"Customs" - Cannon vs. Imagination

wookieegunner said:

Something to help your imagination:

http://clonetroopers.net/Forum/index.php?showtopic=3446&st=0&p=48378&#entry48378

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I'm the guy on the far right with the ROTJ Fett Blaster.

Nice.

The boss and I (Xzen - Corbantis)

And although that is a bit across the board, there is definitely a limited color palette in Star Wars Galaxies for Mandalorian armor.

ShocKWavE said:

Nice.

The boss and I (Xzen - Corbantis)

And although that is a bit across the board, there is definitely a limited color palette in Star Wars Galaxies for Mandalorian armor.

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I quit SWG before I could get my set. Was on the Bloodfin server, the PvP server. Now Im testing on my friend's SWGEmu server, with my jango colored mando

Customs are what you make of them. Some people want to have theirs look like nothing we've seen and some want to just change colors on Jango or Boba, to each their own. I've said before that being custom means no one can tell you you're wrong, we can give advice on how we think it could look better but in the end it's up to the wearer and how they like it. For my three customs I'm keeping somethings straight on like the armor shape but I'm also going my own way, two of my helmets don't have the standard RF and the third is an off the wall gag/joke costume that I wanted to make to get some laughs.

I'm lucky to have found someone in the same city as me that wanted to make a custom, we shoot ideas to eachother all the time and if we get stuck we usually post on HVM to get feedback there. Of all the ideas I've come up with and shared I have not once been offended by someone's remark. If we all looked the same it would get boring, new ideas are what drives customs. I personally do not like making a costume that looks "cookie cutter", the more I can change while keeping it identifiable the more I like it.

While I think we do need some standards as far as quality we shouldn't knock someone down if we don't like their idea. If someone has cardboard armor we should encourage them to make a new set out of a better material, if they have a large shield on their gaunt instead of the flame thrower, rock on.

In the end I think we should just support each other in making the best costume we possibly can. On that note, I'm off to find more gagets for my armor.

Im new to the Dented helmet and Im kicking myself for not signing on sooner. Too bad there arent another 8 hours to a day.
I see some familiar names here and thats cool. This is a very interesting topic and I have to say there are some interesting opinions and statements on this thread.
Im relativlely new to custom costuming, and it was the guys and gals over at mandaloriansupercommandos.com that inspired me to get into the hobby. I really do enjoy the creativity that goes behind every costume to make it unique. It looked like alot of fun. but I do understand what some people mean about designs looking hastily slapped together, or rigs that are to far outside the box that they look nothing like something found in Star Wars. Now I know that not eveyone works for a visual effects studio but there are alot of awesome people out there costuming that give easy to follow tips and techniques that make a huge difference in the way a costume will come out in the end. Ive seen some really great Mandos out there and have recieved crit and tips from the Mandos at MSC and my beskar'gam is doing great. Its taking forever but its coming along. Maybe my sniper patience is coming in handy.
Maybe its because Ive been a soldier for so long, but there are some Mandos that just dont look the part, and people are afraid to tell one another their true opinion and dont offer a constructive crit in fear of offending. We have to be our own quality control, and we have to be prepared to take crit as well. I post my progress when I can because what looks "Star Warsy" to me might not to everyone else, and though my Mando is my own interpretation of a Mandalorian I also want it to be believable "in universe".
I think that if guys and gals stick to what Mandalorians are (super soldiers) and stick to their core needs (soldier gear/kit) without getting funky, the costume ends up looking good.
I have to say that without all of you costumers, the ones that know who I am, my beskar'gam would probably look like crap. Ive recieved alot of tips, and help, and crit that others obviously either dont get or dont care about.
We should definitely support one another to make the best we can. I just want to thank you all for getting me into an awesome hobby.

soo umm.... i read most o fthis. yes cool! love the topic think its moven great.... but what about modifying the armor? more important the breast plates? your considerd jango or boba because that is common, but what about changeing it? i said you btw cause i haven;t made a boba or jango, did help my friend though.

and i have herd say that there were many mando clan and Jango and bob balong to the fetts?.. am i right?

Well I am posting in this thread, because as of late, I have seen some cases of people saying things about customs...that..really kinda, not really bug me, but make me think.

