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Where did things go wrong?

  1. #1
    Cruzer's Avatar
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    Where did things go wrong?

    Please, this is not a thread to bash thksdad, but instead a thread to question and discuss if a more positive outcome was possible, or if the right path was taken by myself as well as everyone else involved. As much as I didn't like seeing him falsly taking credit on his website for other members hard earned props which included one of mine...I can't help but feel if somewhere along the course of the whole incident more could have been done to keep another person from being banned. I'm not taking his side at all. I just wish there could have been a more positive resolution to this incident. I try to keep in mind he was still a young man and therefore maybe not as knowledgeable about propmaking ethics. He helped out a few members here by offering some pretty nice and affordable Jango girthbelts, he was constructing a very cool display piece, and he'd been around since 2004. However, there is just something I can't figure out that bothers me whenever I think of the whole incident and the loss of his contributions to these boards.

    Again, I am not taking sides and this is not a bash thread. Instead, it's a thread to discuss if I/we do the right thing when it comes to certain people whose actions are put into question, and is there ever a point at which a person can be accepted back into the community.

    -Lorenzo

  2. #2

    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    While I don't know exactly what happened with his banning, it did surprise me. When I saw that he had been banned, I couldn't help but remember "Hey wait, didn't this guy have a lot of positive interaction with the community?". I always envisioned something like this as a simple problem, like somebody newly registered with no intention of giving to the community, trying to pass other people's work as their own, in which case, just ban them. But this guy was a very active member for years.

  3. #3
    mrgr8ness's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Passing on someone else's work as your own is a big no no, I'd say right up there close to recasting. That being said, I don't know the details of this situation. I saw that he was banned, was suprised about it, and do remember his contributions to the board, and great display he was putting together. It's hard to make a call here, without knowing all the details and evidence. I will say that even if one of our most respected and contributing members, was found recasting or passing on another TDH members work as there own, if the evidence was there and strong, it should be means for a ban.

  4. #4
    CombatBaby's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I don't know if lying about origins constitutes banning as much as lying about origins and selling.

    I don't know the details, but considering the circumstances it seems harsh.

    Yes, it does suck that someone would lie and say "i made this" when someone else did, but unless he was selling recasted copies etc. etc. then I don't see the need for the ban...especially for a long term member that has offered original props before and was helping more than hurting.

  5. #5
    Jango72's Avatar
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    Jun 2007
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    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I too was caught by surprise by his banning, even in light of the mention of pictures of other members props being shown whilst advertising that he'd be making those items available for sale to the general membership.

    I know that the board (and The Dent for that matter), doesn't take banning lightly or with out serious consideration. However... I'm still at a loss as to what all transpired/unfolded.

  6. #6
    never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Cincinnati, OH
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I'm pretty much going to echo what has been said. I don't know the full circumstances, happened to see that he had been banned and was shocked, especially when I saw the reason given. Then I did a search for his name because it was familiar and found his thread on his moding of his manaquin and alot of his other great contributions.

    I don't know if permaban is too harsh or not, maybe it is, but at the same time when do we make exceptions and when don't we. Was any kind of warning given? He's been around the block and should know better so was a warning necessary? I just don't know. I'd like to know more details but it really isn't any of my buisness either so why drag his name in the mud more by repeating the story. I'm torn.

  7. #7
    sithchick's Avatar
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    post Falls Idaho
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I too was shocked. did n't I read his posts? I was sure I had seemed to be an okay guy ( on that basis there are others I would rather ban) but I also notice a huge trend on people and institutions forgetting there is a such thing as forgiveness.

    I know the dent does not ban lightly but can't we all remember a time we were given a second chance OR would liked to have had a second chance. Those things make all the difference especially if he was contributing.

    also one question: If some one is bad enough to ban are all their posts and threads stricken???? wouldn't it be a slightly hypocritical group that bans someone yet keeps their advice or contributions for the whole of the community to benefit from? Just a question??

