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Recasting and why it is not acceptable

  1. #1
    I helped at SDCC '08 987654321a's Avatar
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    Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Yes, we all know why recasting is not cool with any prop making community. This is just to tell every potential recaster why it is not accepted and wrong. So please do not bash any recaster here, as I do not want to start any arguements or just the general flaming of someone that has re-casted a prop. I also beg that you do not bring up any past confrontation with a recaster.

    First and foremost, We WILL find out you have recasted an item. It may take a day, or a month. The members here and elsewhere have researched the specific props, be it Star Wars, Star Trek, or Telletubbys, it does not matter. The propmakers have worked on these props, whether they are simple shin tools, or helmet, for hours on end, upwards of 50 hours or more.

    Now there are two situations in which one in recasting is semi-ok, and the other is absolutely not tolerated.

    Let's say I buy a Bobamaker helmet, which I did a few months ago.

    So anyways, lets say I bought that helmet and it has just arrived. All that is in my mind is to recast this to have a few copys for myself, and myself only! If I do not share it with you guys, by means of pictures and/or videos, then you will not know that I am recasting this. It is behind closed doors and nobody will know. Now here is the tricky part. While nobody is watching me 24/7, It is semi wrong, it is considered fraud. Now, the propmaking community there is no government, to regulate who does what and punish those that break the law. There are only moderators and Admin to ban and suspend accounts. This is just like making counterfeit money, it is against the law. We do not have laws here that are regulated by the president of propmaking country. Recasting in its own is against prop making ethics. And you will have a bad image from time to time. You can be an honest person in real life but your online image will forever be tarnished. Word will spread and whenever 987654321a is brought up, they are going to say that "he was accused of recasting a Bobamaker, or FettPride"

    Now I have no means of re-casting my Bobamaker for any reason. If I want another Bobamaker, I will just wait my 15 weeks and buy another one from him. Not recast a work of art that he hand sculpted.




    Now here is the dark side of recasting. The recasting and SELLING of a certain propmakers work. This is considered fraud as well. Your work will be considered fraudulent and you will never be trusted anymore, even if you ship it overnight for free. Everybody I know, absolutely despises recasting of a propmakers work. If you sculpt your own helmet, gauntlet, tricorder, and mold and sell copys of it, then you will be far more respected. Counterfeit money again, if you make it and keep it to yourself, you might never be caught, but if you decide to use it, then at one point you will be caught.

    Just a few words on recasting.

  2. #2
    sithchick's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    what about casting a helmet that is discontinued production like the DP 95

    or taking a hemlet that is discontinued and modifying it in some ways to make it a better product or slightly different look.

    I have heard that if you change several things about a work of art it is no longer considered the origional artists work but a totally new work??

  3. #3
    I helped at SDCC '08 987654321a's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Well Here is the only exception for recasting. And that is, recasting YOUR OWN work. The DP 95, was made by Don Post, not 98765431a or Joe Blow. And with that, it is even against the law, seeing that the helmet is copyrighted, and that don post was allowed to make replica SW helmets.

    Remember this though. Recasting for yourself and your personal use, and not for sale, is still looked badly at, but nobody will know about it as long as you do not show it to anyone on forums, or cons.

    Recasting and selling a modified DP 95, is still debatable and I will not get into that. It would still be a DP 95 as a base, no matter how many mods you make to it. You are profiting off of a product that you dont even have the rights to.

  4. #4

    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable


    Thanx to Svoor for this GIF

  5. #5

    Member Since
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    from wot I have garnered - there are different levels/types of recasting.

    in a way - lots of "cast from original" is in actual fact a recast or the original film prop. Even if its and original fan-made prop; its unlicenced and based on idea/concept of someone elses work. all prop makers on forums such as these thread a fine line; as we are all more or less on the wrong side of copyright law anyways.

    already mentioned is "black" recasting - ie taking someone elses work and recasting w/o permission and selling it as if it were ur own work and for your own profit. Generally a big no no

    now there recasting with permission, or so called "white recasting" - you have spoken to the original maker and have got permission (or even his molds) to cast his work. Generally accepted as ok

    recasting a discontinued item - like the aforementioned DP95 or the MR ROTC lid. This seems to be generally accepted as ok; although legally again on dodgy ground I think. Although that is a personal opinion.

    gettin an original fan-made item and re-working - there seems to be an arbitary level set - that if u have taken an original fan-made item and modified it so heavily (number bounded abt is 75%) that it no longer is quite like its original; so much so you can call it ur own, is then not called a recast. a fine example is the work done by SGB on various clone variations based of OSCS (I think) lids.

