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Recasting discussion

  1. #51
    Ordo Te'skot's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Bottom line bro, to me, is do you want to be able to participate in the costuming hobby, or not? If you have such a problem with replicas, then well, there's the proverbial door.

    I for one want to be able to complete my custom armor and wear it. That's not going to happen if I *only* buy "official licensed replicas". They don't make half of what I want. And they darn sure don't do it in custom.

    I have alot of respect for the artists here. I may never buy an MSH2 helm, or an HS helm, or one of 99centtaco's nifty belts(just to name a few things). But I appreciate their contributions, and every other artisan's contributions here. It would be a sad day indeed if the only things we were allowed to do was to buy strictly MR stuff and modify it to suit our custom concepts. I'd have to wear BDU's and an MR helm, and that's about it, mate.

    So, like I said... if you have such a problem with the idea, you know where the virtual door is. Just my 2 credits.

  2. #52
    Tim Allen's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Recasting is wrong not matter what but the way I look at it is, were all very lucky to be even doing this at all. If LFL wanted too they could slam the hammer down on us and that would be the end of that.

    I personally havnt had any of my stuff recasted that i know of but eventually when I release my Gladiator helmet/armor I wont be suprised if it does. Ive spent at least a years on the helmet and another half on the armor and to tell you tell you that I wouldnt get upset if it gets recasted would be a lie, but it is what it is. Did I create the armor and helmet design??..... No, so techincally I have no rights to sell it than the recaster. Just because someone "purchased" molds from another doesnt give any right either. So all in all no one here really has any right to create,copy and sell any of this but luckly LFL turns the other way.

    Either way recasting isnt going to stop, but I figured instead of depriving the market and only selling to "certain people" like the TE stormtrooper incident some years back, try flooding the market and let your name be known so people know where to come and get a good transaction from the real deal. IMO part of the reason stuff gets recasted is its not avaliable in quantity and in turn people will see $ signs and sooner or later those few avaliable items will end up in the wrong hands and be casted up.
    Last edited by Tim Allen; Jun 6, 2007 at 6:07 AM.

  3. #53
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    oh dont get me wrong, i am not signaling out anyone one person here or current situation. i could care less. not my work being copied. i just want to understand. thanks for responding.

    ok, so you just clarify what recasting is outside the dented helmet forum, then recasting a tdh members work is not supported by the community. hmm. i understand now. its frowned upon but if a member recasts its up to the community not to support. no secret police or flogging. i must be tired.

    and the mr paragragh. i wasnt being literal, the statement is what i have heard through many forums. i ment it as the cohesive consious of the people. they blame mr to justify recasting their helmet to make a profit.

    ok, i have read your replies, i am cool with it. your forum, your rules. i am prior military. i am used to ONLY black or white, not gray. gray area is when if you get away with it, great, count your blessings, if you are caught, a courtmartial/trial will proove you wrong. like i said, i just wanted clarification.


    i like this one-----

    "As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work."

    so since it doesnt affect the person directly (hence a company made up of thousands) its ok to rip them off? so if there was a mr rep on this board like the rpf, then would that apply nik nak aka?
    Hippo Clone,

    It seems that your frustration lies in the fact that most people are willing to bend the rules or have flexible morals when it comes to this topic because without it, they would not be able to get a great deal of what they have and in truth, this hobby would not exist. We exist at the leniency of LFL. At any point they could shut us down for copyright violation, but they choose not to. Some have taken this slight freedom and used it to make a living. Others have used it to make their own costumes. At the end of the day, this entire hobby is in violation of LFL's copyright. With that in mind, TDH decided quite some time ago that on some issues we were not going to be the police of each person's morals. We tried a black and white approach to recasting but continually ran into grey areas and continually found that are decisions felt more and more hypocritical. We finally decided that given the fact this hobby as a whole is an infringement on LFL's copyright, we will let the members decide for themselves whether they want to support recasting or not. The reason that we make note of it being frowned upon to recast another member's creation is that we feel we have some level of obligation to protect our members.

    If you were hoping for someone to give you an explanation that would somehow justify people's actions, you won't get it because it can't be justified. This hobby exists at the fringe of legality and fortunately, LFL is more interested in having us around to promote their movies and merchandise than enforcing their copyright. The danger to such a leniency is that over time people begin to incorrectly assume an entitlement mantality and begin to believe they have a "right" to do the things they are doing. The lack of reprisal emboldens them and they begin to act in ways that they should not. We would all do well to remember that we exist only at LFL's graciousness and that leniency could be stripped away at any time.

