Recasting discussion

stemming from the Jango Helmet auction thread I wanted to start a separate thread getting feedback from members here both old and new on your ideas, and feelings on recasting.

Obviously the Admins do not condone or support recasting in any which way or form. That being said there are some types that I see as allowable. Such as the Mystery Helmets or Don Post castings. But for what ever reason some people still get a tad divided on that stuff.

I can only use my self as an example but knowing what goes into buying molds and the right to use them isnt something to pass off as nothing. I paid over a grand for the rights to some G.I. Joe helmet molds that I produce and there is a reason I am protective of the rights. If you invest your time its the same as money and vise versa. You want folks to have enough respect to come to you if they want a copy and understand that your not a business but rather a hobbiest. This is why some things will only be available in limited quantities and for short times.

I have never had real issues with the folks that offer augmented versions of the Mystery helmet castings because there is no owner to say its ok or its not, rather just that, a mysterycasting with very little info. They have tweeked them, reworked them and offered them to us so we have decent helmets to wear. I do however get irritated when they claim the helmet is something that it isnt. Once you rework something your artwork is now a part of it, and I think that new effort demands at least a tiny bit of respect.

What really rubs me the wrong way though was the comment in the other thread that seemed to point at the idea that because something cost alot, it should be okay to recast it and offer it at a cheap price. Well, if you pay attention to the auctions on ebay with the "Junk" recasted helmets thats what you get when you do that. Junk! There is always someone who gets wide eyes and thinks they can make a buck quickly and makes a poor mold to make dupes.

I want to keep the the quality makers making quality products and that goes with everyone we know and are use to on this board. If you want to try and offer something similar at a cheaper price, buy there molds or find a source piece that is acceptable to make castings from and offer them at the same quality for the same price.

I would like to see constructive input from other members on this thread to get an idea of where peoples heads are at on this subject.

I think we as a community some times take for granted folks like Ruffkins, ManofWar, and Fettpride like stores always offering these things we use on our costumes but if we were to all disrespect them and recast there parts and start to sell them, would we have the same basic thing cheaper? Most likely but we would loose them from the community and loose there quality that they bring.

Thanks and I look forward to reading other members thoughts on this.

...yikes...this thread could get interesting...

Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.

I think before this thread gets a full head of steam......the Question for me would be, Are we Just talking about the Mystery Helmets??..or over all "RECASTING"??

Originally Posted by asok

Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.

Of course..

Originally Posted by drokkul

LOL!!

This is something that people will never agree on. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts. The people who want to recast, let them. They will get what they deserve. It does ruin it for everyone else that respects the hard work put into it. Personally, all you (as in the individual) can do what you believe is right, good and fair.

Not what I really want to say, but its short and sweet... like me .

Originally Posted by Spideyfett

I think before this thread gets a full head of steam......the Question for me would be, Are we Just talking about the Mystery Helmets??..or over all "RECASTING"??

Over all Recasting.

Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.

It is thus far, but be prepared for Strong opinions here. That is what I wanted, bur do step in if people are being out right disrespectful.

and by that I mean anyone who does that, not Evan, I dont know if he does that, so I am not saying anything rude to him.

I do not, and no offense taken, I respect your point of view and am glad you shared it. Thus the purpose of this thread, I wanted to see some non venomous posts and opinions on recasting as this is a topic that gets brought up all to often.

Originally Posted by drokkul

That is awesome! And yes it could be viewed as that but I really wanted folks deeper thoughts then what have been shared and why. If you think recasting should be acceptable, why? If you think people who do it are terrible but you dont mind mystery recasts, why??? That kind of thing. Just an honest open discussion. And I may not get that from this thread or ever as it usually turns into a nasty mess, though I think ASOK was a bit premature to jump on here with a warning. But I think he should watch the thread just the same due to the history of the topic.

