I'm beginning to make a Vacuum forming table but i need to know a bit more on how to build molds.
Discussion on Any tips for molds within the Prop Building Workshop forum, part of the Community category; I'm beginning to make a Vacuum forming table but i
I'm beginning to make a Vacuum forming table but i need to know a bit more on how to build molds.
Hey, Im in the same boat as you, but I think one way of doing it is making the sculpt out of some hard clay, make a plaster mould of it, and then using that plaster mould, cast the vacu-form mould out of resin or some hard material of the sort...
-tubachris
Ive heard of that too. Seems a bit hard doesn't it? Im no Michaelangelo!
Im not either, and ive never done anything like it before. So, how do you make moulds?
-tubachris
I dont know. Maybe....no.....If I find anything else I'll tell you.
There are diagrams I found online that have all the pieces minus the helmet, with all the measurements, Im using that for the molds I will help make for the group Im gonna be working with soon. Fortunatly, one of them already has a vacu-form machine...
-tubachris
what website is it
mdf is cheap and easy to make molds out of. I use it to make molds for guns and things like stormtrooper/biker scout armor.
otherwise sculpting out of clay works like a charm. Depending on what material you use, making a negative to make another (harder) positive may not be necessary.
this should be very helpful http://www.tk560.com/stormtrooper.html
-=QuinN!
I always thought about using MDF for making the molds, but I dont have any wood working tools for it.
-tubachris
Consider sculpting in pink (Owens Corning) or blue (Dow Styrofoam(TM)) insulation foam, making an intermediate plaster waste mold, and casting a sturdy buck in that.
Don't vacuum form directly over pink or blue foam. You won't crush it, but you'll scrunch any protrusions stretching plastic across it.
There's a couple of relevant threads about this going on over at tk560.com.
Here's one:
http://www.tk560.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=418
There's another thread about hot wire cutters & jigs for sculpting foam, in the vacuum forming forum.
What is MDF
Is there any particular reason why you like this smiley so much??Originally Posted by Morphen Jar
What is MDF
ETA: Good grief... just read your profile. You are 12.
No futher questions.
What would I use to cast the buck out of after making the waste mold from plaster? Really dense resin or some kind of liquid cement hardner?
-tubachris
For short run stuff, or an intermediate mold I wouldn't form directly over more than a few times, I might use something like water putty or gypsum cement, with drywall tape reinforcement.
For something really durable, I'd probably go with a resin impression coat, and lay up some fiberglass of some sort under that. Maybe just a healthy layer of Bondo-Glass. (Which is not like regular Bondo. It's not easy to sand, and it's much stronger, because it's filled with glass fibers instead of little microbubbles.)
If I still wanted to be able to sand and modify it easily, at the expense of making it somewhat less durable, I might start with a layer of regular Bondo. Then, deeper than I'd ever want to sand away, a healthy layer of Bondo-Glass for overall strength.
BTW, don't trust me on this. This resin/glass stuff is all still on my to-do list, not something I've actually done. (Today I'm experimenting with hot wire cutters for the foam part... I'll get there eventually.) I have done plaster waste molds and reinforced water putty casts, but not fiberglass.
Paul
hmmmm I don't think giving a 12 year old directions on vacuum forming is such a great idea, I didn't know you were 12 man.
LOL, well I need it, and im 18...
-tubachris
You want the best way to learn to do molds. Go to the " YouTube" web site and type in Resin Molds, Mold making, or some other variation of that. They have tons upon tons of how to videos showing you the material needed to make accurate and structural sound molds.
I dunno, I was using an electric saw (portable jigsaw) when I was 12. I don't see vacuum forming as being that dangerous. You might get a painful burn, but probably nothing disfiguring or even permanent, and you probably won't cut off any appendages. The most dangerous part is trimming the plastic with Sharp Things.
Whether it's something a 12-year-old ought to be doing depends a whole lot on the 12-year-old.
Umm you have to put plastic in your oven. I think thats a bit more dangerous than using a jigsaw. The only people I've seen get hurt with a jigsaw were really stupid. It's practiaccly impossible to hurt yourself with one unless you're trying to.