  4. #54
    eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    FP,
    I never called you a recaster, my issue was always over your reaction to a joke, a very tactless joke from a German, who obviously has different cultural view than you when it come to humor. I don't wish to justify his remarks, but I thought it was abundantly clear that it was simply a very dumb joke.

    I don't have an issue with the molds and cast in your case, so please understand that. That was the first person, then the second person chimed in with a very inappropriate post. I strongly disagreed with his post about 'recasting because you are a recaster'. Again, I never claimed to see you as a recaster. Then that poster was attacked, not his post, but the poster himself. Ad hominem. That was the second issue I have, even if it's the same as the first. The difference was in the first case you started the assault against the poster and in the second spidey took lead. You had set that example and he happily followed. I know that I would have had no problem with the whole thing if you and spidey had addressed the issues within the posts without attacking the posters themselves, I would have supported you 100%. I would be happy to expound on that if I haven't made my point clear enough.

    -x
    Last edited by eighteendelta; Jun 6, 2007 at 7:13 AM.

  5. #55
    evan4218's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Rogue Studios said: View Post
    This is one reason Myself and others steer caution on letting stuff out.
    This is indeed a good example and one of the big reasons why only a very select few got a copy of your plug and why no more will ever see the light of day. Such a shame. But to a degree you must let go of said piece for the greater good meaning sharing it with other costumers. Much as you did with the ears.

    fettpride said: View Post
    Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?
    This is a good point and one that I highlighted in my first post and my post in your cargo hold thread. Folks are so quick to cut hairs on the recasting topic when it comes to alot of the artists on this board but are often the first with there hands out as soon as a run starts on armor or a helmet they want.

    ______

    I think I got a glimpse of a less civil version of this thread starting up in FPs thread and I wanted it moved over here, aired out, and wanted to see where it would truly go. Dead horse or not, there still seem to be lots of members who are a bit fuzzy on the boards stance on recasting.

    The bottom line in my opinion is that we should be thankful that folks like FP, and RS and others use there skills and knolage on this costume and create some of what they create, remaster what they have remasted and offered us up copys of there end result regardless of how it came to be. (I am just naming these too folks because they are commenting in this thread) Try making a prop from scratch and you will see what a large amount of effort, time and money goes into it. Even a hevy mod on a current one is no walk in the park. At the end of the day my, and many others costumes would not be possible with out what the prop makers on this site do. But keep in mind that very few of the things you know and love on your costume came to be out of a hunk of clay, they started from moded DP deluxes, measurements off screen used peices and other such things.

    I think some folks seem to think that is recasting in the common sense of the word but in my eyes its just the art that created the pieces we have on our costume, be it clay, gypsum, metal, modded older sculpts, 3rd gen casts of mystery helmets... ect ect.

    Just my 2 cents

  6. #56

    Re: Recasting discussion

    eighteendelta said: View Post
    Again, I never claimed to see you as a recaster. Then that poster was attacked, not his post, but the poster himself. Ad hominem. That was the second issue I have, even if it's the same as the first. The difference was in the first case you started the assault against the poster and in the second spidey took lead. You had set that example and he happily followed. I know that I would have had no problem with the whole thing if you and spidey had addressed the issues within the posts without attacking the posters themselves, I would have supported you 100%. I would be happy to expound on that if I haven't made my point clear enough.
    -x
    Dude, ...for the sake of this thread, because it's a good thread with a good debate that EVAN4218 started, and I don't want to see it go down..and since you don't want to continue this in PM where this kinda thing belongs....I would suggest you keep what happened on the Jango FP thread in the Cargo hold were it belongs, over there.... And not try to derail this one....which seems to be your intent.....THIS THREAD IS ABOUT RECASTING, NOT ABOUT YOU GETTING YOUR FEELINGS HURT ON ANOTHER THREAD.

    And Trust me, even if FP had never posted anything in that thread I still would've called out a Stupid or Inappropriate comment from any member......again you haven't been around here long enough to know I definitely don't need anyones help when I call people out......

    Hey, didn't you say you were done with this anyway, something about your "blood pressure"??

    Oh and Good luck with your Trash Can Armor and your scratch built Fett, cause it looks like that's all you'll be getting your hands on....since you've shot yourself in the foot in less than 24 hours on this board...real good move bro.

    ** I do want to apologize to EVAN4218 and the Board for this post.......it is unfortunate.**
    Sorry Folks, please Ignore and continue on.
    Last edited by Spideyfett; Jun 6, 2007 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #57

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    Re: Recasting discussion

    fettpride said: View Post

    There seriously need to be a correction here. And there are a few member that have even been debating this today, however I feel the need to point this out, yet again ... DEAD HORSE

    I bought the molds bro. Not a cast. Didn't make a mold of a single cast. Therefore I did not "Recast" the helmet. I've produced "castings from said molds". There is a HUGE difference.
    Like I said to Mirax, if you bought those molds from LFL then no prob, your covered man.