Originally Posted by eighteendelta

While I think there is a bit too much leniency on recasting on this board I also think some people need to read a little closer before looking for a reason to go off. I think that the buyers are the ones who need to develop a healthy respect for the original works, yelling at them and insulting them doesn't do it. We cannot expect the recasters themselves to develop a consciences over their misdeeds. I also think that some people are a bit quick to judge others based on their post count numbers or their sign up date, I can recall at least 4 times in the last month I've seen that come up as an issue. It's inappropriate. I think threatening to not make more helmets, props or anything else, shows the clearest intent of the whole drama. "I want people to stroke my ego and to tell me not to listen to the nay sayers", that's what that reaction screams to me. Hate me for saying it, but fine, don't make any more helmets, eat your losses on buying those molds, that's my feeling on the subject. I will admit that some of the posts that set the whole thing off were totally and absolutely inappropriate, but I think they were handled in an equally inappropriate manner. Neither of which,to me, is acceptable. While I personally will never see the need to support recasters or any other shady practices, nor do I see the need to support rude or inappropriate behavior or attitudes towards other board members, even the ignorant ones.

-x

I would agree with some of what your saying. I think you cannot expect recasters to come to there senses. And folks are always to hard on noobs! But that being said are we not accountable for our words, even in ignorances?

Keep in mind this thread is some what spawned due to what happened in the cargo hold yesterday but I dont want this to be a discussion about that. That thread has all that can be said, the poster apologized and stated his opinion and it should be left at that. I am not condoning any of the statements of that thread nor condimming them, but this thread is only related by subject matter and not a discussion on someone talking about the idea of recasting from that direct thread.

Sorry, I cleaned up some of the incoherency of my post a bit. As far as beating a dead horse, some of us weren't here to swing at it the last time or two it came around, so I think Evan4218 is right and it's healthy to review opinions and stances on this topic, lest the lessons learned be lost to archived threads.

(I am just the run-on king today)

-x

The only reason I poste dthe dead horse is because these threads always seem to turn out the same way.

• Somebody questions others views on recasting
• People respond
• Somebody brings up Sgt Fang and MS
• Mods warn to keep it nice and shiny
• people start grumbling a bit
• Someone posts the part of CoC regarding either recasting or being nice to one another
• somebody posts a really inflammatory remark
• others take offense
• people take sides
• it escalates
• thread gets locked or deleted

I hope it doesn't turn out this way, because I really like to see other peoples views on this as well.

I know personally that I would hate to get something like this done to me. I know that when you put in a huge amount of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into something just to have it taken for granted or completely taken credit for by some one else it just (insert asterisks here).

Originally Posted by drokkul

The only reason I poste dthe dead horse is because these threads always seem to turn out the same way.

• Somebody questions others views on recasting
• People respond
• Somebody brings up Sgt Fang and MS
• Mods warn to keep it nice and shiny
• people start grumbling a bit
• Someone posts the part of CoC regarding either recasting or being nice to one another
• somebody posts a really inflammatory remark
• others take offense
• people take sides
• it escalates
• thread gets locked or deleted

I hope it doesn't turn out this way, because I really like to see other peoples views on this as well.

I know personally that I would hate to get something like this done to me. I know that when you put in a huge amount of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into something just to have it taken for granted or completely taken credit for by some one else it just (insert asterisks here).

That is how any contraversial thread is.

While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

Ive always dissaproved of recasting, because its technically stealing art and making a profit from it. I hate to say it, but as long as theres a business for items that people here craft and construct, theres ALWAYS going to be someone out there to screw everyone and the makers. Im sure that if I made something one day, and began selling copies, sure enough a few months to a year later, I can see someone selling ****** copies on ebay..

-tubachris
(Recasters are like havin an Ant problem, you try to kill them all, but they keep coming from out of no where)

I have no problem with being harsh, I agree that it is sometime needed. I think there is no excuse for the accusation levied against FP, that 'recasting is OK since this is a recast to begin with' However, I think that moderating should be left to those designated as moderators, like yourself Mirax. There are members here who tend to want to be confrontational, and with their actions say 'look at me, I'm jumping to your defense', then it snowballs.

Some people seem to be on the hunt for comments to construe as insulting so they can beat their chests and say 'I'm defending TDH community'.

Not everyone is capable of addressing issues on the board in a manner that is both as harsh as necessary and not overly judgmental.

These are just my opinions, no intentions to disrespect or attack anyone. It's hard to convey emotions in typed words.

-x

Originally Posted by Mirax H

While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

Awsome post, that is what I am talking about... some great opinions there. Thanks for sharing that Mirax

Originally Posted by evan4218

Awsome post, that is what I am talking about... some great opinions there. Thanks for sharing that Mirax

You're welcome. Just hoping I can help set the trend for what you are after, a civilized discussion and opinion thread.

