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  1. Tyler Durden's Avatar
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    Aug 14, 2006, 10:00 PM - Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #1

    In a recently posted thread, I saw the image below and had a hard time justifying the inclusion of that phrase on the helmet. "Mystery Helmets" exsisted before Sarge and the proliferation of internet prop-peddling. Sarge purchased one of those exsisting "Mystery Helmets" on E-bay, recast it, and then sold it.

    Recasting was OK when he did it, but he's not OK with recasting his recast piece.

    "Recasters, myself included, suck"
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    Last edited by Tyler Durden; Aug 20, 2006 at 7:51 PM.
  2. Member Since
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    Aug 14, 2006, 11:09 PM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #2

    Quote Tyler Durden said: View Post
    I have a hard time justifying the inclusion of that phrase on the helmet. "Mystery Helmets" exsisted before Sarge and the proliferation of internet prop-peddling. Sarge purchased one of those exsisting "Mystery Helmets" on E-bay, recast it, and then sold it.

    Recasting was OK when he did it, but he's not OK with recasting his recast piece.

    "Recasters, myself included, suck"
    sounds like a hypocrite to me.......
  3. Member Since
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    Aug 18, 2006, 12:33 PM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #3

    Quote Tyler Durden said: View Post
    I have a hard time justifying the inclusion of that phrase on the helmet. "Mystery Helmets" exsisted before Sarge and the proliferation of internet prop-peddling. Sarge purchased one of those exsisting "Mystery Helmets" on E-bay, recast it, and then sold it.

    Recasting was OK when he did it, but he's not OK with recasting his recast piece.

    "Recasters, myself included, suck"
    Tyler, with all due respect, you're mistaken about MHs exisiting before I began offering them.

    I'll cut and paste the post explaining the origins of the MH here in a minute so I don't have to type it all out again, but I really wanted to get on here and address this before any more new people got the wrong idea about me.

    When I scribbled "Recasters Suck" into the clay in the visor, it was mostly a shot at that "Amiad???" guy on eBay who did recast an original MH, and from what I've heard, delivers mediocre casts at best. Maybe it was a cheap shot, but we all thought it was funny at the time.

    Back in a few w/ the cut and paste.

    -Sarge
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    Aug 18, 2006, 12:46 PM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #4

    Ok, here we go, all the way back from 11-19-2002

    To recap:
    Roughly 3 years ago, I bought a rough, primered, fiberglass Fett casting off eBay from a "KBoyette". At the time, the price was right, I knew I could make it nice, and it looked good.
    I just took for granted that it was probably a DP Deluxe recast, but as I set about cleaning it up, and started having to really look at the details to repair them right, I started noticing more and more discrepancies-
    The DP visor was shortened by roughly a 1/2" on either side; Mine went all the way back.

    The DP's had pre-done battle damage- scratches, bumps etc. Mine, while rough, had no real pattern to it's texture, and was more indicative to me of a well used mold that's surface was nearly worn out, rather than deliberate damage.
    Also, it was noticeably larger than any of the other Fetts I'd seen.

    Finally, around January or February last year, something in me ganged up and said "ASK AROUND about this thing", so I posted a thread on the RPF called "Sarge's "Mystery Helmet", asking people what they thought it was. After a week or so of debating, someone, who's probably forgotten more about SW armor than I'll ever know, posted that he knew what it was, and that my original was one of 10 bootleg copies that were made by Don Post employees while they had an original film used helmet in their possesion for laser scanning. This was for the development of the DP Deluxe Boba.
    I was amazed to hear this, and of course patted myself on the back for having a good eye.- When I bid on the auction, I had no idea what it was, I just remember looking at the pics and thinking "Yeah, I like the proportions on this one- it LOOKS like Boba!"

