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  1. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Oct 12, 2006, 11:30 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #126

    I caught a cold~ feeling miserable today. I will have to decide what to do tomorrow or when he sends me the material. I told him to send me the wrinkled mess, I figured, all I need is one foot of material to sew a welt seam. He wasn't inclined to send it. The problemo~ white lycra undyed may not have the same finish as the dyed stuff. So, if bonding it were to occur, I would need the dyed stuff. Every time I dye something it costs a lot.
  2. FANGS's Avatar
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    Oct 13, 2006, 12:54 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #127

    Wow.....just trying to keep up here so I can get in on the next order if possible and I can't BELIEVE your dedication to this project. It's amazing and I know that I certainly appreciate all your hard work and frustration! I hope the cold gets better soon!
  3. kimncris's Avatar
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    Oct 15, 2006, 5:54 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #128

    Thanks, Yvonne. I would also be willing to help pay a bit extra to get you another sample to work with.

    (also, I subscribed to this thread long ago but just realized based on your comments that I never receive any updates - wonder if my spam filter is stopping them?)

    Kim
  4. Iceheart's Avatar
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    Oct 16, 2006, 9:09 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #129

    I'm happy to kick in a few bucks for the sample test too.... Especially considering if we can get the double to work, it should be cheaper than the triple layer, and will cost me -a LOT less in terms of buying a new sewing machine!

    Julie
  5. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Oct 16, 2006, 9:18 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #130

    Quote kimncris said: View Post
    Thanks, Yvonne. I would also be willing to help pay a bit extra to get you another sample to work with.

    (also, I subscribed to this thread long ago but just realized based on your comments that I never receive any updates - wonder if my spam filter is stopping them?)

    Kim
    Check your outhouse box~ Deleted/Junk folder?
    I don't know. Something to email DCB or other mods about. Let me see if I can get that 1 ft of fabric ~how be it wrinkled. If that worked out ok, then I will save us all from lots more expenditures. Dyeing something always costs mucho money. So, we really don't want to go there if we don't have to. I will update as soon as I recieve it.

    I also took the liberty of changing the inner color to black instead of the old royal blue. I just thought it would be more in "keeping with the real thing."
  6. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Oct 17, 2006, 3:15 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #131

    Quote BFett333 said: View Post
    Wow.....just trying to keep up here so I can get in on the next order if possible and I can't BELIEVE your dedication to this project. It's amazing and I know that I certainly appreciate all your hard work and frustration! I hope the cold gets better soon!
    Quote JDFett said: View Post
    well ive decided that i costume for the appreciation of myself and the fans that see me...therefore i will have to reluctantly say..for fear of being acosted and strung up by those that are so hard core on things that IMO its rather silly, that I will be using an alternate method of construction for the suit as well as using colors that i feel represent the image of zam more..thanks for the offer ZIA, but i dont want my zam to look like barney..will go my own route
    BFett333 You've just taken JDFett's place. Is that ok? You pm'ed me earlier about wanting to get on the list. If there is an issue, pm me.

    If anyone else has an issue with color from the prior run, post a link to a color with that they think most fits. Don't just copy a pic, please crop a 1 to 2 inch square of your thoughts on what's the best "purple" into the following thread.
    http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/showt...374#post205374

    Thanks BFett333 for all your encouragement and appreciation. And MaulMaus, thank you for being a real friend.
  7. FANGS's Avatar
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    Oct 18, 2006, 4:00 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #132

    Thanks so much ZIA! I'm definitely still interested!
  8. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Oct 18, 2006, 7:51 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #133

    Sorry I have to change things around on everyone, but GREAT NEWS! I got the fabric back and although the lamination didn't work out evenly on the small run, you could tell that it would work for a larger one. I want to send out swatches to everyone on the list PLEASE PM me with your address if you have a by your name. Those with a sewing machine try a welt seam, and I will post picks soon of the "folds" in the arms. Unfortuneately, i only have a really small amount to give everyone, cause the only salvagable part was really small. I am undecided about the people who want to risk heat exhaustion and going through sewing nightmares, wanting real neoprene as aposed to the double fabric. But in either case, hey, remember to give me your emails, addy and form of payment so that this will run smoother. (only those on the list) I can't post prices yet until I have consensus on certain things. MaulMaus- you'll get a swatch too, since you saw everything at FIDM. We need your imput.
    Last edited by Zam I Am; Nov 14, 2006 at 2:27 PM.
  9. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Oct 20, 2006, 11:44 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #134