  8. #8
    I helped at SDCC '08 NovallTalon's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I'm not speaking on anyone's behalf other than my own and how we have had to deal with forum bannings at Mercs (which have been VERY VERY RARE).

    It's never an easy thing when it's someone who has been part of a community for a long time, especially if they are a contributor to said community. What ultimately factors in with a decision like this IMHO is the "Are they representing the community properly?" question. This probably weighs even more heavily on someone who is a great contributor, because these are the people that stand out as the image you want your community to be known for. When a slip up happens, then it has a much wider effect then if Joe Shmoe does because of they're status in the community.

    The "taking sides" problem is the next big issue when it's a long-time/outstanding community issue. No matter what goes on in the background with a banning be it communications with the offender, communications with the community, communications within the admin group...someone is going to be left with a sour taste in their mouths.

    At the end of the day as members of TDH, what we need to be asking ourselves is this: How long was this going on? Didn't he know TDH's rules? and Did he think he would never be caught? The last question alone should feel a little insulting to the collective intelligence.

    I know this decision probably wasn't a light one, and we who weren't part of it directly will never know what all went out behind the scenes to lead up to it. All that can be done is take lessons from it and apply them to ourselves and how we want to represent this community.

  9. #9
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Las Vegas, NV
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    While we generally don't like to discuss such things openly, this is a rather unique case and seince it has been brought up, I do not want you to be in the dark surrounding the reasons for thksdad's ban.

    Before I go into details, I want it to be known, that TDH has lost a brother and a respected member. Thksdad was a valuable asset to this community and his presence and contributions will be missed. I truly regret that the ban was necessary and hated having to ban him. Even though a ban was necessary, we hold no ill will toward thksdad and do not consider him a bad person. We simply came to a place in which his beliefs and values no longer were congruent with those of this board. We wish him the best of luck in his future endeavors.

    With that being said, as has already been pointed out, thksdad has been a member of this community for years. Our stance on recasting is fairly well known. Some agree with it, some don't but whether you agree with it or not, while you are here you must respect it. The details surrounding thksdad's website are still not crystal clear, and just for the record, that is not what got him bannned. We were actually working with him and trying to reach a resolution in regard to the issues our members had with the pieces thksdad was offering. I thought we were making progress. However, we were being told one thing, while thksdad was telling others something else and blatantly threatening to recast their pieces. With this attitude of revenge and a clear disregard for the rules of this community, thksdad banned himself. Additionally, he seemed to know the ban was coming and was more concerned about things people on this board owed him and how he would stay in contact with them than he ws concerned about resolving the problems that were leading up to his ban.

    Is our brother lost forever? Not necessarily. I can think of four very clear occasions were members stepped far over the line and were immediately banned with no intentions of ever readmitting them. However, all four of those members are here today and one is a very active member who contributes a great deal to this community. We are not above forgiveness, but we can not stand idly by and allow people to take advantage of our members hard work.

    In answer to Cruzer's initial question: could this have been handled better? Without a doubt, it could have been handled a lot better on all sides. However, no matter how delicate one tries to approach such situations, they are bound to be difficult because it inevitably becomes a he said, she said ordeal. The back and forth can only go on for so long before a decision must be rendered. In this case it never quite reached that point as thksdad more or less made the decision for us. I am not sure at this moment the conditions that would be required for his reinstatement and there is a good possibility that he is no longer interested in being a member, but I would like to think that some day he will again be a respected and positively contributing member to this community.

    D

  10. #10
    I helped at SDCC '08 MandalorFett's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Thanks Dent for being very open.

  11. #11
    Jango72's Avatar
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    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Thanks for that explanaition Dent, I had my fears that it was some thing along those lines.

