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Recasting discussion

  1. #26
    drokkul's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Mirax H said: View Post
    Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

    Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

    I'm like Nostradamus or something

  2. #27
    drokkul's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Delta75 said: View Post
    2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
    "Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

    My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.
    I think the difference is that FP paid somebody for "rights" to the molds. And probably a pretty handsome amount.

  3. #28

    Member Since
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Mirax H said: View Post
    Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

    Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

    So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".
    I wouldn't expect any less that to be followed up by you Mirax

    I'm not bashing FP TDH'ers, just using him as an example. If FP bought those molds from LFL then yes, he has the same rights as SGB in Example #1. Just as Evan with the Cobra lids has the same rights as SGB does.

    But in the end, it all comes back to each person, as Mirax said, will you support "recaster guy" in either example.

  4. #29

    Re: Recasting discussion

    I cannot be more agree ...

    This is what I think... as a costumer... and as a buyer... (cause I'm not a prop maker at all... no really idea how to do it).

    As a costumer... I start a project... and need some parts. I always use to want the best as possible, and I try to do my best to get the best one. Off course, I prefer to get everything from the original makers, I hate recast, they are a lack of respect to the original makers, and also they use to lost accuracy. Those are my 2 main reasons why to buy everything from origin and not recast. I'd never doubt about get an original piece or a recast one (even if the recasted are cheaper)...

    BUT...

    What would you do, if the piece you want is not available from the original source, you want it soooo badly ... and the only way to get it is buy a recast of that piece you want ??? You dont have other choice to get what you want (ok, we could make it, or get another one... but if you really want that one.. what would you do) ?

    With this I'm not defending recast... I really hate it... but I feel the same as Mirax... If the original maker makes them available to all the people interested (all he can off course), that way the maker would KILL the recasters, because would be a fight between ORIGNAL vs COPY... (there is no doubt for me), so everybody would be happy... and recaster wouldnt even think about recast somethign that is available...

    A simple example... Who would be so stupid to recast a FP Boba armor, when he is selling it for an amazing price...??? You can get it NOW, the price is sooo great, and is the same maker, 1st generation, absolutely perfect... So, a recast would be really stupid...

    That is what I think should be done to finally "kill" the recasters ... the one and only way...

    But well, I may be wrong... that's just how I see this "prop/costuming" world I wish everything could be a little easier for everybody... prop makers, buyers-cu/ostomers, etc...

    Ben.

    Mirax H said: View Post
    While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

  5. #30
    Skalen Fehl's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    The never ending debate.

    I think Mirax and tubachris summed it up best. To paraphrase:

    Casters: Create at your own risk. It's someone else's intellectual property.

  6. #31
    I helped at SDCC '08 GCNgamer128's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    The Clayster said: View Post
    I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

    I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

    And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
    I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.
    That noob has recasted action figures and tried to sell them to us. He even tried to make a trophy using a Stormtrooper figure and a spraypaint cap.

  7. #32
    General Grievous's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Not trying to starting an Argument.
    I agree with almost All of what Mirax said. Not Knocking you Mirax, your Post is Excellent.
    The only part I don't agree with the part about "the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this". I don't think this is Entirely true.
    Say you decide to make something like Ammo Belts or Jumpsuits or whatever.
    You spend Hours and Hours researching, measuring, making patterns. Spend lots of Money building prototypes and tweeking them to get the Best, most accurate product to offer to your fellow builders.
    You offer them only to have someone buy one, take it apart, findout how you made it , use it as a pattern and offer it for sale. To me this is also a "Form" of recasting. While it may not be a Direct "Cast" of your item, They have still profited off of your hard work.
    This is only My opinion and No Disrespect ment to Mirax or anyone else.
    As for the Examples I'm speaking hypothetically since I'm a Buyer not a Maker. Couldn't sew to save my life!
    I am Not a supporter of Recasting. Having said that, I did buy a recasted copy of a DP Deluxe Vader helmet. So does that make me a Hypocrite?
    Maybe. But, I also bought a Bust off of ebay that was supposedly bought from and made by a Very Talented sculpter on the RPF. The picture in the Auction showed the bust and it was primered. When I received it, it wasn't primered had never been primered. It had bits of light blue silicone mold stuck in the pores of the skin and hair. Alot of tiny air bubbles and a big Fugly seam on the back of the head. I took pictures of it and sent it to the Original sculpter. He confirmed that it was indeed a Recast and was Understandingly upset.
    I did not keep it, but I didn't get rid of it either. I Destroyed it. I took pictures of it and emailed it to the person I bought it from and let them know that the Sculpter was aware of what he was doing. No more have been offered on Ebay.