    So anyway, when this all came to light, I was in the middle of getting ready to mold the helmet anyway for a group costuming effort- Me and a few other guys were planning to do a group of custom Mandalorians for CEL 2.
    The aforementioned authority on the helmets lineage, got ahold of me in the meantime, and he was so certain of it's origin, that he offered me $500.00 for the first KIT out of the mold! That was good enough for me, and I started referring to them as 2nd gen copies of a film used helmet.
    Thanks for looking!

    -Sarge
  5. superjedi's Avatar
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    Aug 18, 2006, 2:05 PM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #5

    Sarge,
    Thanks for reposting that story. I had always heard rumors regarding the lineage of this helmet, but never knew any details.
    I had lurked on the board for quite a while before I registered, and remember that yours was one of the first "movie sized" helmets around.
    Glad you're doing a new run of these! I am also superjedi over on RPF, and just ordered one a couple days ago.
  6. Tyler Durden's Avatar
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    Aug 18, 2006, 7:38 PM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #6

    Sarge, glad to see you got your login problems solved.

    Unfortunately, you and many others have been misinformed in this area. The “10 Bootleg Helmet” story is an urban myth devoid of any substantial proof; to the best of our knowledge, the genesis of this myth is Jeff Ritzman from the RPF. Ritzman erroneously claimed that he had a direct copy of the ESB helmet, which has never been remolded, and that it was one of “10 bootleg copies” smuggled out of Don Post Studios. Long after Ritzman's post and still without a shred of evidence or proof, the “10 Bootleg Helmet” myth became prop-lore, misleading many respectable prop-enthusiasts during its proliferation.

    The “SW Armor” expert you consulted is one such individual who was misled by the myth. Though knowledgeable in Stormtrooper armor, your “expert” has no fundamental costume knowledge of Boba Fett. His opinion of your “Mystery Helmet” was based entirely on the “Bootleg Helmet” myth, which was common knowledge among senior RPF members. Your expert used his reputation, not hard evidence, to substantiate an otherwise vaporous statement.

    While the unwitting proponents of the “10 Bootleg Helmet” myth have been unable to produce supporting evidence, there is, however, substantial evidence that critically challenges the integrity of the myth. Over the years there have been so many of these 'original 10' helmets turn up that I can't help but be reminded of all the “authentic” splinters from the cross that are sold throughout the middle east. If all those “authentic” splinters were added together, a forest would be the culmination. Likewise, if all the supposed “original 10” helmets were brought together, they would likely rival the number of castings legitimately produced and sold by Don Post!

    Of the many “bootleg helmets” that have surfaced, there is one that not only predates the helmet Sarge purchased on E-bay, but also has a physical damage mark that corresponds to a mark on the Preproduction 2 helmet, which is not found on either the Sarge Mystery Helmet or the MS Mystery Helmet. The remains of at least one actual ILM-etched damage mark places it one small step closer to an original ILM helmet. This helmet-- the “Lava Helmet,” as it is dubbed-- may actually be the progenitor or at least a copy of the progenitor to all Mystery Helmets.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Additionally, I have heard from reliable sources accounts of Mystery Helmets being sold via Polaroid photos by Greg Stone in the late 90s before the advent of internet prop trading and collecting.

    Another aspect of the myth that does is the assertion that the “10 bootleg helmets” were smuggled out of Don Post while they had an original film used helmet in their possession for laser scanning.” The first attempt at molding an original helmet for Don Post Studios was in 1980. It's unclear exactly what was used to develop the Don Post Deluxe Fett helmet in 1995, but according to a former Don Post employee, a modified plaster plug was at the studio. Durasteel Corporation, who is banned at TDH for impersonating a woman in an attempt to extort a helmet from another member, claimed that he spoke to “several” Don Post Studio employees who told him about the laser scan. After extensive research, I have been unable to find any evidence that 3d laser scanning was a viable technology employed in 1995-96 at Don Post Studios.