Also, any vacuum forming molds have to taper outward towars the bottom and have no "lips" for the plastic to get caught on. The most tricky part of it is designing you molds to get around this issue.
Hey I could do it! I'm more carful than that! But all !12 year olds are under estimated.
I don't think careful is the issue here. The big one would be do you have experience? As in experience with potentially dangerous power tools and access and knowledge of safety equipment to use against dust and fumes. I'm a careful person, but does that mean I want to dive right into foundry work, dealing with molten hot metals without experience? Nope.
Im pretty expeirienced and im smart.
Please stop using that smiley. It's very annoying.
Fine
Now no ones talking to me cause im twelve. You'll all see! You'll all see! Im gonna make some kick butt armor. Then you'll all see!
atleast he's not trolling
And just so you know morphen, you don't NEED to vacuum form armor. you can use other materals and just bend them with hot water. You might even be able to get a member here kind enough to cut you some.
How would you bend it into something?
or wait you put it in hot water and then suck it onto the mold?8)
no, cut it out and bend it to the shape after warming it in hot water, use sintra. it's a cheap form of armor that will just be upgraded anyway. I think there is a member on this board that makes armor that should be about your size. do a search for it.
you mean bend it with your hands
Not unless you have highly skilled feet.
Hahahaha,
Anyways, given that you are 12, I don't know if explaining the process of building the vacc oven and the forming table are such a great idea. You are better off like the others say heating up sintra somehow and forming it that way.
To Tuba,
The forming table if you're interested in the cheapest piece. It just takes awhile to construct. I made mine out of wood, mdf, steel, and vaccuum attachments. The box is made out of wood with mdf reinforcements. The forming surface is a sheet of mdf with steel on the top. Then I measured out a grid of squares every inch. Holes are drilled at every intersection (this is where most of the time is spend making it). The bottom houses the vaccuum attachments. This site is good for showing how to make the oven http://www.tk560.com/vactable4.html, otherwise you could also just make a hardibacker cement board box and put a grill in it or some heating elements if you don't want to wire an oven with nichrome wire and ceramic posts.
mdfs I'm going to start by are some of the best molds. I've used plaster, insulation, clay, and resin/fiberglass but i still get the most pulls from mdf molds. Plus they are super easy to repair. All you have to do is sand them a bit and smooth them off with bondo if you start getting damage to them.
Most of it is covered on the tk site if you have other questions
-=QuinN!
yea, Ive been using his site for awhile now actually. Im just trying to figure out what I want to make it out of. I think I may go with makinng the molds out of MDF, but then I would need to get some better tools, LOL my little dremel can get me only so far. Its seems pretty self explanitory on how to do molds from it, stack layers of the general piece's shape, and stack those pieces until you get it tall enough to sand off and shape. Seems alot easier then doing the sculpting, plastering and then having to cast again. Fortunatly, one of my buddies who's making stormtrooper armor has a vacu-form machine, and a "**** load" of polycarbonite sheets he has left over from something he said having to do with cars. He says he was wondering if we could make the armor casts out of that, but I dont know much about polycarbonite. Thanks guys.
-tubachris
It's not clear to me that using lots of boiling water and massaging the boiling-hot plastic with your hands is safer than vacuum forming it.
Baking plastic isn't much more dangerous than baking cookies, except for the fumes. With good ventilation, it should be safer than what people usually do with sintra. (Especially if they use a heat gun. Now that's a scary tool.)