    I can see if I can put a welt seam into the fabric myself before sending it out. It may save everyone time. Anyone know of a good sewing link I can follow for welt seams? Also, I haven't posted pics yet, can't seem to get a time in from hubby to hold it so that he can snap a pic.
    Last edited by Zam I Am; Oct 20, 2006 at 11:56 AM.
  10. Admin Staff MaulMaus's Avatar
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    Oct 20, 2006, 7:14 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #135

    This should help some .... Simplicity Seam Basics I still use my trusy Vogue Sewing Book more than anything! I'll see if I can get the page scanned and email it to you tonight or tomorrow morning ZIA!

    Basically you just sew a plain seam where you want it to be then press it to one side, trim the bottom layer back to 1/4" and sew the parallell seam 5/8" or wherever you want the seam to be. Ideally you should only sew through 2 layers of fabric, the outside layer and the one layer of the seam allowance.
  11. kimncris's Avatar
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    Oct 24, 2006, 1:02 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #136

    Quote Zam I Am said: View Post
    Sorry I have to change things around on everyone, but GREAT NEWS! I got the fabric back and although the lamination didn't work out evenly on the small run, you could tell that it would work for a larger one.
    That is great news, indeed!

    Kim
  12. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Oct 25, 2006, 10:46 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #137

    Ok, looking at some of the pics in comparison, sigh, I don't know, in some pics, it looks like double fabric, in others it looks definately like neoprene, because of the bulkyness. What do you guys think? Pull out all your pics folks. Your MOM ref pics too, and compare. I can't for the life of me decide.








    PLEASE those who signed up buy that have by your names PLEASE give me your info... I don't want to goto the post office 5 times just to send swatches out.
    Last edited by Zam I Am; Oct 25, 2006 at 10:51 PM.
  13. Iceheart's Avatar
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    Oct 27, 2006, 9:17 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #138

    Is that the double?!?! That looks AWESOME.

    It seems to wrinkle at the arm more like the screen-used stuff than like the first neoprene run, and there's a lot more bulk in that welt than I got with my straight lycra.

    I love it. thanks for the pics, ZIA.
  14. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Nov 6, 2006, 1:22 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #139


    Zam&Jango
    Goldenrod
    Foernakate
    RudyDarthG
    Vader674

    You guys are holding us up. Please gimme your info so that I can send out the swatches please! I have pm'ed you all twice. I have yet to find my sliver of the old batch for comparison to send along with the double fabric for your thickness opinions. I've been searching and searching...Arg! I have swatches all over the place, but can't find the swatch of the first run yet. Once I can get a consensus on people's opinion on double fabric vs. neoprene production, then two things will happen, the list will reopen for a week, then close, and final decisions on how the batch will go and cost, and then I will accept payment. And then the run will happen, with probably about a 2 1/2 month turn around time.
    Last edited by Zam I Am; Nov 6, 2006 at 1:41 PM.
  15. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Nov 13, 2006, 10:50 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #140

    Arg! No response, if any of you guys know the people above, please let them know I am searching for their response. Thanks! I don't want to drag out this ordering. As, any zammers wanting to get their stuff done before CIV will have it really rough. PLEASE respond soon. I am considering going neoprene with this batch but letting everyone have a yard of the double fabric for the welted inner thigh, if you choose to use it. That way, everyone would be "covered." And ~ not have to worry about industrial sewing machines for this one suit.
    Last edited by Zam I Am; Nov 13, 2006 at 11:18 AM.
  16. Iceheart's Avatar
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    Nov 14, 2006, 12:30 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #141

    So, ZIA, I know your word is law and I'll pay for whatever you make, but... I would really, REALLY prefer the double fabric. The idea of that much neoprene in a costume that's hot under the leather anyway worries me. I would much rather have something lighter weight, and honestly, it LOOKS a lot better too. The Neoprene looks way too baggy because it doesn't have the right stretch to bend at elbows and knees and it comes off looking like it doesn't fit.

