Let's talk about flare. This is it.

Right, there were some good points in the other thread before I, and others, started fighting. Let's start again and there was plenty in the other thread that could be restated here for the sake of completeness so chuck it up again if it's relevant. Let's keep it objective, avoiding the other differences that are best left in that thread (you know what I'm talking about) and stick to the properties and observations of the pieces in hand; it's all on the table and everyone's opinion is valid. Anyone that wants a row can meet me in the car park. It'll be over in seconds.:devil

Does the esb have that mythical flare or do any of them?

Copied over from the other thread and edited to stay more on this particular topic.

I think the hero ESB is an anomaly..for whatever reason, but to me, it has a flare the other helmets do not, or at least do not as much. You can see it pretty clearly in these shots:





Recent pics of the hero helmet may appear not to have it but i think thats because most of those pics are taken fairly close up, and the lens def distorts the look when your that close. I know this because my helmets also have a bit of flare on them, but if i take a pic of it fairly close up, it gets lost in the photo. I have to take a pic from a few feet away, zoomed in for you to see it, just like in those screen shots above i posted.

Also i agree with you @intwenothor /Andy that the flare is not hugely significant overall. When you look at the FPH2 in person it doesnt scream out "oh look at that flare" but when the ears are on and you step back, looking at it in the slightly chin up position, its there enough to notice. Someone on the Pathfinder/bikerscout boards once said the human eye can see 1mm of difference in something, even if we dont know exactly where we are seeing it..we can just see something is different. Using that logic, i really think thats what it is. When i added the flare on my MR casts, i think i added 1/4" to the overall width which is only 1/8" on each side...not much at all...but when looked at at that same chin up angle, i see the flare, which is why im likely leaving the flare as is and will only make those other changes i mentioned if i ever get around to it lol.

For example, this is one of my casts taken from a few feet awayand it was on a shelf higher than me, so it is slightly chin up..and the photo is zoomed in and cropped


Now, in this picture, im wearing one of my casts as well, and i dont have my chin up lol..the flare isnt really noticeable here



But in this picture of my wife and her sister where im in the background..even though you can't see my whole head..it is taken from slightly lower and looks like it has more flare/width to it.



Thus really proving your point, its all about the angles/distance from a camera. I do feel the standard MR does in fact have a more straight angle on ears though. This may be a product of the pinched visor though..as if you take an MR, remove the visor and pull the bottom open to make the visor opening even...that touch of flare returns.


So my thought is, its there on all the helmets, but not as prominent as some may think. You never really see an angle of the ROTJ helmet quite like that dining room shot in ESB.. also Jeremy was super thin in ESB so that also can make the helmet look wider in general. He bulked up a little for ROTJ which in turn would make the helmet look less wide as well.

Yes! Thank the Lord for DVH.

intwenothor said:

Yes! Thank the Lord for DVH.

Click to expand...

LOL

Damnit......I was convinced that the ESB did have the ever so slightly greater angle on the ear platforms. I am, now, completely unsure of what I believe. I have to ask myself if all of that was related to the chin angle view on all those classic pictures.
On the former pics that DVH had posted, even the pic taken in between filming exhibited the flare. But digging thru this afternoon finding the pic of Art with the helmet it seemed to look as much like any other existing Fett lids thru production (except for the brow wave) Need to import those pics over here.

And even as my slow butt was typing DVH was makin it happen, lol.

LOL. I do think there is just a touch more flair on the ESB than any of the other helmets. Just not a huge difference that i think was thought in the past. I remember seeing some casts from quite a few years back that had ALOT of the flair and it was way too much.

Here is the pic of Art holding the hero helmet at his hip, just cropped. (Art, i feel this pic will help the discussion, but if you want it removed, please do so, or i will remove it if you want)


As you can see he is holding it pretty straight forward, as exhibited by the brow going straight across. Albiet, it does look to a slightly above shot because he is holding the helmet at his hip, not directly in front of the camera. In the pics above in the dining room scene, the brow seems to have a slight arch, as if the helmet is slightly tilted chin up.

it also appears to me in some shots that the flair is more present on the RF side. and that side of the helmet tends to pull down form the extra weight of the RF and such..tilting the helmet like in the "between shots" phot and making the flair appear more on the opposite side.