I have seen posts of things like "That is really a CUSTOM" and so on, in different threads, over the past two days.

My thoughts about those types of comments: Nothing is truly custom, and the fact is, almost everything goes off of some sort of inspiration. No matter how cool, or out of the ordinary, or "non-traditional", it went off of something.

Especially with Mando costumes, the only reason we have Mandos is because of Boba and Jango Fett, then came the EU on them.

My question: What are the other mandos then if some people think they are not entirely "custom" ?
Just because they go "traditional" with their costume doesn't make it any less of a costume.

I used both, Jango and Boba parts on my costume, why? Because I can't make anything completely by hand, I don't have access to moulds and fiberglass, and things of that nature. Even the people who make something out of the ordinary go off of something already made.

There isn't a difference between any custom mandos, some are just better than others by quality, nothing is entirely Custom.

I agree with the Clayster and I'm glad you pulled this out of the depths because this is an interesting argument.

Its also kind of disconcerting when I see people painting the same old Rubies helmet exactly the same as say...a Jango and then just changing the blue to say...red. There's a little more that I think should go into a custom and I definitely see that in Marrow Sun's work in the Dented Variant forum.
Also, I think the mismatching of the Jango/Boba gear is a good way to "mix it up ."

My question: What are the other mandos then if some people think they are not entirely "custom" ?
Just because they go "traditional" with their costume doesn't make it any less of a costume.

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The Clayster, you shouldn't feel slighted that some people don't consider a "mix and match" or a "Jango repaint" an entirely "custom" mando. It's just the way some people are. Some consider that the classic "Jango repaint" to not be custom enough, others on the other hand, believe that it is. In truth, it's much like you said, not everyone has the resources or the skill to "remake" custom parts. It's a bit like cars, there has to be a base to build on, so you are correct in saying that nothing is completely custom, unless it is built from the ground up.

In all honesty, a custom mando should still be recognized as mandalorian, and if you do get called boba or Jango, then I believe you can take it both ways, either "yay, I look mandalorian enough to be mistaken for boba or Jango" or "bummer, I guess I'm not custom enough and still get mistaken for boba or Jango" and seriously, both reactions are totally legitimate. After all, you are doing the costume mostly for yourself.

I personally think that some customs really are overdone, while some just add that little extra to make their customs stand out from the crowd, a different helmet, a different armor plate setting or an outlandish accessory. All in all, yes I do believe that a custom is slightly more than just a repaint, but that's just my opinion, I don't believe that you have to build your custom part by part and make it completely different from the model it is based off of, since obviously, you still want it to be recognized as mandalorian.

I wouldn't worry too much about nay-sayers, because like I've said, not everyone has the skill or the resources to make or buy a scratch-built costume part(s). Much like "real-world" mandalorians, you do with what you have, and if it gets the job done, then it shouldn't matter what tools you are using.

As long as the effort you put in building it, and the end result makes you happy, then it shouldn't matter if anyone says it's not "custom" enough for their tastes. Remember, everyone has an opinion, and as long as they're not being rude to you, you should be able to respect it even if you disagree. (and vice-versa)

As for the rest of the thread; there will be colors that will be used more than others, black, for example is a very dominant color scheme among customs, and why not, it's considered "badäss" to be in black. Similarly, white is also very popular. On the other end of the spectrum, silver and green are avoided colors, specifically by those who don't want to be called boba or Jango.

The "multi-colored war" is still there, the contrast and the amount of variety is not just as pronounced. If you think about it, whole mandalorian squads could decide to be all in the same color scheme so that there is some form of "unity" in their group, or they could decide they much rather have individually colored armor so they can easily recognize each other. Either way, there's no right or wrong decision.

As for standards, the "looking like it could have stepped of a movie set" could work as a base, but then again, not everyone has the same standards as to what would constitute like looking as if it just stepped of a movie set either. So you see, unless there is a unique organization that will "standardize" custom mandalorian armor quality (much like the 501st), there will always be discrepancies and levels of quality in armor.

Ideally, our little group should be honest and give constructive criticism instead of saying that everything looks good, or "yuck" your custom looks bad. Honesty among the custom-builders is the only way we can assure that the level of standards for custom mandos will be elevated.

