo color processing (photos are often not printed true to color! That's why each photo of the real zam costume taken in studios and in the movie look different.)
 
Just a theory but I wondered if the original Zam costume colour was airbrushed?? Picking up on Kay_Dee's point about how difficult it is to dye lycra covered neoprene because of the volume but also the risk of fabric separation. Mind you I'm sure thay had plenty of facilities to make these costumes!

There seems to be so many tones in the dye which I think could be achieved by airbrushing over the finished suit. The neoprene backing would help to control the lycra and stop the dye leaking through. Just a thought.
 
Just a theory but I wondered if the original Zam costume colour was airbrushed??

I really doubt they airbrushed it. It didn't really look that way... the swatch I inspected by hand. Nylon can be dyed. LFL had a huge budget for special fabrics and what not - they had a lot of things custom made for them for those Padme and Queen Amidala gowns for example by textile specialists. They would have had zero problem doing their own run of custom dyed nylon and laminating it to neoprene the way Zam I Am did twice for our group.

They could have either shopped around for nylon colors and then had it laminated to neoprene, or they could have played around with dying nylon themselves and then gotten it laminated once they achieved the color they liked.

Our problem here as fans is we don't have the massive fabric budget they had for the prequels. Otherwise if I had a boat load of money I could dye my own nylon and get it laminated to neoprene. I remember researching it a while back and it was going to be really expensive to do a small run... but I was really thinking about it. And now that I have a pantone match, I should probably look up those old e-mails to see what the place I had found was quoting me... it was so long ago.
 
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I have the same problem getting correct regimental wool colours for Napoleonic uniforms. I have to order at least 60 metres in one colour!

How many metres was a small run of the lycra covered neoprene? Was the lycra laminated to the neoprene in a continuous length?

Thanks for all the advice :zam
 
We each got 5 yards of the fabric (We're on this side of the pond... ;) ) But I'm thinking there were 10 or 12 people on the run? So 50 or 60 yards was done in that first batch. It was all done commercially and I believe it was all one continuous length or maybe cut into 2 parts for shipment. One company dyed the lycra and then shipped it to another company to laminate it to the the neoprene.
 
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