    Having been on several Forums for a long time I've noticed that Star Wars Fans, including Myself, are sticklers for detail. They want everything as Accurate as possible. And if it has somehow touched an Original somewhere down the line, all the Better.

    I think if you take a copyrighted item, change it somewhat and offer casts or Recasts of it, you shouldn't get so Upset when someone does the same to you. Just my personal opinion. All you've done is take an existing item and moddified it. It isn't an Original work that you created. Yes you may have spent alot of time and even money to alter the piece, but in the end it still isn't your Original Creation

    But, if you Make an Original Item (gauntlets, helmets, armor, busts,etc...)
    that you made from scratch using your talents that it should not be Recast.
    Nor do I think anyone should knowingly buy a recast of this kind.

    I think alot of the problem with recasts on ebay is the Fact that there are thousands of Collectors and Fans that don't know about forums like TDH and the RPF. so there only outlet for these types of items is Ebay.

    Hopefully this long post makes since to somebody. I'm not sure if I got my point accross or not.
    Again, I'm not trying to tick anyone off, these are My Opinions Only and that is what was asked for.

    General Grievous
    Last edited by Star Wars Chick; Jun 5, 2007 at 6:06 PM. Reason: language

  8. #33

    Re: Recasting discussion

    what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

    so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

    so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

    MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

    Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
    The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
    from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

    my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

    Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

    so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

  9. #34
    Laan's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    I just dont understand what good can a thread like this bring? Not slamming you evan4218, I promise.
    I feel like this has been hashed out several times and comes with the same conclusion over and over. Some do some dont. That choice is up the the individual. Word of mouth is a great thing. I know the prop community is a tight bunch. If someone thinks or knows someone is a recaster it will get around. It will be harder for that person to recast.
    We all have our own opinions. We will not always agree. But that is what makes each and everyone of us unique. But to bring this up again will certainly leave people upset, angry and possible turn new and experienced THD'rs away. Just would hate to see that.
    My opinion, mine only. No disrespect intended. Made anyone mad, send me a pm. I dont mind.
    Peace love and happiness

  10. #35
    slavefive's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

    so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

    so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

    MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

    Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
    The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
    from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

    my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

    Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

    so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.
    ...wowzers!!!!!

    ...what he said

  11. #36
    eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

    so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

    so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

    MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

    Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
    The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
    from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

    my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

    Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

    so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.
    That's a lot of interesting stuff I did not know. Thank you hippo, you're an informative fellow. I have to concur with you on a great deal of what you say. I guess I need to do some more history digging on this topic.

    -x

  12. #37

    Re: Recasting discussion

    This is one reason Myself and others steer caution on letting stuff out. If you assume the risk of making something don't let it out and make darn sure you trust who you let have it. One of the reasons I'm having second thoughts on letting the rocket pack is the recasting potential. I know the ears I had made were probably recasted the second they hit a certain fews (no one in particular) hands but if they recast it and claim it as their own resculpt or the new and improved version only to capitalize off of it, that is lowest of low in my book.

    I let the ears out as a test to see what does happen to them before I let other stuff out. Overall I think folks have been very good about it on here I don't recall anyone ever recasting FP but then again I may be wrong. Also, what happens if you copy a Sgt Fang helmet he bought it off EBAY and has no rights to it perse' is it just an honor thing that stops that (sorry, I couldn't think of a good example so I picked on Sarge).

    Lee
    Last edited by Rogue Studios; Jun 6, 2007 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #38
    I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

    so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

    so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

    MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

    Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
    The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
    from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

    my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

    Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

    so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.
    exactly.