    Please don't feel that I am attacking you. I am not. However, while I understand that you including "recasters suck" on your recasts was done in jest, it IS a bit hypocritical considering the source of your helmet. Regardless of what you thought the helmet was, you still recast an existing helmet that you bought from E-bay, and now deride individuals who indulge in the same practice.
  7. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Aug 19, 2006, 8:04 AM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #7

    For those who might be confused regarding TDH's stance on reacasting please read our recasting rules here:

    Recasting Rules

    As both Sgt Fang and Marrow Sun knowingly recast a helmet they bought off eBay, they would typically be subject to our recasting rules, and possibly face bannishment. However, the administration of TDH has deemed Sgt Fang and Marrow Sun' s mystery helmet recasts to be "grandfathered in" due to the unfortunate amount of misinformation that has been spread throughout the prop community for years regarding the fabled "10." Does this mean that the mystery helmets are now public property and you may recast Sgt Fang or Marrow Sun's mystery helmet casting with impunity? No. Doing so will result in bannishment. It may seem biased for the administration to turn a blind eye to one, or in this case, two self-admitted recasters, but we feel that these recasts were made due to a lack of information and/or the propogration of misinformation and were not made maliciously. For all future cases regarding this type of recasting, please note rule #4 in our recasting rules.

    Do NOT copy an unknown person's work. You purchase an item from eBay and do not know who the original maker of the item is. You then make copies of that item and sell them. If it is determined this item is a recast, you will be banned. Using the excuse of "I didn't know" will not save you. Either find out, or do NOT make copies.

    *Sgt Fang and Marrow Sun's helmets have been grandfathered in and they will not be banned. However, from here forward, this rule applies uniformly.


    Recasting is a "grey area" and a very slippery slope. Due to its inherent shady nature it is difficult to set standards that do not have some room for flexibility. There will always be a certain amount of debate and disagreement about fairness and legitimacy of any decision involving recasting. The administration is aware of this and has made every effort to take this into account with the rules we have set. If you have any further questions regarding this or any issue, please feel free to PM me.

    D
  8. Benkenove's Avatar
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    Aug 19, 2006, 8:44 AM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #8

    I understand the point very well, and if the administrators allowed this.. is ok... if your forum, and you have your rules...

    But one question... just out of curiosity... (dont trying to light the torch uo ) but... if in the past... due to the misinformation... this "recasts" were allowed... WHY NOW, if we all know that they are RECASTs... are allowed to make MORE NEW RUNS ???

    I think is ok.. following this point that they could do it in the past.. but now that is a FACT... wouldnt be logical that were not "allowed" ???

    Just a thought... I may be wrong... as always.. the "recasting" issue is hard to understand ...
  9. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Aug 19, 2006, 10:20 AM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #9

    Quote Spideyfett said: View Post
    Can we get back to the Subject?? .......BATNINJA'S BUCKET....
    I mean this could have been started on a whole new thread....maybe put up a "Sticky" !!
    Tyler's post which somewhat initiated the deviation from Bat Ninja's subject was relevant to the topic as BN pointed out the "recasters suck" engraving and Tyler's comments were directed specifically to that part of BN's post. From there, Sgt Fang's rebuttal and the additional posts regarding recasting were a natural progression that did lead away from BN's post but are all relevant. However, if the recasting issue continues within this thread, we will break it out into its own thread. There is certainly no need to make this or the recasting issue a "sticky" as we do not believe there is a need to call that much attention to this particular issue but do feel that it needed to be addressed.

    Carry on.

    D
  10. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Aug 19, 2006, 10:59 AM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #10

    I fail to see where a recasting issue "miraculously" sprang up here. Sarge's recasting of the mystery helmet has been common knowledge for quite some time, so much so that is was included in the recasting rules when we initially posted them over a year ago. Tyler was addressing the hypocrisy of Sarge's inclusion of the "recasters suck" quote as it implied that he has legitimate claim to the mystery helmet when the reality is that he bought it from eBay and recast it. We too hate to see recasting issues come up again and again but part of our responsibility is to keep our members informed which is what happened here. It seems that you are implying something elsse. If so, you are more than welcome to PM me or any of the admin staff with your concerns. For what it is worth, BN has been PMed regarding this matter and we are working with him regarding the potential splitting of the information in this thread.