If you can get by with a 12 x 18 or 12 x 20 oven, you don't need to do any of this.To Tuba,
The forming table if you're interested in the cheapest piece. It just takes awhile to construct. I made mine out of wood, mdf, steel, and vaccuum attachments. The box is made out of wood with mdf reinforcements. The forming surface is a sheet of mdf with steel on the top. Then I measured out a grid of squares every inch. Holes are drilled at every intersection (this is where most of the time is spend making it
You can make a decent 12 x 20 oven out of a 2-burner hot plate and some disposable aluminum pans, for around $30, and you don't have to do any wiring. (You don't have to modify the hot plate at all, except maybe to remove end caps.) The most dangerous part is cutting the thin aluminum pans---thick aluminum foil can give you a nasty "paper cut"---but it's skill level 1 if you're careful with your tin snips:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=621858
If you use a portable electric grill and make an over-and-under (top heater) machine sorta like Ralis Kahn's, you also don't have to build a hardibacker box---just turn the grill upside down, put it on stilts, and put an aluminum flashing skirt around it. (Again the most dangerous part is cutting thin aluminum.) That's skill level 2, maybe. (The only electrical wiring you need to do is to open up the thermostat gadget and clamp it closed with a nylon wire tie.)
Here's Ralis Kahn's design:
http://www.halloweenfear.com/vacuumformintro.html
Here's a thread about it you should read over at tk560.com if you're considering something like that:
http://www.tk560.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=390
(One nice thing about hot plates and portable grills is that the electrically live heating elements aren't exposed... the steel jacket on the calrod element is electrically neutral.)
Which raises the question... how big a vacuum former do you need? What are the biggest dimensions of your armor pieces?
(I'm building a 2 x 2 foot nichrome wire oven myself, because I do want a big one and am comfortable with electrical wiring. But people shouldn't overlook the easier smaller possibilities.)
-=QuinN![/QUOTE]
does the Vacuum Forming table have 2 tables? Like one has the big hole where the vacuum hose goes and another Piece of wood on top of that with a bunch holes in it?
Dude, kid, you need to take some serious advice here… While I can fully appreciate your eagerness to learn and build in this hobby. This is an adult’s game. It takes a lot more than just saying “I want to build this….” To make this happen. There are good reasons that it is against the law to drive a car until you are 14-15 and even than it’s under the watchful guidance of an adult. The same holds true for the tools and techniques we use in this hobby. I’ve had friends cut their fingers off, light them selves on fire and in general do a great deal of physical damage to themselves doing what you are asking about.does the Vacuum Forming table have 2 tables? Like one has the big hole where the vacuum hose goes and another Piece of wood on top of that with a bunch holes in it?
My advise to you is if you want to learn more about this subject, or anything that adults do, go and ask your parents and that’s the bottom line.
(wait… for it…. Wait… for it….
That's a good way to do it.does the Vacuum Forming table have 2 tables? Like one has the big hole where the vacuum hose goes and another Piece of wood on top of that with a bunch holes in it?
If you're only making one piece at a time, having a zillion holes does you zero good. One big hole in the middle of the platen works at least as well, as long as you put your mold up on spacers. (Which you should do anyway, because as soon as the plastic is mostly sucked down, all the holes further out are covered up, and the only ones that do you any good are the ones under your mold. At that point, one big hole works better than a zillion small ones.)
If you need to distribute the vacuum across multiple molds, you can put something on top of the platen that lets air travel from around all the molds, under them, and to the big hole.
A lot of people just put a piece of aluminum windowscreen down, so that there's a little space under the plastic that air can get through. That's a little thin, though, and there can be bottlenecks. I have a chunk of pegboard board with thin wooden spacers under it that I can put down across the big hole, and put multiple molds on top of that.
That's roughly how a lot of industrial machines work. One big hole, and if you need to distribute vacuum across multiple molds, you just put a vacuum-distributing layer on top of it. It's not built in.
Having a bunch of holes is a little bit worse than useless if you want to mask off part of the platen for forming small sheets of plastic. It just makes more holes you have to cover up.
With one big hole, you can tape down sheets with different-sized gaskets on them. (Having a bunch of holes doesn't make this a lot harder, as long as they're not too close to the edge---you can just make each tape-down sheet almost the size of the platen. But that does mean you have a somewhat bigger edge you have to make sure is sealed.)
Paul
I have never heard of anybody cutting off a finger or setting themselves on fire by vacuum forming.
I fail to see how this is so all-fired dangerous.