    Does that make it a not so gray area where it comes to intellectual rights violations? Absolutely not. I've never disagreed that I'm in violation of this. But bro, let me just let ya in on a little secret ... so are YOU. Anyone who buys what we make, is partaking in intellectual rights violations. At least morally and ethically anyway For instance, as a cop, not only did I arrest the drug supplier, but also the buyer. Get it?
    I agree.

    But that leads me to something even more interesting. Why is it that in every thread started on this topic, it all comes down to bashing makers, whether or not they are legit or otherwise?
    If the shoe fits..

    Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?
    There is always someone else FP, don't ever think of yourself as irreplacable, that applies to all aspects of life.

    Now I'm not talking about you in this case, because to my knowledge, you've never purchased anything from me, but good grief bro? You've thrown my name around quite a bit today "just as an example" but it sure looks like you have a problem with me.
    Thats correct, I have never bought anything from you.

  8. #58
    eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Spideyfett said: View Post
    Dude, ...for the sake of this thread, because it's a good thread with a good debate that EVAN4218 started, and I don't want to see it go down....I would suggest you keep what happened on the Jango FP thread in the Cargo hold were it belongs, over there.... And not try to derail this one....which seems to be your intent.....THIS THREAD IS ABOUT RECASTING, NOT ABOUT YOU GETTING YOUR FEELINGS HURT ON ANOTHER THREAD.

    And Trust me, even if FP had never posted anything in that thread I still would've called out a Stupid or Inappropriate comment from any member......again you haven't been around here long enough to know I definitely don't need anyones help when I call people out......

    Hey, didn't you say you were done with this anyway, something about your "blood pressure"??

    Oh and Good luck with your Trash Can Armor and your scratch built Fett, cause it looks like that's all you'll be getting your hands on....since you've shot yourself in the foot in less than 24 hours on this board...real good move bro.

    ** I do want to aplogize to EVAN4218 and the Board for this post.......it is unfortunate.**
    Sorry Folks, please Ignore and continue on.
    And the threats continue... not even bothering to pretend to hide them anymore. As far as "blood pressure" you strike me as completely humorless if you can't distinguish a joke from a serious statement, I would never discuss any medical issues with you or anyone else on a forum board. I haven't bought anything from any alleged recasters, nor do I plan on it, so your threats are empty and meaningless to me. I don't feel that anyone has hurt my feelings, it's a hobby man. I don't get too worked up now that I don't have people shooting at me. Call me names, tell me you hate me, whatever.

    I read that as "anyone who dares to sell you props or armor will face similar dire consequences". Maybe I am the only one who sees that? I have no desire to derail the topic of conversation, recasting. In that Vein, I think this is an interesting article, sure a lot of you are already aware of this, but for those who aren't:

    http://www.lucasfilm.com/press/news/news20070124.html

    I am not sure how that impacts the different arguments on either side, but feel free to form your own opinions.


    -x
    Last edited by eighteendelta; Jun 6, 2007 at 10:08 AM.

  9. #59
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    eighteendelta, while Spidey could be a bit more tactful, the "threat" you are perceiving is only in your head. Stop playing the victim, realize that the approach you are taking, especially as a newcomer, does not work within this community, and try something different. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. It appears that you are doing exactly that. Suck up your pride a little and don't be so easily offended. Correction is not an attack. You have stepped on some toes but it is not beyond repair. While you perceive our members to be attacking you, they are actually making an effort to help you. Again, they may not be doing so in the optimal way, but that is clearly their intent.

    As a further note in regard to LFL. As I mentioned earlier, we exist only due to LFL's generosity. If we were asked by LFL or a lincensee to stop the sale of particular items on TDH, we would comply immediately. If any of our members were to receive a C&D from LFL we would STRONGLY urge you to comply immediately. LFL is not required to issues a C&D. They can and will sue without warning. Any seller must weigh that risk and keep it in mind. It is one of the dangers we face in this hobby and should never take the privelages LFL extends to us for granted.

  10. #60

    Re: Recasting discussion

    Again I want to apologize to the Board:thumbup....I tried to take it to PM....but oh well.

  11. #61

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    Re: Recasting discussion

    evan4218 said: View Post
    This is indeed a good example and one of the big reasons why only a very select few got a copy of your plug and why no more will ever see the light of day. Such a shame. But to a degree you must let go of said piece for the greater good meaning sharing it with other costumers. Much as you did with the ears.