Man, im starting to confuse myself!

We need one of those fancy 360* shots that let you tilt the screen and rotate the view!
Can someone crop the Art pic and compare it with some available lids that could have the angle manipulated to match the above shot? Time permitting of course.

That was a good write up on the infamous flare, and make total sense. I like the Empire flare, even as optical illusion like as it is, ever time I take a photo of my bucket it's straight sides make me a little glum (still to Paint)... However with the ears on I do find it has that better angle i like.
I do find it's hard to tell in the pic above, if the right side has more flare of not as i find the range finder's visual weight adds to the distortion as well, not unlike all those optical illusion test they plaster over FB:rolleyes

Very good points Lou.......

I'm going to wade in with a paste of my comments from the other thread:

I currently maintain that I don't see significant or additional extra flare on the ESB. I'm not saying there's none but I am saying that lots of extra manipulation is not requied. I've seen both the ESB and ROTJ helmets in person (admittedly a long time ago and admittedly before the specifics were of particular interest to me) but I didn't notice a wow factor that made them markedly different. Currently I fall into the viewpoint that whilst the ESB does exhibit flare the classic view that there is a lot more of it is not correct. I'm interested by the pictures that Lou has posted there supporting his argument. In the first dining room shot with Vader in the foreground the flare is most pronounced but in that shot there is a clear curve of the brow in that the section of it by the arrows is clearly higher than the ears presenting a curve. In the second shot the downward curve is less pronounced and the flare is reduced. Essentially both shots give us a chin up view of the helmet. By bringing the chin up you bring the extremeties of the edges by the ears closer to the camera which makes the helmet look wider. This is the something I learned creating force perspective drawings at art school (I was a dropout if it matters).

I've previously cited the picture of Art holding the ESB hero on his right hip as a good example of the ESB hero not exhibitting particular flare. In order to get all of Art's upper boby in the shot there would need to be a reasonable amount of distance (particularly in that shot the brow by the cente arrows is closer to straight but lower than the ear sections thereby reducing flare i.e an upward curve toward the ears). If there was unreasonable distortion of the helmet due to the photography then Art should also look distorted. I've not met Art but based on that shot compared to other pictures I've seen of him he looks pretty normal to me in that shot; someone else will need to chime in to tell me if that's a distorted view of Art but either way it would be difficult to take that shot at any less than seven feet.

Moving on from that... If you look into the Alinger book (if you don't own it I recommend it and feel it's really worth the money if only for the brief Fett section alone) then we can see a comparison of several production helmets together. From memory it's the gatefold on page 133 and we have (again from memory): Sandy, Rubber stunt, ESB Hero, PP3, and another rubber stunt. The interesting thing about this shot is that regardless of the other helmets in shot we have the PP3 and ESB hero side by side in one shot at the same focal distance. They're almost straight on with the brow being nearly a straight line albeit with the centre brow down (decreasing flare) but irrespective of that the ESB does not exhibit particular abounds of extra flare and that which there is is quite minimal in terms of direct comparison to the PP3 meaning they look pretty much the same over shape albeit with some differences. Actually dent placement is as interesting a conversation when it comes to that. I digress... I don't see the evidence of the ESB flare some do.

I had also wondered if the apparentyl unique FG fabric construction of the ESB might have contributed to the differences. I certainly think it might be why it has become damaged like it has; that and the rigours of filming and tours.

If you don't own an Alinger book, which is a worthy investment in my opinion regardless of this thread, then a google image search of 'Alinger fett' will give you a reasonable albeit distorted view of the page i'm referring to.

I think the ESB has a little more flare than the other versions. Not much but a little. Who knows why but it could be anything from being not fully cured when pulled from the mold or from the way the visor is installed pushing the sides out which may also account for some of the cracking we are seeing over time.