Comments like "another Jango repaint" doesn't help, but "hmmm, I personally think that it looks too much like Jango, maybe you can tweak the paint job a bit" is already a bit more helpful. Praise and criticism is good, but it should always be constructive.

As a member of the 501st and a Dented Variant, I feel I have a certain bond with both groups, but I have always and will always be a Mandalorian fan at heart. When I first saw Star Wars around 15 years ago, as a 7-year old, I was hooked by Boba Fett. The rest of the characters in the trilogy were cool, but none of them came close to the affection I had for the Fett man and his T-visor.

The 501st is an elite costuming group dedicated to the canon Star Wars universe. I find it frustrating to have spent so much time and money on a canon trooper outfit only to have someone criticize me and the rest of the 501st for not accepting any and all SW costumes submitted for membership. It undermines the credibility of the organization to let in any old person with an unworked latex trooper mask or a Rubies helmet. It's not discrimination, it's just the way the group works. You can't hold a grudge against the members of the 501st for sticking to the original goal of the group. I think that a group like the Mandalorian Mercs is exactly what's needed to satisfy the needs of the collective custom Mandalorian popuation.

That said, I find absolutely nothing wrong with custom Mandalorians. There were millions of them over the years, and no two of them looked the same. Different color schemes and armor pieces and weapons are a great way to add personality and a unique touch to a set of armor.

I do, however, tend to shy away from some of the more "Earthy" armor pieces, like soccer gear. I'm not saying that they can't be made to look "Star Warsy," but most of the time they are very easy to pick out for what they are. I also tend to avoid crossover armor pieces, like predator gear (left looking exactly like predator gear), as I see it purely as a novelty. Also, there needs to be at least SOME resemblance to known Mandalorian armor, otherwise anyone can take any outfit at all and say it's a "custom Mandalorian." The T-Visor (the only apparent consistency over the thousands of years) or the chest plates or something needs to be there to somehow identify it as Mandalorian.
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Summary:

- 501st is for high-quality, canon costumes. Deal with it. lol
- Customs are great, but should adhere to at least a minimal amount of recognizability
- Sports padding and other "Earthy" armor is hard to disguise.
- Mandalorian Mercs is a great idea.
- Above everything else...

Vode an.

:cheers to ya Jaster TK-1580.

Mando Mercs is a good site, they are doing a good job, but some costumes I see accepted in that club is kinda like:
"What are you guys trying to accomplish?"

NO offense, but that is what I see with some of the mandos there.

I run into a problem as mentioned earlier in this thread:

"I agree to a degree, but at the same time you are not really helping anyone out my dishonestly reinforcing low quality efforts.

There is so much knowledge here that even on a budget, you can learn to create very nice and accurate armor. Certainly over time, this becomes somewhat expensive, but it all does not need to happen over night. For $25.00 one can pick up a 8' x 4' sheet of sintra that goes a long way (GE Polymershapes). Many go straight to paint before giving a thought to fitting. Many grab random toy guns, hit them with paint, and call it a day. I realize that some are more experienced crafters than others, but I am of the opinion that anyone exercising enough determination and patience can become an expert. Criticism is largely subjective, but blindly reinforcing every effort neglects the criticized valuable potential. The lower the standard, the more the entire group deviates from its potential."

Qoute from Shockwave.

Firstly, let me say thank you to Clayster for bringing up long debated and at some times I'm sure heated argument.

I for one believe that evey non-Boba/Jango Mandalorian costume should be considered a custom Mandalorian costume. Building a custom takes imagination and creativity because unlike the Boba/Jango costumes our colors and many times design come from our own imagination. I for one know that I don't have anywhere near the skill level in molding as someone like Marrow Sun, but that shouldn't by any means make mine or anyone else any less of a custom character. It takes the same love for Mandalorians that we all have to commit to building a custom costume.

Do some customs need some work? Yes, I would definitely say they do. However just as Commander-13 has said, you can't just tell someone they look bad. The key is to be an example and criticize constructively while adding positives you see in their current costume and how they may add bits to make it better. Everyone has different costuming skill levels, and advancement comes from pushing positives, not negatives.