    I agree that even "recasting for personal use" is more than a little bit naughty.

    In general - most makers I have spoken to often say that the amount made from sellin their wares is not very much, and is mostly used to re-coup materials, equipment cost and their own blood and sweat.

    Recasting as a concept is NOT well accepted in a prop making/costuming community. Enforcement, however, is very difficult. Its a stand that each individual has to make I feel in the end. Wot really is irritating - is that most "professional recasters" take other peoples work, claim it as their own, make poorer quality product and manage to sell it for a higher profit.

    I cant speak for makers - but I can imagine the frustration on their part.

    As a buyer - I would say; the onus is on urself to show respect to artiste who do put in the time, work and skill to provide us as a community these well made and very often reasonably priced (not to be read as cheap) items.

    You will never be able to stop recasting, but the responsibility is upon us as part of the costuming/prop community to make sure we police ourselves and not to accept it. I would say the majority of us may have bought recast stuff before, sites like TDH, FISD, CE, MMCC have helped educate and inform loads of people - that in itself a big way to avoid the probelm with recasters.

    I now ensure to avoid black recasts at all costs. Bite me once - shame on you, bite me twice - shame on me!

    just my 2 cents.

    Nate

  6. #6

    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    987654321a said: View Post
    Yes, we all know why recasting is not cool with any prop making community. This is just to tell every potential recaster why it is not accepted and wrong. So please do not bash any recaster here, as I do not want to start any arguements or just the general flaming of someone that has re-casted a prop. I also beg that you do not bring up any past confrontation with a recaster.

    First and foremost, We WILL
    I understand the intent behind this thread was good, but do we really need another recasting discussion?

    Also, are you encouraging discussion from other members of the community on this topic? On whose behalf are you speaking? Your wording sounds pretty final, like we've already all agreed with your points.

    Lastly, The Dented Helmet's administration has outlined their official stance on recasting in the Code of Conduct.

  7. #7

    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Count Dookie said: View Post
    I understand the intent behind this thread was good, but do we really need another recasting discussion?Lastly, The Dented Helmet's administration has outlined their official stance on recasting in the Code of Conduct.

    THANK YOU CD:thumbup...What he said.

  8. #8
    BobaFettSlave_1's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    that GIF made my day

  9. #9

    Member Since
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    whoops loadsa posts since I wrote my answer.

    soz didnt mean to drag out wot sounds like an oft discussed and debated subject by many old-bies here

    my response was really to post 1 and 2 of the thread and tryin to desseminate wot I had picked up from surfing other similiar forums to these.

    apologies for newbie-ness

    Nate

  10. #10
    asok's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Just as FYI, here is our stand


    RECASTING

    Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community.

    If an accusation of recasting is made, the burden of proof falls solely on the accuser. It is not the responsibility of the accused to prove their innocence in any form. The Dented Helmet chooses to believe our members are innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until they can provide proof of their innocence. It is not the job of the administration to determine if an individual has recast, only their job to administer punishment if an accuser provides definitive proof of recasting.

    Please also read the following from the CoD

    RESPECT

    Treat others as you would like to be treated. Respect fellow members and their opinions. Respect must be extended to each and every member, the administrative staff included. Be polite and courteous to others and keep your messages in good taste.Disagreements are bound to happen. Approach them in a civil manner, with respect to the other person's point of view.Should you feel someone has crossed the line and is being disrespectful to you, contact a member of the administrative staff and allow them to handle the situation.If a member's family, gender, race, national origin, etc. is maliciously involved in an argument, the offending member will face an immediate ban. On a final note, respect for the opposite sex must be shown at all times.