When I look at the visor on the ESB I see a slite difference in the vertical visor opening from top to bottom with the bottom being slightly wider. However it can trick the eye because the bottom of the acrylic or whatever they used is curved outward slightly. This helps make up the difference while still looking straight at a lot of angles.

I hope that makes sense. I don't have access to photoshop right now to illustrate what I mean. Also, it could just be my crazy ideas.

Thanks Rob!

Keep in mind folks this is just my opinion and is in no way definitive.

intwenothor said:

I've previously cited the picture of Art holding the ESB hero on his right hip as a good example of the ESB hero not exhibitting particular flare. In order to get all of Art's upper boby in the shot there would need to be a reasonable amount of distance (particularly in that shot the brow by the cente arrows is closer to straight but lower than the ear sections thereby reducing flare i.e an upward curve toward the ears). If there was unreasonable distortion of the helmet due to the photography then Art should also look distorted. I've not met Art but based on that shot compared to other pictures I've seen of him he looks pretty normal to me in that shot; someone else will need to chime in to tell me if that's a distorted view of Art but either way it would be difficult to take that shot at any less than seven feet.

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@intwenothor / Andy... very true, but notice the pic where Art is holding the helmet is taken from slightly above the helmet, as it is at his hip, (you can tell by how much of the dome you see above the dent as opposed to the screen shots) which would cause the opposite effect that you mentioned and thus reducing the flare.

That said here are a few more images to feed off of..



In this photo, the flare looks less prominent:


Here is a behind the scenes shot of what looks like a not yet painted ESB, but not really sure where in the timeline this is. It does have the dent though. There are also some on the ledge in the background


Heres a closer rotated shot of the one he is holding


Here is a heilmann photo of the screen used ROTJ helmet


ok...discuss! lol

FettFanatic said:

I think the ESB has a little more flare than the other versions. Not much but a little. Who knows why but it could be anything from being not fully cured when pulled from the mold or from the way the visor is installed pushing the sides out which may also account for some of the cracking we are seeing over time.

When I look at the visor on the ESB I see a slite difference in the vertical visor opening from top to bottom with the bottom being slightly wider. However it can trick the eye because the bottom of the acrylic or whatever they used is curved outward slightly. This helps make up the difference while still looking straight at a lot of angles.

I hope that makes sense. I don't have access to photoshop right now to illustrate what I mean. Also, it could just be my crazy ideas.

Click to expand...

the visor installation/cut is definitely something that could give it that look. Like you said, if the visor area is pushed outward toward the bottom ever so slightly it would in fact add flare. Didnt think of that, but there you go, another theory!

Seeing as we're getting our hands dirty here can we drag wavy brow into the mix? It's been a long time since we've had a good debate over that too so that should keep it interesting.

FettFanatic said:

I think the ESB has a little more flare than the other versions. Not much but a little. Who knows why but it could be anything from being not fully cured when pulled from the mold or from the way the visor is installed pushing the sides out which may also account for some of the cracking we are seeing over time.

When I look at the visor on the ESB I see a slite difference in the vertical visor opening from top to bottom with the bottom being slightly wider. However it can trick the eye because the bottom of the acrylic or whatever they used is curved outward slightly. This helps make up the difference while still looking straight at a lot of angles.

I hope that makes sense. I don't have access to photoshop right now to illustrate what I mean. Also, it could just be my crazy ideas.

Click to expand...

Could be? The visor is slightly wider at the bottom. Maybe that would be enough to push it out ever so slightly to give the flared look, especially when viewed from slightly chin up.


Do most of you fellows keep the visor wider at the bottom?

I don't think a small amount of extra visor width at the bottom would push the actual sides of the helmet out. FG is pretty infelxible even when it's thin.

The photo of him working on the lid definitely exudes ESB, but guess it could be the angle. At that angle it's difficult to assess the narrow brow on the LH side. That would have at least made it seem more certain if it was or not.
The pinched brow looks correct looking at the EFX compared to the Art shot with the lid, just for comparison, just wish I could tell here.

syllander said:

The photo of him working on the lid definitely exudes ESB, but guess it could be the angle.

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It could be. It certainly isn't the PP2 or Eyes helmet.

All I can think about is this..................