    I would rather sacrifice a small amount of accuracy for a better look and more comfort.
  17. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Nov 14, 2006, 1:21 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #142

    I know for a fact that my seamstress made my pants too big and didn't form fit it at the knees. Her patterning was also a bit different from the actual costume. Comparing the shot with neoprene on different shots is what has gotten me stumped, it's a lot bulkier looking than the double fabric in some shots. I hopefully will be sending out the swatches of the double fabric and neoprene (once I find my little piece) to everyone on the list that i have addresses for, hopefully at the end of the week. I am sorry that they are so small. That way you can decide better. As for the heat exhaustion, different people have different costuming needs. Some people may just want it for a mannequin, and accuracy~ while most are doing it to wear it. At the same time, I need minimum number to satisfy a neoprene run. The decision is very hard to make. I think that if you made the crop top out of the 1 yard of double fabric, then you wouldn't have to worry about the neoprene being up top. Be aware, if you do the crop top out of double fabric, it will need to have tacking stitches to a black leotard underneath to prevent it from riding up, just like regular lycra. The pants would be neoprene, and all would be happy! Yes? Does that sound like a better solution? I am trying my best to satisfy everyone and the numbers too. Juggling this is really difficult. Actually, once you all recieve the swatches, you will have a better formed opinion, and hopefully, if I can swing the 5 yrds neoprene 1 yard double fabric it will satisfy everyone's wish list.
  18. Benkenove's Avatar
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    Nov 14, 2006, 3:10 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #143

    Thanks for your comments on these ZIA.. and for all the effort you are putting here... I'm dying to get those swatches... and can FEEL the fabrics in my own hand .

    What I can say is that... SO FAR, I really prefer neoprene... I'm for 100% accuracy... I really dont care if I dye of heat, or whatever, I have always seached for the most SCREEN ACCURATE as possible...

    Same example on my Vader costume... that is one of the most hard to wear costume in the world... a FULL 3 pieces leather suit + the armor pieces, + the 100% heavy wool tunic and cape... that is a pain.. but, is the most accurate, and that is why I chose that...

    Same happens here... neoprene is hot, for sure, but is the CORRECT fabric... so, more than sure I will vote and ask for the Neoprene ...

    My 2 cents.

    P.S. c'on guys, those who havent answered ZIA with the info, wake up.. we are waiting for you !!!
  19. Iceheart's Avatar
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    Nov 14, 2006, 3:29 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #144

    Quote Zam I Am said: View Post
    I think that if you made the crop top out of the 1 yard of double fabric, then you wouldn't have to worry about the neoprene being up top. Be aware, if you do the crop top out of double fabric, it will need to have tacking stitches to a black leotard underneath to prevent it from riding up, just like regular lycra. The pants would be neoprene, and all would be happy! Yes? Does that sound like a better solution? I am trying my best to satisfy everyone and the numbers too. Juggling this is really difficult. Actually, once you all recieve the swatches, you will have a better formed opinion, and hopefully, if I can swing the 5 yrds neoprene 1 yard double fabric it will satisfy everyone's wish list.
    I'm holding final judgment til I get my swatches, but at the moment I would still rather have the double fabric, for the whole suit. The lycra crop top I have now doesn't have a problem with riding up at all (the beauty of drafting a pattern that fits me perfectly), and I'm often in my armor for 6 or 8 hours at a time at events. I don't want to be one of the people who has to suit down every hour and cool off before I can go back out... I'd rather be out there playing the whole time!

    Benkenove, I can understand your desire for accuracy, but the neoprene that we have available to us doesn't seem any more accurate than the double fabric, as best I can tell... We can go too thick or too thin, but we can't get anything exact. I seem to remember Trisha's exact words being something like "Neoprene-like fabric" not neoprene. And if you look at how it fits, not just ZIA but the others from the first run, the neoprene doesn't move with the wearer like Zam's costume needs to. It just doesn't have enough stretch, and personally, I love to run in my costume. I don't want it flapping around me like a bag when I'm running down the halls of a con, chased by an Anakin. I'd rather it be a little thinner, a little lighter, and really fit TIGHT.