What am I chopped liver :P

...
...

And that is why I feel lemon meringue is the greatest type of pie in the pie family!

I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

Lets take SGB for example #1

1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

Lets take FP for example #2

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.

Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".

Originally Posted by Delta75

I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

Lets take SGB for example #1

1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

Lets take FP for example #2

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.

I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.

Originally Posted by Mirax H

Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

I'm like Nostradamus or something

Originally Posted by Delta75

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

I think the difference is that FP paid somebody for "rights" to the molds. And probably a pretty handsome amount.

Originally Posted by Mirax H

Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".

I wouldn't expect any less that to be followed up by you Mirax

I'm not bashing FP TDH'ers, just using him as an example. If FP bought those molds from LFL then yes, he has the same rights as SGB in Example #1. Just as Evan with the Cobra lids has the same rights as SGB does.

But in the end, it all comes back to each person, as Mirax said, will you support "recaster guy" in either example.

I cannot be more agree ...

This is what I think... as a costumer... and as a buyer... (cause I'm not a prop maker at all... no really idea how to do it).

As a costumer... I start a project... and need some parts. I always use to want the best as possible, and I try to do my best to get the best one. Off course, I prefer to get everything from the original makers, I hate recast, they are a lack of respect to the original makers, and also they use to lost accuracy. Those are my 2 main reasons why to buy everything from origin and not recast. I'd never doubt about get an original piece or a recast one (even if the recasted are cheaper)...

BUT...

What would you do, if the piece you want is not available from the original source, you want it soooo badly ... and the only way to get it is buy a recast of that piece you want ??? You dont have other choice to get what you want (ok, we could make it, or get another one... but if you really want that one.. what would you do) ?

With this I'm not defending recast... I really hate it... but I feel the same as Mirax... If the original maker makes them available to all the people interested (all he can off course), that way the maker would KILL the recasters, because would be a fight between ORIGNAL vs COPY... (there is no doubt for me), so everybody would be happy... and recaster wouldnt even think about recast somethign that is available...

A simple example... Who would be so stupid to recast a FP Boba armor, when he is selling it for an amazing price...??? You can get it NOW, the price is sooo great, and is the same maker, 1st generation, absolutely perfect... So, a recast would be really stupid...

That is what I think should be done to finally "kill" the recasters ... the one and only way...

But well, I may be wrong... that's just how I see this "prop/costuming" world :$:$:$ I wish everything could be a little easier for everybody... prop makers, buyers-cu/ostomers, etc...

Ben.

Originally Posted by Mirax H

While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

The never ending debate.

I think Mirax and tubachris summed it up best. To paraphrase:

Casters: Create at your own risk. It's someone else's intellectual property.

Originally Posted by The Clayster

I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.

That noob has recasted action figures and tried to sell them to us. He even tried to make a trophy using a Stormtrooper figure and a spraypaint cap.

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

I just dont understand what good can a thread like this bring? Not slamming you evan4218, I promise.
I feel like this has been hashed out several times and comes with the same conclusion over and over. Some do some dont. That choice is up the the individual. Word of mouth is a great thing. I know the prop community is a tight bunch. If someone thinks or knows someone is a recaster it will get around. It will be harder for that person to recast.
We all have our own opinions. We will not always agree. But that is what makes each and everyone of us unique. But to bring this up again will certainly leave people upset, angry and possible turn new and experienced THD'rs away. Just would hate to see that.
My opinion, mine only. No disrespect intended. Made anyone mad, send me a pm. I dont mind.
Peace love and happiness

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

...wowzers!!!!!

...what he said

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

That's a lot of interesting stuff I did not know. Thank you hippo, you're an informative fellow. I have to concur with you on a great deal of what you say. I guess I need to do some more history digging on this topic.

-x

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

exactly.

Read the CoC....

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

Originally Posted by NikNak_aka

Read the CoC....

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

So some people still support recasters, even though they all are against it?

Originally Posted by The Clayster

So some people still support recasters, even though they all are against it?

That's what it sounds like.

-x

I'm looking for a helmet and don't know who to buy from.
Which is the best?
Who has the best cast ?
Who dose the best work?
What it comes down to for me (new guy).
What I like ,What I can afford. And reseach on the Dented Helmet.
And I have read a lot of threads to day still trying to decide on which one to buy.