  14. #39
    NikNak_aka's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Read the CoC....

    "Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

    To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

    As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

    The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

  15. #40
    I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    NikNak_aka said: View Post
    Read the CoC....

    "Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another memberís creation without consent is not supported by this community."

    To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

    As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

    The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.
    So some people still support recasters, even though they all are against it?

  16. #41
    eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    The Clayster said: View Post
    So some people still support recasters, even though they all are against it?
    That's what it sounds like.

    -x

  17. #42
    Jango and Zam's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    I'm looking for a helmet and don't know who to buy from.
    Which is the best?
    Who has the best cast ?
    Who dose the best work?
    What it comes down to for me (new guy).
    What I like ,What I can afford. And reseach on the Dented Helmet.
    And I have read a lot of threads to day still trying to decide on which one to buy.

  18. #43
    eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Jango and Zam said: View Post
    I'm looking for a helmet and don't know who to buy from.
    Which is the best?
    Who has the best cast ?
    Who dose the best work?
    What it comes down to for me (new guy).
    What I like ,What I can afford. And reseach on the Dented Helmet.
    And I have read a lot of threads to day still trying to decide on which one to buy.
    Big question.
    Hotly debated.
    Some issues people are going to ask are things like what size is your head? or how tall are you?
    Price range?
    Plan on painting yourself or are you looking for a finished helmet?
    If you get a kit form you can still pay someone else to paint/weather it.
    There are other things but I will leave it to one of the more experienced members to carry it from here.

    This probably isn't the best thread to address this question as well. Try the Boba helmet section if that's appropriate or the Jango section if that's appropriate.

    -x

  19. #44

    Re: Recasting discussion

    "The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before."

    if you say this then i am free to decide (cranberries) but then why do they have a recasting rule. to me it sounds like a double standard. you cant recast here, dont try to sell a recast but YOU decide wether or not you want to buy it. that sounds like a revovling door.

    "Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another memberís creation without consent is not supported by this community."

    to me it says exactely what is says. if you copy ones work, it is recasting. if you copy a members work that is recasting and not tolerated. so to me it states 2 recasting issues. companies and members.

    i would like the dent to chime in. i am very curious on his take.

  20. #45
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: Recasting discussion

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.
    Hippo Clone, while you have a number of very valid points and bring up issues that every member should carefully consider, you appear to be confused in regard to TDH's statement in the CoC in regard to recasting.

    In your example above, the DP helmet IS a recast as defined by TDH's CoC. The problem lies in your expectation of a reaction from the administration to the helmet being a recast. Your assumption that nothing is done due to the member selling it having a high post count is erroneous. There is no special treatment because a member posts often and there is no "grandfathering in" on a board level. Whether a senior member or a newbie made this sale, it would be left up to the members to decide if they wish to support this form of recasting.

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.
    Again, there is no argument that the helmet in question is a recast. Again your assumption that the sale is allowed because "they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets" is incorrect. And again, it is left to the members to decide whether they will support this form of recasting.

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
    Incorrect again. The administration is not "looking the other way." At this point I feel like a broken record, but just to make sure there is no cofusion, mystery casting are recasts. It is left to the members to decide whether they will support this form of recasting.

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?
    I have never entirely understood this myself in regard to anything other than one sculptor selling the rights to his sculpt to someone else. Why anyone would pay for "rights" to anyone other than the original sculptor is very confusing because the seller doesn't actually have the authority to grant such rights. This seems to be extremely prevalent in the strormtrooper armor and helmet circles but fortunately is not as prevalent here.

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.
    From what you have said it seems that you believe that there is some type of punishment for anyone who makes or sells a recast item. This is not the case. Although it has been posted previously, the recasting rule states:

    "Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another memberís creation without consent is not supported by this community."

    NinNak_aka nailed it when he posted:

    NikNak_aka said: View Post
    Read the CoC....
    To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

    The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.
    I am not sure how we can be more clear or concise than that. You may not agree with that stance, and that is ok, but from previous experience, we feel this is the best approach.