    I'm never one to hold a grudge, or off-handedly judge an individual on single actions. So I figured that there was far more at play, that lead to the banning. It is always sad to see a member go, whether a long time or new member and it's been dishartening to note an on-going trend on many of the forums I frequent to disregard the copyrights and wishes of prop makers. We all have our different opinions, but as community we should respect the wishes and well being of others... even in spite of our personal feelings and beliefs.

    I hope that some day thksdad will return, once again to add his contributions to this wonderful community. Until then, I will quietly sit and contemplate these issues with the high hopes that we have seen the last of this type of situation.

  12. #12
    Cruzer's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Makes a lot of sense. Forgiveness is always a good thing after the wrong has been made right.

  13. #13
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    sithchick said: View Post
    If some one is bad enough to ban are all their posts and threads stricken???? wouldn't it be a slightly hypocritical group that bans someone yet keeps their advice or contributions for the whole of the community to benefit from? Just a question??
    sithchick,

    This is a very valid question. We could delete all the posts of any banned member but do not do so for a number of reasons;

    1) While a member may no longer be allowed on the board due to their actions, it doesn't invalidate their previous contributions. Thksdad has offered a good deal to this community and has left an overall positive legacy here. Why would we destroy that?

    2) We generally ban people in an effort to protect our members. Our job as the administration is to serve the membership. Would deleting useful posts be in line with our belief that we are here to serve the membership?

    3) If we deleted the posts of every banned member we would be encouraging the attitude of "I will just take my ball and go home." We think that is a very immature approach so if a member leaves, the ball stays here. Some may not agree with this approach but again our main goal is to look out for the good of the community.

    4) Banned members do not always stay banned. Can't think of anything worse than a member being reinstated only to find out that all his previous posts are gone.

    5) While this is a minor and more technical point, there is not easy to delete posts in numerous threads in mass, especially for a member with a large number of posts. There is no magic button (that I am aware of) that will simply remove all the posts of member X.

    --------

    It seems that many who have posted in this thread are under the false assumption that we ban members. While we handle the technical end, we do not ban members. They ban themselves through their own actions. We just do the paperwork.

    Finally, it seems that some feel that a members benefits should be weighed against their misdeeds. Wrong. No matter what your contributions to this community, no matter how great your service, none of us are exempt from the rules. Period. This is not a scale of goood vs evil. When you are caught speeding does the police officer take into consideration how many miles you drove at or under the speed limit vs over the speed limit? No. If we began to determine things in such a manner, anarchy would be the end result because members in good standing or who have contributed positively would feel entitled to do whatever they chose because their positive contributions would cover their misdeeds. That mentality will never fly here.

  14. #14
    Rupidupe's Avatar
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    May 2008
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    Wisconsin
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Well I am fairly new and couldn't tell from his website that the helmet kit he was showing was a BKBT or that the other pics were members items. I will say that when I ordered a helmet from him and this situation arose he refunded my money and said that he wasn't going to make anything until all of this was resolved. He may have done some things that were unethical in terms of pics but he did the right thing it seems by refusing work while his name was in question.

    I just hope that this can be resolved and that perhaps the MODS can mediate here with all parties involved and work this out. I know that those of us seeking quality costuming parts sure do hate being caught up in the middle of something like this.

    Maybe I'm looking at this too lightly, but after 10 years in the military I have seen enough to keep a lighter perspective on most non life threatening issues.

    With Respect,

    Rup

  15. #15

    Member Since
    Mar 2008
    From
    Limerick, Ireland
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    261

    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Thank you for being so open with regards to your thought process on this Dent... this is the first Ive seen of this situation and as a new member I respect and admire the integrity of such decisions - they must be difficult none the less...

    I come from a music forum mainly and bans are always a sad thing to see. Perhaps more so here where we are such a tight knit community - I hope that this can end well for all parties involved and while I dont feel in a position to take sides - your explanation reaffirms to me that the decision I made to come here still is the correct one.

    Thank you!