The kind of vacuum former I'm talking about does not even require the use of power tools to build. (You can get by with a hand-cranked drill and a hand saw, no problem, if you have somebody at the hardware store cut the main board to size for you, which they'll do for free.)
I was taking shop class and using a table saw when I was 12. This is nowhere near that dangerous.
I'm not talking about building a Thurston James oven, though. There you're dealing with 120V electricity and exposed conductors. That I wouldn't let my kid do... no, actually, I would. I just wouldn't let them plug it in until I'd inspected it. And I might cut the backer board to size for them, which takes about 10 minutes. Everything else, a responsiblee 12-year-old should be able to do just fine.
Paul
Just trying to be a good citizen man…
I think he was just saying how the hobby entirely is dangerous, not just vacu-forming. I will say I have had some close calls wil my dremel...cant aford to lose fingers or else I cant play Tuba! Thanks paul for all of your advice, I'd be lost if it weren't for information found here from people like you.
-tubachris
(Now off to make the MDF molds...)
Jon, sorry if I sounded like I was biting your head off... I appreciate the "safety first" thing, and do that myself sometimes.
I just wanted to make sure that people know that vacuum forming can be pretty safe, even for not-very-handy-or-expert people, if they avoid things like messing with 120V current and breathing styrene monomer fumes; there are safer alternatives. (Like using a prefab heating device & using water putty instead of Bondo.)
Too many of my grownup friends never got into making things, and don't even own an electric saw. Maybe a drill, but no saw. They can't make even simple things for themselves, which I find pretty sad. If they can't find pre-built in a store, or can't afford the store-bought version, they do without. Yuck.
I'd hate to see an enthusiastic kid discouraged from making cool stuff. (Especially learning to make their own tools to make cool stuff. I think that's the kind of educational and enabling thing that kids should do more of.)
It's true, the auxiliary tools can be kind of scary. I'm at more risk from my razor-sharp scoring tool than from my Dremel, though.I think he was just saying how the hobby entirely is dangerous, not just vacu-forming. I will say I have had some close calls wil my dremel...cant aford to lose fingers or else I cant play Tuba!
(Another safety warning: don't breathe the fumes from cutting plastic with a Dremel. It generally melts the plastic a fair bit, and burns it a little. Burning plastics give off toxic fumes that properly heating them doesn't. Don't use a Dremel on plastic if you're not going to make sure the fumes are blowing away from you. If you're smelling it, that's bad. And if you're not going to be pretty careful about fumes, don't even heat most plastics; stick to relatively safe ones like styrene and PETG. Avoid Sintra and other PVCs, urethanes, etc.)
LOL I probly shouldnt say anything about safety, becuase I have yet to wear a mask when using the dremel at all. Didnt have any eye or nose/mouth protection when cutting the fiberglass for my fett helmet either. At least now Ive started to wear some spare remington shooting glasses when I work with cutting the PVC stuff...Even then, people think I look like a crack addict after im done
I actually found my breathin when playing Tuba to actually improve, but I circular breath anyways....
-tubachris
(Who wants to break the world record for holding the longest note)
It's either a Wii or a vacuum forming table. But seeing Wii's are sold out like everywhere I'll go with a Vacuum forming table.
Have you checked this website ?It's either a Wii or a vacuum forming table. But seeing Wii's are sold out like everywhere I'll go with a Vacuum forming table.
http://www.studiocreations.com/howto...ble/index.html
This is the type of one hole design I belive Dr. Crash is talking about.
Nice and simple.
yeah ive been there. It's pretty informative.
yeah ive been there. It's pretty informative.
Man! My oven is too small
I built everything for under $100, and if you make any armor off of your OWN molds and sell it, you pretty much make your money back immediately.
If you spend $250 on it, than you must be buying some pretty high end materials for it.
Fumes shouldn't be a danger really, you are only heating the plastic, not melting it. It won't be toxic at all unless you melt it. The fumes won't really "harm" you right away, you won't fall over choking. But when you wake up the next day, you'll feel like you have a sore throat, and that's from the fumes being taken in.