    D
  11. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Aug 19, 2006, 11:19 AM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #11

    Quote The Dent said: View Post
    For what it is worth, BN has been PMed regarding this matter and we are working with him regarding the potential splitting of the information in this thread.

    D
    Thanks Dent....Best part of your response.
    Anything else in regards to this issue I'll leave to PM........as it should be.
  12. evan4218's Avatar
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    Aug 19, 2006, 12:11 PM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #12

    Quote The Dent said: View Post
    I fail to see where a recasting issue "miraculously" sprang up here. Sarge's recasting of the mystery helmet has been common knowledge for quite some time, so much so that is was included in the recasting rules when we initially posted them over a year ago. Tyler was addressing the hypocrisy of Sarge's inclusion of the "recasters suck" quote as it implied that he has legitimate claim to the mystery helmet when the reality is that he bought it from eBay and recast it. We too hate to see recasting issues come up again and again but part of our responsibility is to keep our members informed which is what happened here. It seems that you are implying something elsse. If so, you are more than welcome to PM me or any of the admin staff with your concerns. For what it is worth, BN has been PMed regarding this matter and we are working with him regarding the potential splitting of the information in this thread.

    D
    I dont find any more hypocrisy in what your stating about sarge's helmet then in the rules you have created on this forum addressing recasting. I would say address that and then you I would have less of a problom with the mods taking jabs at people.
  13. Lynn TXP 0369's Avatar
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    Aug 19, 2006, 3:58 PM - Re: SgtFang Mystery Helmet - A Review (pic intensive!) #13

    Thanks for the MH clarificaton Dan! I didn't know or probably forgotten that.

    Now what is with the plaster plug that Lee bought? wasn't that from a DP emplyee or something, I forgot it's lineage.

    Sorry for the further thread derail B, I couldn't remember if had anything to do with the MH at all..

    Lynn
  14. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Aug 20, 2006, 12:50 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #14

    There has been considerable nastiness in this thread and it needs to end now. While we understand this is a controversial topic, you are welcome to disagree with the administrations or any member as long as you do so in a respectful manner. Per our code of conduct:

    Treat others as you would like to be treated. Respect fellow members and their opinions. Respect must be extended to each and every member, the administrative staff included. Be polite and courteous to others and keep your messages in good taste.Disagreements are bound to happen. Approach them in a civil manner, with respect to the other person's point of view.

    Additionally there has been a number of alligations of "jabs" being thrown. However, there appears to be considerable confusion as to what a "jab" is. We look at a jab as a comment or statement that is inflammatory and designed specifically to draw out a member's ire or to irk another individual. A jab is in essence a "cheap shot."

    An example would be someone offering up a helmet for sale for $400. Then a second member offering a helmet for $200 and stating, "I don't overcharge for my helmets like SOME people who are in this for nothing but the money."

    That is a jab; a statement whose primary purpose is not to add useful information but to assassinate the character of someone else by innuendo. Posting a factual statement for the purpose of informing the community or correcting inaccuracies on the board to help maintain the level of accurate information available is not a jab.

    Taking jabs at other members could be construed as baiting or trolling and may result in bannishment.

    As always, if you have an issue or a concern with something the Administration has said or done, please PM us and let us know. We are always willing to listen to your concerns.

    D
  15. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Aug 20, 2006, 2:41 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #15

    Thanks for separating the threads........ ......
    Now back to your regularly scheduled program.... Batninjas bucket..... http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/showthread.php?t=14317
  16. Member Since
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    Aug 21, 2006, 6:34 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #16

    Tyler, It would seem I owe you a huge apology! How old is that pic of the "Lava Helmet"? That looks IDENTICAL to how I remember the MH pattern looking when I first pulled it out of the box years ago- seam down the middle, warped ears, crappy glass work and all. Does anyone know where it is now? 'Cause I think it may be sitting about 12 feet away from me with a pound or more of Bondo in it. 8)

    Is there any more concrete info on the Lava helmet and it's history?