  11. #11
    I helped at SDCC '08 987654321a's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Guys, I do not mean to start an arguement here, or have a debate. I was just stating this so that potential recasters would read and reconsider their actions. If Admins want to delete this, its fine. I am not speaking on behalf of anybody.

    Like I said, I do not want anybody to bring up any discussion of any recaster, whether the said recaster is your uncle or some guy in Guatemala.

    I am also not speaking on behalf of thksdad if that is who you guys are thinking , I am speaking on behalf of myself. Just getting my opinion out there. Not bashing recasting for personal use, but recasting illegally for a profit.
    Last edited by 987654321a; Oct 8, 2008 at 9:44 PM.

  12. #12
    sithchick's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Sorry all, being new I really thought my understanding of recasting came from my collage art and what constitutes a new trademarkable work ( since really EVERY work takes something from someone else's work. In art it's true you can look it up if you want to take the long boring art theory class).
    My understanding was more like Nate's understanding. I didn't mean to offend any1. As I am fairly new this is the first time I have run across anything different. Please keep in mind I have absolutelu 0 intentions of casting, building or recasting sorry I would just rather buy my parts.

  13. #13
    asok's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    I do not think that anybody is trying to be mean in any way. It is just that this topic can just make people a little nuts. We will not remove or lock the thread unless it gets out of hand. Just remember this, treat others the way you would like to be treated. It is will serve you will.

  14. #14

    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Heatshock said: View Post
    I agree that even "recasting for personal use" is more than a little bit naughty.
    I have to disagree with this. If I order a BM helmet, and decide to make more as to have a backup or 2 in case the first one breaks but don't have the extra three hundred some dollars and 15 weeks to wait, I don't see it as wrong, just preparation, Or perhaps I want different helmets with different paint styles (ROTJ/ESB) As long as I don't go out selling these items I don't see that I should be looked down upon for doing so just because someone happened to recognize it as a BM helmet as personally if I did such I'd admit to what it was and what I did. To me it's the selling of said items that makes the practice wrong.

    Heatshock said: View Post
    As a buyer - I would say; the onus is on yourself to show respect to artiste who do put in the time, work and skill to provide us as a community these well made and very often reasonably priced (not to be read as cheap) items
    Again this can work if said buyer is aware of what is occurring. Speaking from experience, most don't know they're buying recasts until it's too late and already done, am I supposed to throw away a perfectly good prop simply because it's a recast? The whole thing is based largely around simple ethics and knowledge. Most of us and myself included wouldn't think of doing this, BUT those that do obviously lack the former and prey upon those that lack the latter. Either way it's as you said, all creators are technically on the wrong side of copyright laws, so in the end the only ones to blame for recasters are ourselves, cause after all if we didn't break said laws then there wouldn't be any work to recast. Again just my opinion take it for what it's worth.

  15. #15
    Ronin677's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    mandosoldier said: View Post
    I have to disagree with this. If I order a BM helmet, and decide to make more as to have a backup or 2 in case the first one breaks but don't have the extra three hundred some dollars and 15 weeks to wait, I don't see it as wrong, just preparation, Or perhaps I want different helmets with different paint styles (ROTJ/ESB) As long as I don't go out selling these items I don't see that I should be looked down upon for doing so just because someone happened to recognize it as a BM helmet as personally if I did such I'd admit to what it was and what I did. To me it's the selling of said items that makes the practice wrong.
    Not sure about this one

    If i had spent months making a lid in order to sell copies of it to make myself some money (lets be honest here), and someone wanted 5 copies of MY helmet, then i would expect them to buy 5 copies of my helmet. I would be really jarred off with them spending $# and then copying it themselfs and doing me out of the money for the other copies.

    The people who makes these props to sell do so to make money. Whilst they do it so people can own these props they are also making money. Recasting is just stealing someone elses work. Plain and simple - black & white

    NO DISCUSSION

  16. #16
    Stormrider's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    The money spent to make a quality copy of something is not cost effective to make a 'backup for yourself'.

    Now, When my MR got destroyed, I fixed it the best I could with 30 lbs of bondo and epoxy clay (Actually filled it solid) and then cast it. The mandibles and ears are about the only piece that was recognizable. The entire back and head was destroyed then rebuilt. Slowly I might add.