    D

  21. #46
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 2002
    From
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    8,183

    Re: Recasting discussion

    Hippo Clone said: View Post
    "The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before."

    if you say this then i am free to decide (cranberries) but then why do they have a recasting rule. to me it sounds like a double standard. you cant recast here, dont try to sell a recast but YOU decide wether or not you want to buy it. that sounds like a revovling door.

    "Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another memberís creation without consent is not supported by this community."

    to me it says exactely what is says. if you copy ones work, it is recasting. if you copy a members work that is recasting and not tolerated. so to me it states 2 recasting issues. companies and members.

    i would like the dent to chime in. i am very curious on his take.
    Just finished commenting on your earlier post, but let me clarify based on what you have written here.

    The first sentence of the recasting "rule" is indeed a statement. It defines what is considered a recast item here at TDH. While this statement defines a recast, it does not place a judgement on a recast item, good or bad. This applies to any recast item, be it from a studio, a licensee, or an individual.

    The second sentence states that this community does not support the recasting of a member's creation. Read that carefully. This community does not support the recasting of a member's creation. Again, a statement and this time there is an implied judgment that recasting another member's work is frowned upon. However, unlike many of the other stances in the CoC, there is not a defined punishment for such an action. Does this mean the administration would do nothing if a member's creation was recast? That would be determined on a case by case basis and we refuse to make a blanket statement because experience has shown us that such situations almost always involve a misunderstanding and extenuating circumstances.

    As has been stated ad nauseam, instead of taking on the badge of "recasting" police", the administration has left the decision of supporting or not supporting recasters in the hands of the members. They will determine this with their $$$. However, as with any stance here at TDH, "the administrative staff reserves the right to change and interpret this code as they see fit. Anything they feel is unbecoming of TDH will be removed at their digression. The judgments and decisions of the administrative staff are final."


    Again, you may not agree with this stance, but hopefully you better understand it.

    D

  22. #47

    Member Since
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,001

    Re: Recasting discussion

    Evan? Comments?

  23. #48
    Ordo Te'skot's Avatar
    Member Since
    May 2007
    From
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    133

    Re: Recasting discussion

    I know that I am relatively new here, and perhaps it's not my place to step in here... but here goes:

    From my point of view, pretty much *any* unlicensed replica, whether modified or not, is in violation of copywright law, and is technically a "recast". You're always going to have that one or two irrational people who are going to make an issue of that. In that case, it comes down to points of view basically.

    All of the wonderful fan-based stuff simply wouldn't exist if some of us didn't copy, in some form or another, the original work. It's all an idea, that we are fortunate enough to be a part of.

    As for my view, I look at it like this: MR sucks. Ask almost anyone who was at the RPF when MR came into being. Add that to the fact that their customer service sucks, and most of their items are made to cater to the wealthy, and then some issues with their accuracy(most of the time). Someone like me, who can't afford $150 - $500 per item in my collection, has to either go without, make our own stuff from scratch, or find someone who offers a "build it yourself" kit, which official outlets don't offer. To us, and I mean people like me, it's not about making money... I would never try to make copies of someone else's idea or work to make a profit. To me, people who make runs of items solely to make a profit (Most of the aforementioned EBAY recasters) should be run out of the market. They don't generally give a **** about quality, and they're not in it for the love of the hobby. They're in it solely for money.

    On the other hand, you have people here, who re-design and/or re-cast and modify pieces... To provide better quality, better accuracy, variety, and a whole host of reasons. And yes, some of the pieces cost alot of $$$... But most of the time, it's by someone who cares about the hobby rather than someone out to make a buck. In my mind, it's the intent that should matter. If someone re-casts or re-sculpts something that's either not available in the first place, or not available currently, then they are doing the hobby a favor. Most of us aren't in this hobby for an "investment", we're in it for personal enjoyment.

    That being said, to me it comes down to intent, and what's available by other members.

  24. #49

    Re: Recasting discussion

    Well, this has been an exhausting day hasn't it?