On to the topic of standardizing the custom mandalorian costume. As far as the look of the costume, I don't really think it's possible to do that. There are so many different armor styles and configurations that one would take years cataloging them. What we do in Mandalorian Mercs is this: We have 3 catagories of armor templates you can use you classify your character. Light = Boba style, Medium = Jango style, Heavy = 50% or more body coverage. We ask for good quality armor from our members as far as "standards" for quality goes. There is no assigned paint schemes, we leave that up to local clans to decide if they want to go that route. Custom armor is a very personal idea and manifestation, so we try to impose as little rules as possible while keeping with a good quality level. After discussing this with so many people here on TDH and within Mercs, this was really the best and only solution for quality and standards we felt we could honestly impose on non-canon costumes. I honestly think it's as far as it's gonna get for customs.

I think another thing that should always be focused on is that with organizations like TDH and Mercs, we give the Mandalorian community an idea and peers base for those who are crafting their first or sequential sets of armor. They come to our sites and forums, see pictures, and want to craft armor that looks as good or better then some that they see. Thats what I call a silent positive =D Because those are the people who take what they see and build on it, instead of building straight from the hip.

To go back to what Clayster said about being called repaints etc. I think the people who call us repaints need to go back and take a look at their own armor. Not giving us the credit as Custom Mandalorians in my eyes makes it look like their own costume is lacking and they are just saying to whomever "It's just a repaint, nothing special." to take away the attention. Everyones armor is special to them, it's an extension of their imagination and creativity. Not everyone is going to be the same, hence the word Custom. Not everyone has the same skill level as others, however they shouldn't be bashed for it, but nurtured and encouraged to fulfill the highest possible facet of creativity for their character.

To end I would like to thank The Clayster for his very good post on this topic, and I'd like to thank Jaster TK-1580 for believing in what Mandalorian Mercs is trying to accomplish for customs everywhere.

The Clayster said:

Mando Mercs is a good site, they are doing a good job, but some costumes I see excepted in that club is kinda like:
"What are you guys trying to accomplish?"

NO offense, but that is what I see with some of the mandos there.

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We hope to see costumes that while they are basically good enough to accept into the club, become improved by being around their peers. We have members who's armor may not be the greatest, but are constantly improving it based on what they see from other members. Some members are always going to stay at the "just get by" level. That's in every costuming club, be it 501st, RL, JA, or whomever. The only way to fight that is to surround them with top quality costumes and hope they are inspired to rise to that level to.

Everyday I see a member using a new technique that they hadn't used before to make their armor better. In my eyes thats improvement and the desire to improve.

The Clayster said:

I run into a problem as mentioned earlier in this thread:

"I agree to a degree, but at the same time you are not really helping anyone out my dishonestly reinforcing low quality efforts.

There is so much knowledge here that even on a budget, you can learn to create very nice and accurate armor. Certainly over time, this becomes somewhat expensive, but it all does not need to happen over night. For $25.00 one can pick up a 8' x 4' sheet of sintra that goes a long way (GE Polymershapes). Many go straight to paint before giving a thought to fitting. Many grab random toy guns, hit them with paint, and call it a day. I realize that some are more experienced crafters than others, but I am of the opinion that anyone exercising enough determination and patience can become an expert. Criticism is largely subjective, but blindly reinforcing every effort neglects the criticized valuable potential. The lower the standard, the more the entire group deviates from its potential."

Qoute from Shockwave.

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I agree with that Clayster. However, I'm of the opinion that you can't add in a negative without a positive either. Just always seems to work out a lot better if you start the criticism on an up note instead of a down. The moment you begin talking bad about someone's work they become defensive, and then your behind a wall that you gotta pull down before you can start helping them. Even the worst costume at some point has a positive to build on, even if the only positive is that the person wanted to build the costume.

Imagine this: a section of TDH or some other costuming site where everyone who wanted to could submit picture(s) of their costume to be rated by the rest of the community. A comment system to allow constructive criticisms, and a feature to allow users to update their pictures as their costumes improve.

You could even go so far as to have two member galleries - one for initiates, who are just starting or are in the process of constructing their outfits, and then one for veterans, or those who have finished their costumes and achieved a certain rating. If the user is finished working on their outfit, and hasn't achieved a "finished" rating, then they could just send a message to a moderator and let them make the deciding vote.

It would depend heavily on the good intentions of the userbase, but I think that TDH could pull it off.