To Tuba,
You can pick up a nice scroll saw for $120 at SEARs or some place like that. It is worth the investment. I wouldn't suggest a band saw since you'll want to be doing more accurate cutting work for molds. You don't need a heck of a lot more than that to make the mdf molds because there are short cuts.
I use my hand planar, belt sander, drill press, scroll saw, and hand sander because I dropped the money and might as well use them to beef up the molds, but you could easily just get away with using just a scroll saw to cut your shape, build them up, and then use bondo or spackle paste to fill in the gaps and round off curves. Then sanding it smooth.
Just trying to put some options out there for you.
-=QuinN!
I'm not sure what you're referring to here---the cost of the armor materials, or the vacuum forming setup?
It depends on the plastic, and it's not quite that simple even for "nice" plastics like styrene.Fumes shouldn't be a danger really, you are only heating the plastic, not melting it. It won't be toxic at all unless you melt it. The fumes won't really "harm" you right away, you won't fall over choking. But when you wake up the next day, you'll feel like you have a sore throat, and that's from the fumes being taken in.
The typical home vacuum forming setup---even a pretty good one---does not heat the plastic terribly evenly. There's usually a 30 degree difference between the middle of the heated side of the plastic and the corners of the other side of the plastic, even when the whole sheet is hot and soft enough to work pretty well. That makes it easy to burn the middle of the heated surface of the plastic just a little, but enough to release a little toxic gas, without knowing it.
If you're getting a sore throat, you're breathing too much plastic fumes.
Most of the fumes are probably just irritants, not real toxins or carcinogens, but there may be some stuff in there that's worse. Use better ventilation, and maybe get a $30 miscellaneous fumes respirator from Home Depot.
If you're messing with PVC, like Sintra or Kydex (they're blends of PVC and other stuff), be extra careful.
Hey guys ive have a list supplies I need for Vacuum Forming Table/Stormtrooper Armor. What do you think:
Plaster (Ultracal-30 or hydratone)
Utility knife
sculpting tools
small blocks of wood
trashable table
vacuum reducer nipple
thread pipe(To fit reducer nipple)
metal floor flange
screws
silicone gun
drill
metal joints
hinged clasps
8 1x4 walnut boards
foam/rubber weather stripping
roll of masking tape
paintstripping heat gun
32 vacuum frame .80 or .90 styrene plastic
pliers
gloves
wooden blocks
100 medium length 1/8 inch rivets
100 short length 1/8 inch rivets
200 steel/alumninium rivet backs
rivet gun
50 white snap buttons
button gun
2 yards black 1/2 wide elastic
1 yard white 1/2 inch wide elastic
2 yards black 1/2 inch wide webbing
1.5 yards white 2 inch wide webbing
plastic model cement
white primer paint
2 yard 1/4 inch foam with adhesive backing
2 foot 2 inch grey foam padding
white duct tape
(2) 4 inch square ventalation grills
black electrical tape
white weather stripping silicone
large sunglass lenses
semi see through dark cloth
weld-on brand ABS glue (either model #4707 or #1707
My table and set up cost be probable $75
The most expensive part being the 4hp vaccum. I just used a plank of wood and set it up on 2 horses instead of building an entire "table" persay. Its easy to move around and doesnt take up much space at all when your done since there are no legs, could be just put into a small closet if needed so save space.
If you have a Goodwill Blue Hanger store near by, you can usually get a fine vacuum for vacuum forming---just as good a good shop vac, and better than a crummy shop vac---for about $5.
See my "chapter 2" draft. It tells how to pick a vacuum cleaner at a thrift shop, using a piece of craft foam as a vacuum gauge.
http://www.tk560.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1
It also gives various ways of building plastic-clamping frames that let you use bigger plastic in your oven than the wooden frames from studiocreations.com. Those boards are fine for small stuff, but you really don't want to lose 3 or 4 inches each way when you're trying to maximize the size that will fit in your oven.