    I've scanned about 90% of this thread but can't really do it much longer as my eyes are failing me at the moment. (Gettin OLD !)

    But there are a few things I'd like to address ...


    Delta75 said: View Post
    I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.
    Me too. And me too. So here it comes ....


    Delta75 said: View Post
    I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

    Lets take FP for example #2

    2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
    "Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

    My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

    Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

    There seriously need to be a correction here. And there are a few member that have even been debating this today, however I feel the need to point this out, yet again ... DEAD HORSE

    I bought the molds bro. Not a cast. Didn't make a mold of a single cast. Therefore I did not "Recast" the helmet. I've produced "castings from said molds". There is a HUGE difference. Does that make it a not so gray area where it comes to intellectual rights violations? Absolutely not. I've never disagreed that I'm in violation of this. But bro, let me just let ya in on a little secret ... so are YOU. Anyone who buys what we make, is partaking in intellectual rights violations. At least morally and ethically anyway For instance, as a cop, not only did I arrest the drug supplier, but also the buyer. Get it?

    But that leads me to something even more interesting. Why is it that in every thread started on this topic, it all comes down to bashing makers, whether or not they are legit or otherwise? Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?

    Now I'm not talking about you in this case, because to my knowledge, you've never purchased anything from me, but good grief bro? You've thrown my name around quite a bit today "just as an example" but it sure looks like you have a problem with me.

    It comes down to this. If guys like myself, Man of War, SGB, Mardon, Ruffkintoys, BKBT, ect, ect, didn't exist because of the fickle back and forth at your convenience, boards like this, wouldn't exist as we know it. And guess what, even George Lucas himself has acknowledged this these days. I have the utmost respect for the man, and his empire, but realistically, he or his advisors have come to terms with, it's ppl like "US" as a community, that keep the interest and addictions going. As long as ppl like me aren’t' looking to capitalize on his intellectual property in an attempt to get rich, he actually appreciates what we do for him and his bottom line.
    Personally, I've never sold enough to get rich. And never intend to. I have never considered myself an armorer, or a one stop shop. I don't even make a Jet Pack for goodness sake. I've offered what I've had, when I could, as a service here. And that leads me to a related notion ..

    I've been turning a blind eye for sometime now. It's becoming more and more apparent that the more I let it go, the worse it will get over time. For months now, ppl have been comfortable enough to label me a "recaster" from time to time. Even if just simple semantics, it's not boding well with me. So lets clear a few things up, shall we?

    Lets start with what I have made, with my own bare hands. Gauntlets. Armor. That's all I've ever offered besides the MSH2 until recently. How is it that I am a recaster? I have proof I made these items. Some of our administrators were even involved in the conception of these items.

    Then comes the MSH2. Lets clear that one up again. It started as an MSH. Got it. This is the short answer. Once again, I purchased the rights from Natty15d. One of this boards finest artisans. He was no longer interested in making them available. It was hurting his relationship with his significant other who eventually became his wife and mother of his child. He put them up for sale. I stepped up to the plate when no one else could find funding, because I didn't want to see his creation exploited by some shady character. So we agreed on a price, and I paid it. How is this bad? K , so from there, I decided to make a new one. Initially, it was based on the MSH. In a very short time, it became a new sculpt. Just like the original artist sculpted his MSH using an old DP as an armature, I did the same, using a casting of the MSH1, that I purchased the rights to. Again, private original artist, whom I purchased the right to carry on. NOT RECASTING in an sense used in the CoC. The MSH2 was then released. And expired after a short run, and has never been produced since. Yeah, I'm really in this to rape the members of their purses here

    Then, comes Jango. Ooops. I can't begin to tell you that I regret this darned thing more and more everyday. You get ppl saying things like this ...

    eighteendelta said: View Post
    I think threatening to not make more helmets, props or anything else, shows the clearest intent of the whole drama. "I want people to stroke my ego and to tell me not to listen to the nay sayers", that's what that reaction screams to me. Hate me for saying it, but fine, don't make any more helmets, eat your losses on buying those molds, that's my feeling on the subject.
    -x
    It was obvious that it was me he was referring to. Making statements saying that I might not release something couldn't be more true as I have made or eluded to it. "Not to stroke my own ego, or to get anyone else to stroke it. But simply because this Jango has been a thorn in my side from day one. I would much rather eat my losses then to deal with this kind of ****. Ya know? And sure, you could care less, but what about the Jango fans out there that pay the price when I throw in the towel?