Jaster TK-1580 said:

Imagine this: a section of TDH or some other costuming site where everyone who wanted to could submit picture(s) of their costume to be rated by the rest of the community. A comment system to allow constructive criticisms, and a feature to allow users to update their pictures as their costumes improve.

You could even go so far as to have two member galleries - one for initiates, who are just starting or are in the process of constructing their outfits, and then one for veterans, or those who have finished their costumes and achieved a certain rating. If the user is finished working on their outfit, and hasn't achieved a "finished" rating, then they could just send a message to a moderator and let them make the deciding vote.

It would depend heavily on the good intentions of the userbase, but I think that TDH could pull it off.

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As good of an idea as this is, I think this would only serve to separate the community in the end. You would end up with the *Have* and *Have not* individuals, and vets who would end up looking through magnifying glasses etc.

The initiative for rating would have to come from the costume creator themselves for it to be and stay a non-biased opinion. Submit your own costume forum is a good idea, but then isn't that what we have already though?

OK, my 2 cents....

I not keen on customs, but I'm not adverse to them either. THe only thing I do find "annoying" for lack of a better word is how often we see a Boba or Jango with a simple change in paint job.

If you buy a red Camaro, paint it blue and add some racing stripes it's still a camaro.

I absolutely love MS' custom work. He completely mods the helmet and armour to create something completely spectacular.

I in no way want to offend anyone and I am not bashing any custom mando's we have here, I just think there is more to a mando than a simple respray

Well I was kind of thinking that the "Haves" could educate and help out the "Have Nots." TDH has been known to come up with a 'Pay it Forward' of sorts, sending out free armor pieces on good faith that the recipient would reciprocate and send something that they aren't using forward to someone else who needs it.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dedicated page, maybe on each person's profile, with a radio-button set of 1-10 or 1-5 options, where, should the user choose to submit their costume for review, the general population of the board could rate their work. Purely voluntary, but beneficial in the sense that one could put their work up to be rated without everyone having to shuffle through pages and pages of text to actually see the pictures and/or rating.

I dunno. It was just a thought. I wanna see everyone with their own uniquely awesome armor, as I really enjoy seeing costumes evolve.

While that is true, I agree to a degree of what you say.
Mine is a "simple re-spray" with a few different things done to it, and will have more over time, but if you base a character off of something, you still want it to look like that something you went off of.

A simple re-painting Boba or Jango still looks cool, while there may be more to it, it still takes talent to make something different enough to set itself apart from it's own counterpart.

I find it hard to stray completely away from Boba and Jango, since those are the ones that you see all the time, and are very well done.

It still takes an active imagination to do something different, be it quality or not.

to Novall: I realize there will always be those people who just get by, but in the case of Custom Mandalorians, they are usually known, and expected to be low quality, so when you have a few members with "Just getting by" costumes, then it brings the club down as well. I have no problem with customs, but the things that bother me, I see in your club, not that I am the president of Customs or anything, that is just my opinion.

Also, on any mando forum, if you post progress, someone seems to come along and almost copies your replica/prop, of your own creation. Take something simple as a kama, and put it on a mando, then once one person sees it, he does it, then another, then another. I am not saying that anyone here or at LFL invented a combat skirt, but once someone does somethign a tad out of the ordinary on a costume, some people tend to copy it.

I kinda have a problem with that sort of thing, because it then makes your costume look like the rest, and as a custom, I try to set myself apart from the others by doing things of that sort, but I now see that my ideas (while they weren't that original) on my costume have been done after me, and a few times before me. Which is prior to always happen no matter what.

I used Shockwave's custom as inspiration, for some things, I think his is awesome.

I love all the imagination that goes on here, just some people don't like me.

mandalore697 said:

OK, my 2 cents....

I not keen on customs, but I'm not adverse to them either. THe only thing I do find "annoying" for lack of a better word is how often we see a Boba or Jango with a simple change in paint job.

If you buy a red Camaro, paint it blue and add some racing stripes it's still a camaro.

I absolutely love MS' custom work. He completely mods the helmet and armour to create something completely spectacular.

I in no way want to offend anyone and I am not bashing any custom mando's we have here, I just think there is more to a mando than a simple respray

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