    But, again, I will bow to the majority vote here. I just really, really, really, really, don't want to use the neoprene if I don't have to.

    Julie
  20. Benkenove's Avatar
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    Nov 14, 2006, 4:44 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #145

    OK, Let's wait till get the swatches, and then judge ...

    But one thing... If I can run... jump, and make surf with my full body THICK neoprene suit, I think I will be able to do it with that fabric ...

    But once again, let's wait... cause I'm in the other side, I want it Neoprene !!!
  21. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Nov 14, 2006, 9:55 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #146

    I would say, I can troop 3 hours between breaks, but I definatly need hydration and wouldn't like to be in the sunlight at 80 plus degrees for too long. My hubby does a vader and he would need a break faster than me. Like I was at the Zooboo for 4 hrs no problem, at around 70 plus degree weather, no hydration. Feet were tired, but I didn't poop out like Dragon con 03'. D'con is 80 plus weather (at the end of summer in southern Georgia).

    I can run in my suit ~ I think at D'con, I had to run to make sure that I made it into the 501st pictures (I was late.) Like I said, my seamstress wasn't that great at making things fit well. I had so many "fittings" but she had never worked with neoprene before, so she was at a disadvantage and constantly disgruntled at me for having her revamping things, everytime I showed her a reference picture. Had I known earlier, I should have gone to a surf shop sewing repair person, I would have, but then again, the ocean city shops are 3 hours away, and would've had less patience than my seamstress! My pants were too baggy in some places because she just didn't make it as couture, even though it should've been more form fit. And I was pressuring her terribly to make it in time for Dragon Con 03'. So, instead of another fitting, I just wore it the way it was rather than have her alter it once more. You'd have to view another person who had neoprene undersuit pics ~ Moncal - who had his sewn by my seamstress but altered a second time, Gaeriel and who did it herself~ to really view bagginess.

    Actually, the tricot technically is "neoprene-like" and the technical term is polyurethane open cell material instead of "neoprene". But everyone on the market calls it neoprene for easier reference, because it's almost the same. Just like spandex is synonymous with lycra. I have a feeling if it was just a double fabric, they would described it as just backed lycra or have said something else. Spandex/lycra adhered to nylon= double fabric, and Trisha wouldn't have referenced double fabric as "neoprene-like." I have strong feeling double fabric isn't thick enough to warrent that terminology, unfortunately. Because "neoprene" almost always connotates some type of insulator like a foam. (I am just realizing this now as I type...) I know it can be confusing terminology in the textile world.
    I am my own devil's advocate. Gosh I feel like Tyler Durden. Stinky poo. Sorry for being more on the "neoprene side" with my comments on this post, Iceheart. I am glad actually to have a constructive debate about this and will be happy to hear anyone's pro/con comments after you all receive the swatches. I enjoy learning about how detailed Trisha and George was with thier selections, it makes them such a creative geniuses.
    Last edited by Zam I Am; Nov 14, 2006 at 10:02 PM.
  22. Iceheart's Avatar
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    Nov 15, 2006, 8:54 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #147

    Quote Zam I Am said: View Post
    Moncal - who had his sewn by my seamstress but altered a second time, Gaeriel and who did it herself~ to really view bagginess.
    Gaeriel's suit now owned by Holly B.

    MonCal's suit:


    My plain lycra (please excuse the terrible pic, I don't actually have any good ones on my computer at work, and my hose connectors were having a bad day. )


    The original:


    So it really looks like it falls somewhere between the lycra and the tricot, probably a thinner lamination process or something we don't have access to? Hence my reasoning for, I'd rather have it be just a touch too tight than to be too loose, especially at the knees where it hangs over the shin guards. Again, personal preference, and tempered by the knowledge that I will have swatches in my hot little hands shortly to play around with stitching.