    If the Jango helmet is why ppl are getting comfortable with calling me a recaster, it needs to be nipped, here and now. For the last time, I didn't cast a cast. I purchased molds. Yes, copyright, and intellectual rights violations. But not recaster in the sense used in the CoC for pete sake.

    Anyone else want to call me a recaster? Tell me why. Give me a real good reason, and I'll step back. I've always been the first to step up and call someone out for recasting. Hello, "Fettpropartist" in the recent past? I was banned for calling out Randy5000. And I've even been wrong in my accusations in the past. But I've always thrown caution to the wind and risked my standing with this forum to fight against it when no one else had the nuggets for it. Some of you are too new to even remember.

    This is getting truly ridiculous guys and gals. Either you support those who help you support your habit, or you support your habit alone. Talk about mixed signals, and talking through both sides of your mouths? I've done nothing but try to please everyone I can. And I get labelled an egomaniac, an elitist, just to name a few.

    And as far as those calling me out for getting bent over someone threatening to recast this helmet? let me draw your attention to the statement I made on the other thread. Shall we?

    fettpride said: View Post
    If you want a recast, they exist. Ya want a contact? PM me. I'd be happy to pass on the biz. It will be a 3rd, 4th, or maybe even 5th generation casting, may or may not be cold cast, even if it is, won't be done to any exacting standard. Guaranteed. Oh, and you'll be lucky if a 5 yr old could where it, as they're already on the small side as it is.

    Why would I do that and seemingly shoot myself in the foot you might ask? Because, first, I absolutely HATE making them. It is a bigger PAIN IN THE RUMP than you can possibly imagine. If you're casting them with any pride that is. So I'm in no hurry, really Second, I really don't care to get rich off of them and face the wrath in court.

    So, ya want one? A recast? More power to ya. Hell, I could help ya out with that too, I have some old silicone laying around I can send ya for cheap

    FP
    Does this look like I'm crying about it? Does this look like hypocrisy? If ya'll want to recast it, GO FOR IT! You'll have a teeny weenie kiddie helmet when you're done. And not to mention, there will always be a majority of us here on this forum that want as close to 1st genereation as possible. Why would I worry about a 3rd or 4th gen floating around?


    Lets just get the air clear here. Do you guys (and gals) really want cool toys, or not?



    NikNak_aka said: View Post
    Read the CoC....

    "Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

    To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

    As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.
    Ya know, this is a very unique way of looking at it. Never considered that myself. Interesting, to say the least. Great job bro


    Just my 2 cents. Keep ‘em coming. I've got nothing better to do

    FP
    Last edited by webchief; Jun 6, 2007 at 6:23 AM.

  25. #50

    Re: Recasting discussion

    oh dont get me wrong, i am not signaling out anyone one person here or current situation. i could care less. not my work being copied. i just want to understand. thanks for responding.

    ok, so you just clarify what recasting is outside the dented helmet forum, then recasting a tdh members work is not supported by the community. hmm. i understand now. its frowned upon but if a member recasts its up to the community not to support. no secret police or flogging. i must be tired.

    and the mr paragragh. i wasnt being literal, the statement is what i have heard through many forums. i ment it as the cohesive consious of the people. they blame mr to justify recasting their helmet to make a profit.

    ok, i have read your replies, i am cool with it. your forum, your rules. i am prior military. i am used to ONLY black or white, not gray. gray area is when if you get away with it, great, count your blessings, if you are caught, a courtmartial/trial will proove you wrong. like i said, i just wanted clarification.


    i like this one-----

    "As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work."

    so since it doesnt affect the person directly (hence a company made up of thousands) its ok to rip them off? so if there was a mr rep on this board like the rpf, then would that apply nik nak aka?

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