    Had windless studios not BOUGHT the RIGHTS to the MR MOLDS I feel it would have been more of an open playground. But because someone is producing or is a company still with rights to something, its best to stear way clear of it.

    But lets look at the REAL deal here. This is all 'dodgy' and partially 'illegal' because its copyrighted. The reason that recasting is looked down upon, is because Lucas Arts could come down at any time and say 'stop'. And recasting 'current and marketable products' is the fastest way to get that kind of attention. Copying someone elses work, and putting out shabby or any other copies, is going to garner the wrong attention also.

    This community is lucky to be allowed to do what it does. So just play nicely in the playground. Thats all anyone asks.

  17. #17

    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    TDH has a clear policy on the topic... individual members have their own opinions, but the board has its rules and that's that

    This is just a bad road to go down. People will never agree. People will always argue. Maybe we should just let it die, pretend this thread never happened and move on...

  18. #18

    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    987654321a said: View Post
    . You are profiting off of a product that you dont even have the rights to.


    while I dont personally buy things that were (on purpose anyway, I know sometimes people lie about where they got things ;( ) nor attempt to recast myself..

    but I think the whole argument of that , doesnt work. none of us have the rights to Star Wars or any other work we prop. which is why when I make things I try to sell them at reasonable prices instead of insanely high prices. I think huge prices for things kills the community and in itself asks for recasting to happen. Granted, people who recast, will do just that, but when your stuff cost a grand + for something other people make for 200-300.00 people start to think there would be a market for it where they otherwise might have just bought one and been happy with it.

  19. #19
    Kivas's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    You know, this topic always drives me nuts - especially to see the duplicity considering what props are ok to recast what is is not.

  20. #20
    Ronin677's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    I know how much work and time goes into producing a lid and the molds, having done it myself and I would be really angry if someone decided to cast copies of it either for themselves or others.

    Its a smack in the face for the people who done all the hard work.

    You have to ask yourself how you would feel (and be truthful)

  21. #21

    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    The only thing I have to add to this thread is :

    1) RECASTED is NOT a word. The true form is recast for present, past, and future tense.

    2) recasting is NOT illegal. Copy right law is a whole other can o' worms


    The mindset of someone who buys something only to copy it, is MONEY. They are after a quick buck, and generally do not care about art, artists, or ethics. So it is very difficult to reason "right or wrong" with them.

  22. #22
    Boomer Fett's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    I pesent a small question as to the gray areas. I bought a resin helmet of unknown origins on eBay and I had to open a dispute to even get it. After I got it, the guy was blocked by eBay and I have zero idead where it even came from (somewhere in California by the post mark) This lid has no known maker or origin. No markings and no trademarks. The question is, What would it take to make it allowable to make a casting of this item to appease the Thread Gods??? I have no intentions of doing this but I pose the question to continue a informativ discussion. Thanks folks.

  23. #23
    Ronin677's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    Boomer Fett said: View Post
    I pesent a small question as to the gray areas. I bought a resin helmet of unknown origins on eBay and I had to open a dispute to even get it. After I got it, the guy was blocked by eBay and I have zero idead where it even came from (somewhere in California by the post mark) This lid has no known maker or origin. No markings and no trademarks. The question is, What would it take to make it allowable to make a casting of this item to appease the Thread Gods??? I have no intentions of doing this but I pose the question to continue a informativ discussion. Thanks folks.

    In this case, there is no clear audit trail back to origin, and if it means a lot of work to make this item good, then cast it. In this instance it is not RECAST , only cast

    secondly recasting may not be illegal but it is immoral.

  24. #24
    Boomer Fett's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    "lot of work"...I bought it in May and I almost have it cleaned up enough for painting...almost...


    Ronin677 said: View Post
    In this case, there is no clear audit trail back to origin, and if it means a lot of work to make this item good, then cast it. In this instance it is not RECAST , only cast

    secondly recasting may not be illegal but it is immoral.

  25. #25
    CombatBaby's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting and why it is not acceptable

    slave1pilot said: View Post

    Thanx to Svoor for this GIF
    right on

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