    Thanks!

    -Sarge
  17. Member Since
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    Aug 21, 2006, 9:20 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #17

    If Sarge's helmet is from an original why does it have the rounded edges at the back of the cheeks? I thought the original helmets had a square edge.
  18. pennywise's Avatar
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    Aug 21, 2006, 9:40 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #18

    Quote TK3130 said: View Post
    If Sarge's helmet is from an original why does it have the rounded edges at the back of the cheeks? I thought the original helmets had a square edge.
    Is that a serious question or is this going to turn into a "Bash" Sgt. Fang thread? It seems that this topic has been pretty well covered to me. An original or not he makes a very nice bucket.
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    Aug 21, 2006, 9:51 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #19

    I have to say, his helmet is one of the nicest for the price, what he recasted from or where it originated from doesn't really matter. It is a recast, and it is allowed. I am not going to sit here and bash sarge but there is several differences between his and the original. Reguardless, if you don't like what he's sayig or doing, just don't buy from him. Why pick on it? I'm sure there's many other hypocritical statements you leave alone.
    Last edited by GrottyFurball; Aug 21, 2006 at 10:22 PM.
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    Aug 22, 2006, 9:33 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #20

    Quote pennywise said: View Post
    Is that a serious question or is this going to turn into a "Bash" Sgt. Fang thread? It seems that this topic has been pretty well covered to me. An original or not he makes a very nice bucket.
    It is a serious question. I never said it wasn't a nice helmet. I'm not "Bashing" him at all. In fact, I have one his helmets from a couple of years ago. Sarge was great to deal with and I'd recommend him to anyone. I've been debating on whether to get a different helmet or not. I'm just wondering why it is different. It's hard to see but the helmet Tylerdurden posted looks to have square cheeks. If Sarge's helmet came from that, why the change? I never noticed it until someone pointed it out now it's bugging me. I could probably fix it myself with a little sanding anyway.
  21. Member Since
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    Aug 22, 2006, 9:42 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #21

    I love sarge's helmets. but the triangles on the forehead are different, the cheeks are different and if it were cast from the original the back where the "keyholes" are would go striaght up and angle outward in the last couple inches. Now maybe he did make these changes. Maybe before he found out what he was working on was an actual cast of the helmet, as stated earlier I wish no offense on this matter but would like an explanation of why these are different if it was infact cast of the original.
  22. Tyler Durden's Avatar
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    Aug 22, 2006, 11:51 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #22

    ZR,

    If you go back far enough, you can trace the Mystery Helmet back to the Preproduction 2 helmet. However, it appears that either while the casting was at Don Post studios or in the hands of an other artist, it underwent "restoration" and "improvement," and some size was lost and many features were altered to correct the asymmetry of the original helmets, making the helmet a shadow of its former self.

    That is why the dome, bands behind the ears, the ears, the corners of the cheek, the keyslots, ect... are incorrect.
  23. Tyler Durden's Avatar
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    Aug 22, 2006, 11:56 PM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #23

    Quote SgtFang said: View Post
    Tyler, It would seem I owe you a huge apology!
    No hard feelings, Sarge. As I said, a number of people were taken in by the "10 bootleg myth."

    How old is that pic of the "Lava Helmet"?
    About two years old.

    Does anyone know where it is now?
    Yes, it is still in the same private collection.
  24. Member Since
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    Aug 23, 2006, 6:33 AM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #24

    Ok that makes sense
  25. Member Since
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    Aug 23, 2006, 9:49 AM - Re: Sgt Fang Mystery Helmet History Thread #25

    Yes it does. Thanks for the clarification TD.

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