    This is a good point and one that I highlighted in my first post and my post in your cargo hold thread. Folks are so quick to cut hairs on the recasting topic when it comes to alot of the artists on this board but are often the first with there hands out as soon as a run starts on armor or a helmet they want.

    ______

    I think I got a glimpse of a less civil version of this thread starting up in FPs thread and I wanted it moved over here, aired out, and wanted to see where it would truly go. Dead horse or not, there still seem to be lots of members who are a bit fuzzy on the boards stance on recasting.

    The bottom line in my opinion is that we should be thankful that folks like FP, and RS and others use there skills and knolage on this costume and create some of what they create, remaster what they have remasted and offered us up copys of there end result regardless of how it came to be. (I am just naming these too folks because they are commenting in this thread) Try making a prop from scratch and you will see what a large amount of effort, time and money goes into it. Even a hevy mod on a current one is no walk in the park. At the end of the day my, and many others costumes would not be possible with out what the prop makers on this site do. But keep in mind that very few of the things you know and love on your costume came to be out of a hunk of clay, they started from moded DP deluxes, measurements off screen used peices and other such things.

    I think some folks seem to think that is recasting in the common sense of the word but in my eyes its just the art that created the pieces we have on our costume, be it clay, gypsum, metal, modded older sculpts, 3rd gen casts of mystery helmets... ect ect.

    Just my 2 cents
    So in the end.. we can all agree that it's the community as a whole that will shun those "BloodSport Studios" from this board and feel sorry for those noobs for buying junk casts on the Ebay because they have not found TDH yet and continue to encourage newcomers to learn.
    That in my opinion is TDH

  12. #62
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
    Not to completely derail things but I would love to hear more about this... I could be way offbase but this sounds a lot like one of those prop myths propagated by the TE crowd... That doesn't jive at all with typical LFL licensing. Their tack record is of licensing, for big bucks.. not granting someone "permission" to infringe on their copyright... Again, I could totally be off base but would love to hear more about this.

  13. #63
    eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Brak's Buddy said: View Post
    Not to completely derail things but I would love to hear more about this... I could be way offbase but this sounds a lot like one of those prop myths propagated by the TE crowd... That doesn't jive at all with typical LFL licensing. Their tack record is of licensing, for big bucks.. not granting someone "permission" to infringe on their copyright... Again, I could totally be off base but would love to hear more about this.
    I agree, it doesn't seem to fit their history. It does sound a lot like an attempt by someone to pass off a recast for big$$$ and morally exculpate themselves.

    -x

  14. #64

    Re: Recasting discussion

    Delta75 said: View Post
    So in the end.. we can all agree that it's the community as a whole that will shun those "BloodSport Studios" from this board and feel sorry for those noobs for buying junk casts on the Ebay because they have not found TDH yet and continue to encourage newcomers to learn.
    That in my opinion is TDH
    I think "continuing to encourage newcomers" has been the theme of these kinds of threads in the last couple of days......

    But I agree, in the end it's a good thing to revisit this Debate from time to time.

    For me personnally, I want the "GOOD STUFF" in terms of props when building my FETT..... And last time I checked there weren't any really "great recasts" (if there is such a thing) on Ebay...All the Masters, Artists, and Prop builders for Fett are all members of THIS board already....So why bite the hand that feeds us because of a gray area....

    Good thread.

  15. #65
    NikNak_aka's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    fettpride said: View Post
    I don't even make a Jet Pack for goodness sake.

    So when are you gonna start working on this?

  16. #66

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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Spideyfett said: View Post
    I think "continuing to encourage newcomers" has been the theme of these kinds of threads in the last couple of days......

    But I agree, in the end it's a good thing to revisit this Debate from time to time.

    For me personnally, I want the "GOOD STUFF" in terms of props when building my FETT..... And last time I checked there weren't any really "great recasts" (if there is such a thing) on Ebay...All the Masters, Artists, and Prop builders for Fett are all members of THIS board already....So why bite the hand that feeds us because of a gray area....

    Good thread.
    Spidey, keep in mind when you setup shop at something as big as C4 and advertise yourself where the entire audience "is your target audience". Your going to attract a TON of noobs. Is that bad? Well, it can be at sometimes but you never know when the next MOW will show up.

    We all want the "Good Stuff" Spidey, but not at the cost of our dignity to creators with a god complex. I learned a long time ago in my fighting days, there is ALWAYS someone better than you.

    Is there an elitest attitude at TDH? Of course there is and the new members see it most of all. Props are for sale in this community, knowledge shouldn't be.