    Finally, Im having a little trouble with parts from a US seller that have been delayed by the postman/stolen/gone missing. The member INSTANTLY offered to send replacement parts as soon as I communicated the situation! This is a FANTASTIC place, with such wonderful members...

    So again - thank you!
    Dave

  16. #16

    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I support the Dent 100%

    I contacted thksdad by email after I was made aware of this by a fellow member for which I'm grateful. I never got a chance to see into his website nor the photo of my Arena Jet Pack he supposedly had posted. His response to me was simply that my source was in question !? The next day I receive an email from him stating he'd removed the photo of my Arena Jet Pack !?

    Though I'm grateful he purchased and Arena Kit from me in September and I value him as a customer...I don't think I'll be selling anything to him in the future.

    Christian

  17. #17
    Foxbatkllr's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Here are a couple of screencaps I took of his website. Notice the "painting services available" comment on the chest armor page and nowhere does he mention that these are the only ones available. Combine that with reports from members that they "ordered" helmets from him. Then he basically admitted as much...

    I think its pretty clear he brought this on himself. I don't think the situation could have been handled any better way. He refused to work things out in private, then backpedaled.




  18. #18
    sithchick's Avatar
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    post Falls Idaho
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Thanks Dent. Question well ( and impartially) answered

  19. #19

    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Foxbatkllr said: View Post
    Here are a couple of screencaps I took of his website. Notice the "painting services available" comment on the chest armor page and nowhere does he mention that these are the only ones available. Combine that with reports from members that they "ordered" helmets from him. Then he basically admitted as much...

    I think its pretty clear he brought this on himself. I don't think the situation could have been handled any better way. He refused to work things out in private, then backpedaled.




    What tha frig! That's my jet pack for sure..no question!

  20. #20

    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    After reading my post I decided to delete it. It didn't add anything postive to the dicussion.

    I also feel that if someone who crosses the line comes forward, takes accountabiity & is geniunely apologetic then they should be allowed back in the folds. We all make mistakes, the trick is to learn from them & grow. I wouldn't harbour any hard feelings if wrongs were made right.
    Last edited by bigkidbiggertoys; Oct 8, 2008 at 10:17 PM.

  21. #21
    tubachris85x's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Wow, yea, I just went through his site. Im very upset about this..

  22. #22
    Cruzer's Avatar
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    Porterville, California
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Rup, thank for that inside info. Very good to know.

    Let's please keep this positive so we can discuss how best to respond to these situations when they arrise within the TDH family.

    Thanks, Dent, for your invaluable insight!

    Thanks for your replies everyone,
    Lorenzo
    Last edited by Cruzer; Oct 8, 2008 at 11:28 PM.

  23. #23
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I understand that people are upset and some feel betrayed, but what Cruzer has asked, I am stating; do not turn this into a bash thread. Two wrongs don't make a right so maintain a respectful tone, even when speaking of a previous member. Disagreeing is one thing and understandable. Beating someone when they are down is another. We all know what has happened here. There is no need to belabor the point. If we see this thread continue to deteriorate we will lock it.

  24. #24

    Member Since
    Aug 2008
    From
    Ohio
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    1

    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    I'm fairly new here, but have read a lot. I might be wrong but are you even alowd to post pictures of his site? Wouldn't it break certain copyright laws he may have on that website? I don't know if its a big deal but I was just wondering.

  25. #25
    Satxer's Avatar
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    Near Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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    Re: Where did things go wrong?

    Sam_Wesell said: View Post
    I'm fairly new here, but have read a lot. I might be wrong but are you even alowd to post pictures of his site? Wouldn't it break certain copyright laws he may have on that website? I don't know if its a big deal but I was just wondering.
    Well, the issue is, that it was meant for reference to who had not seen his site to know if he had been using stuff that wasn't his. As you see above, MOW had spotted that it was his jet pack on that site. But the site got taken down before he could spot it. It gets technical, if they are still up, I suppose that there isn't a problem because I would be sure that The Dent would take them down.

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