It'd be easier to give useful comments if the list was broken down by what things you use for what. (Sculpting vs. Molding vs. Casting vs. Vacuum Forming vs. Trimming vs. Finishing, etc.)
For example, I don't know what you plan to do with the walnut boards, so I don't know if they're The Right Thing. And ultracal sounds fine for making a mold, or casting a short-run buck, but it's not an especially good sculpture medium.
I'm not saying I get sore throats, I'm just saying that'd be a danger for someone heating the plastic and not paying too much attention. As far as not heating evenly, mine is pretty decent. The way I have my built the oven, the walls taper in so the area on the bottom is a lot bigger than the top so the heat circulates and goes up and hits all parts of the plastic. Using a top with an insulated handle also helps keep heat in, and i can shift it so a side can heat up more, and the heat can escape on the side exposed.
There is still some degree difference, but it's a lot better than square ovens.
-=QuinN!
Well I guess i'm kinda back, but I don't know if bumping is against the rules. Well I used up all my money and now have I think 75-100, but I don't know if I can vacuum form, still got to get better at sculpting. Might start over the Summer, because this is when my parents would actually let me do it.
I learned how to Vacuform in Junior High School when I was 12 in shop class. They had a Vacuform machine about the size on a suitcase. Oven on one side and vac table on the other. Frame that held the plastic, hinged between the 2 sides.
The next year, at 13 we learned how to weld in Industrial Arts. Haven't done either since Junior High, but I'd say welding is more Dangerous than vacuforming. but there are Dangers in Vacuforming if you are using an Oven to heat your plastic. So I've read.
So I wouldn't want to discourage a Younger Member. Just make sure You
Read about it and Understand what you are doing. Ask Questions if you aren't sure about something. And above all, Be Safe.
General Grievous
Hey dude.
Same here mate....
I get the basic shape out of clay and vac form it. Then if it's rubbish, change my clay mould until it's CLOSE. You can use the clay again. Or for small things I use air hardening clay ad then just use them.
Change your mould and pull it in plastic again.
Take your formed plastic off, then line the negative plastic shape with liquid vaseline and pour plaster into it.
Depending on what your doing you can use household brown plaster...?Most of the time I use Krystical Alpha K plaster. Very high detail and very high density. This makes it easy to carve/file as it won't fracture.
Wood carving chisels work great on plaster if used correctly. Keep em clean. That's how Vader was sculped too
Then pull away!
Make a note of undercuts and ease of taking the sheet off the mould and where you need fine detail use a piano wire in a drill chuck (bend it back on itself a few times) and score back and flatten the end of the wire and drill through to the bottom of your mould. Or just a 1mm drill bit. Usually very short though. Do these in corners etc to help the suction pull into the detail.
Never place high edges close to the edge of your forming area and never place high edges close to one another if you plan on forming several parts in one go. Otherwise they web. You can cheat and ush down with a cloth whilst the plastic is still molten but I'd rather avoid it and play safe.
Me and a friend made a kids TK suit in a day! So give us a PM if you need any info.
It's not hard
Good luck
Great advice. I personally use hydrocal for the plaster, wood carving and sculpting tools made of metal work great as do dental tools. Don't let anyone dissuade you from trying to do it on your own. You age is only a crutch or hindrance if you let your imagination be stifled. Good luck.
-x
In case you didnt see this before. there is a company that sells Cast Molding Material called www. smooth-on. com that has lots of resin and molding materials, I use this to cast a usable mold of my work for the rest of the process. and its also a good way to keep your original work preserved so if you need to make a new mold for the forming you can always cast a new one with out redoing a new sculpt. hope this helps.
Smooth on makes great stuff, it's just really expensive. There are a lot of other companies that offer comparable products at much more affordable prices to be honest.
-x
That smiley makes me laugh!!!!
The thing about smoothon is they use a lot of 'fillers' and some really.... nasty ingredients. Tuns of mercury, and other dangerous things.
I personally prefer alumilite, both for quality and for the safeness of the products, however, smoothon has some products you just cant get anywhere else. And for those, i use smoothon
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