  17. #67
    I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    This thread should have never been made.
    We have had a few of these, and they always up bitter, why make more?

  18. #68
    eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    I would also submit the following articles for consideration in this discussion, since they seem to set the legal precedents.

    http://www.starwars.com/collecting/n...s20061011.html

    http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyr...?NoticeID=1910

    We are going to try and stick to the topic this time right?

    -x

  19. #69

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    Re: Recasting discussion

    The Clayster said: View Post
    This thread should have never been made.
    We have had a few of these, and they always up bitter, why make more?
    Maybe some things just need to be said Clayster, you can't have thousands of people in one room and expect them all to think alike. A helathy debate usually brings out the truth. Whether some want it out or not.

  20. #70

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    Re: Recasting discussion

    dbl post

  21. #71
    NikNak_aka's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Yeah well LFL chooses their battles. SDS was a very high profile case as it dealt with some one who actually worked on the films. If LFL wanted they could shut down TDH and any of the artists here. But they choose not to and that's their choice. Its not like TDH is some kind of secret underground prop ring that tries to hide its dealings. We had a booth a C4 for Christs sake.

    I'd like to think if SDS was a prop board member(not just tdh), as oppose to a business that was trying to make a living off of the props they were selling, that the SDS buckets and armor would probably have been as available as an FX or AP kit. Instead they created a fan fair with bold claims and a fancy website, which more or less put a target on their back.

    The other article I have no clue what it is referring to but it seems again to be more of a business model trying to make lots of money off a LFL license.

    Most of the artists here sell their work for what seems to be little more than cost. Cost being: Time Taken(for sculpting/casting/painting) + Parts(resin, aluminum, fiberglass, paint ect) = Cost

    In some cases they only charge cost of parts and shipping.

    I'd think LFL would be more concerned with people looking to make mass amounts of money off of licenses rather than people selling a limited number of items at cost or near cost.
    Last edited by NikNak_aka; Jun 6, 2007 at 12:26 PM.

  22. #72
    I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Delta75 said: View Post
    Maybe some things just need to be said Clayster, you can't have thousands of people in one room and expect them all to think alike. A helathy debate usually brings out the truth. Whether some want it out or not.
    Who said I didnt want it out?
    I am saying that this thread is going to start more arguments than it already has.

  23. #73
    Cerillo's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    After reading many of the responses reguarding this topic and thinking on it I've come to one conclusion and it is really very simple,.... "DO YOUR RESEARCH!"..... We know who to go to and who to stay away from and we can thank the folks in this Forum for that. So if you need anything that pertains to Fett you can get it here. Just as if you were building a Vader or R-2 or 3P0 and so on.

    Now as for recasting in this community The numbers are small and we can leave it up to the parties involed and Admin the keep these matters "IN HOUSE." But simply put you get what you pay for. So, If you see a Starter Helmet that's $100.00 in this forum and then scoot over to Flea Bay for a Helmet that's $80.00 (I think you all know what I'm talking about) then it's safe to say that if you leave this forum to go and get it somewhere else,.. Your not gonna to be too happy about what you get. Not saying that e-bay does'nt have good buys, but if it does you'll know about it from in here.

    So do yourself a favor and STAY HERE!!!! C
    Last edited by Cerillo; Jun 6, 2007 at 12:48 PM.

  24. #74

    Re: Recasting discussion

    Delta75 said: View Post
    Is there an elitest attitude at TDH? Of course there is and the new members see it most of all. Props are for sale in this community, knowledge shouldn't be.
    Nah..I used to think so....but after meeting a ton of fellow TDH'ers at C4 I have to say the whole Elitest thing has gone out the window for me...and is an old argument for Another Thread, not this one.

    Besides half the stuff we say or post on this board gets misinterpreted.
    Once you met people face to face...whole other ball game, trust me...and people I had issues with that I met at C4, we just laughed it off and had a drink or two...or three, or four.

    Now back to the subject....Recasting.

  25. #75
    I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Spideyfett said: View Post
    Nah..I used to think so....but after meeting a ton of fellow TDH'ers at C4 I have to say the whole Elitest thing has gone out the window for me...and is an old argument for Another Thread, not this one.

    Besides half the stuff we say or post on this board gets misinterpreted.
    Once you met people face to face...whole other ball game, trust me...and people I had issues with that I met at C4, we just laughed it off and had a drink or two...or three, or four.

    Now back to the subject....Recasting.
    Almost everything I say on this board gets misinterpreted, I just get used to it.

    Meeting everyone at CIV was awesome, also when I had random TDH'ers come up to me and say "whats up?"

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