    Apologies for the image-heavy post, but it's easier to look at these things with side by side comparisons.
  23. Zam I Am's Avatar
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    Nov 15, 2006, 9:47 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #148

    Totally see how it hangs over the knees though? I have a feeling double fabric would not do that. But my guess is as good as anyone else's. Neoprene, would though. I believe that with Moncal and Holly B's suit and mine ~ there is this problem with the "webbing." Webbing is the glue adhesive between the fabric layers. I believe that although it works, and stretches with the person and all the other layers, ultimately, there is some tension lost in the webbing when sewing and cutting the fabric. Seeing as how none of these people including my seamstress were as experienced in sewing this stuff together, everything is on the baggy side, because I believe all of them went under the assumption "better to have it a little baggy than to trim too much off and it be too small." "I can always alter it later." Reasoning. Thanks ~ for posting the images, I didn't have time last night to do posting references.
    Sorry to inform you that the swatches are REALLY small, I don't think you will have enough to play around with stitching. But, I can tell you my sewing machine is a kenmore that can sew through denim. It's not an industrial. So, you can see how I did the alternate method of a welted seam.
    Last edited by Zam I Am; Nov 15, 2006 at 9:57 AM.
  24. Benkenove's Avatar
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    Nov 15, 2006, 11:52 AM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #149

    Yes... there is no doubt about it... lycra, or doble layer (non-neoprene-like material) cannot archive that finish... the MOVIE ACCURATE finish...
    It's more than clear that the baggy issue, like ZIA said is cause by the sewing and pattern.. better be sure off course... But the same movie effecr can be made ajusting alittle more the costume...

    The lycra is too thin !!! and is something completely different... I can say the same with surf suits... is not the same (visually and talking about feeling), a simply black lycra vs. a black neoprene shirt... I can say this cause I have surf a lot, and I have had lycras and neoprenes... different feeling, weight, wide, etc etc...

    Once again, I'm dying to get th swatches, but I'm affraid nothing could change my mind about neoprene... ACCURACY FIRST !!!
  25. Iceheart's Avatar
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    Nov 15, 2006, 1:53 PM - Re: Neoprene under suit-second batch? #150

    Quote Zam I Am said: View Post
    Totally see how it hangs over the knees though? I have a feeling double fabric would not do that. But my guess is as good as anyone else's.
    Ditto on anyone's guess, but I think if the double was cut right, judging from the small test you did with the double-lamination that you posted the pictures of above, it could do that too. It seems like it has enough bulk that it could potentially behave almost like the neoprene in terms of bulging just a little at the knees. You can also "fake" some extra stiffness at the knees and elbows with thin interfacing if you needed it, to take out some of the stretch if it was TOO tight and fit more like the lycra.

    Darn on the sample size, but I'll get over it. Will just have to wait for my actual fabric to get here to start sewing, I guess.

    As for the fact that nobody on the first run was experienced with the fabric... I'm not either. *giggle* I've never sewn neoprene, or anything that thick, in my life. I live in landlocked Ohio, so surf shops are few and far between, meaning people who can make surf wear are also few and far between. So I'm kinda on my own here. It'll be an adventure.

    Benkenove, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "finish," but if it's as I understand it, the texture or shine of the fabric, both are going to be the same, as it would be the same lycra over top of both the double-layer nylon and the tricot neoprene. It'll look the same on the outside, it'll just be thicker and less stretchy with the neoprene.

    I know you're all about accuracy, and I would never try to talk you out of that (because I LOVE when people are that concerned with everything being "right" so their costumes always look amazing), but I do also think that the neoprene that we can get is NOT as accurate as we would like it to be (ZIA's post about the LFL budget above neatly sums it all up), and pattern drafting is only going to account for a certain amount of the bagginess we're seeing. I think the lycra backed with nylon only is going to behave more like thin neoprene than the tricot that actually contains the thin neoprene, just because of bulk and lack of stretch. Again, the pictures posted above give you a good idea of the way the double fabric will roll at the elbows and knees, like the real suit (we hope). It's going to move more like the very thin wetsuits that you use for warm-water sports, not the tricot that's approaching the thickness of cold-water gear once it's all layered on there. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-neoprene-rubber.htm has a nice writeup on neoprene as a material, and it mentions suits that go from .5mm up to 7 mm. Thickness on the tricot is 1.5-2 mm, according to ZIA, so it's up there in size after everything's piled on, even though it started as thin as we could get.

    Again, not arguing with your desire for accuracy at all, just trying to explain that at least from what we know so far, the double-lamination might BE just as accurate as the tricot, depending on how it stitches up, and we don't know that yet.



    Julie

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