Originally Posted by Jango and Zam

I'm looking for a helmet and don't know who to buy from.
Which is the best?
Who has the best cast ?
Who dose the best work?
What it comes down to for me (new guy).
What I like ,What I can afford. And reseach on the Dented Helmet.
And I have read a lot of threads to day still trying to decide on which one to buy.

Big question.
Hotly debated.
Some issues people are going to ask are things like what size is your head? or how tall are you?
Price range?
Plan on painting yourself or are you looking for a finished helmet?
If you get a kit form you can still pay someone else to paint/weather it.
There are other things but I will leave it to one of the more experienced members to carry it from here.

This probably isn't the best thread to address this question as well. Try the Boba helmet section if that's appropriate or the Jango section if that's appropriate.

-x

"The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before."

if you say this then i am free to decide (cranberries) but then why do they have a recasting rule. to me it sounds like a double standard. you cant recast here, dont try to sell a recast but YOU decide wether or not you want to buy it. that sounds like a revovling door.

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

to me it says exactely what is says. if you copy ones work, it is recasting. if you copy a members work that is recasting and not tolerated. so to me it states 2 recasting issues. companies and members.

i would like the dent to chime in. i am very curious on his take.

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

Hippo Clone, while you have a number of very valid points and bring up issues that every member should carefully consider, you appear to be confused in regard to TDH's statement in the CoC in regard to recasting.

In your example above, the DP helmet IS a recast as defined by TDH's CoC. The problem lies in your expectation of a reaction from the administration to the helmet being a recast. Your assumption that nothing is done due to the member selling it having a high post count is erroneous. There is no special treatment because a member posts often and there is no "grandfathering in" on a board level. Whether a senior member or a newbie made this sale, it would be left up to the members to decide if they wish to support this form of recasting.

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Again, there is no argument that the helmet in question is a recast. Again your assumption that the sale is allowed because "they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets" is incorrect. And again, it is left to the members to decide whether they will support this form of recasting.

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.

Incorrect again. The administration is not "looking the other way." At this point I feel like a broken record, but just to make sure there is no cofusion, mystery casting are recasts. It is left to the members to decide whether they will support this form of recasting.

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

I have never entirely understood this myself in regard to anything other than one sculptor selling the rights to his sculpt to someone else. Why anyone would pay for "rights" to anyone other than the original sculptor is very confusing because the seller doesn't actually have the authority to grant such rights. This seems to be extremely prevalent in the strormtrooper armor and helmet circles but fortunately is not as prevalent here.

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

From what you have said it seems that you believe that there is some type of punishment for anyone who makes or sells a recast item. This is not the case. Although it has been posted previously, the recasting rule states:

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

NinNak_aka nailed it when he posted:

Originally Posted by NikNak_aka

Read the CoC....
To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

I am not sure how we can be more clear or concise than that. You may not agree with that stance, and that is ok, but from previous experience, we feel this is the best approach.

D

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

"The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before."

if you say this then i am free to decide (cranberries) but then why do they have a recasting rule. to me it sounds like a double standard. you cant recast here, dont try to sell a recast but YOU decide wether or not you want to buy it. that sounds like a revovling door.

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

to me it says exactely what is says. if you copy ones work, it is recasting. if you copy a members work that is recasting and not tolerated. so to me it states 2 recasting issues. companies and members.

i would like the dent to chime in. i am very curious on his take.

Just finished commenting on your earlier post, but let me clarify based on what you have written here.

The first sentence of the recasting "rule" is indeed a statement. It defines what is considered a recast item here at TDH. While this statement defines a recast, it does not place a judgement on a recast item, good or bad. This applies to any recast item, be it from a studio, a licensee, or an individual.

The second sentence states that this community does not support the recasting of a member's creation. Read that carefully. This community does not support the recasting of a member's creation. Again, a statement and this time there is an implied judgment that recasting another member's work is frowned upon. However, unlike many of the other stances in the CoC, there is not a defined punishment for such an action. Does this mean the administration would do nothing if a member's creation was recast? That would be determined on a case by case basis and we refuse to make a blanket statement because experience has shown us that such situations almost always involve a misunderstanding and extenuating circumstances.

As has been stated ad nauseam, instead of taking on the badge of "recasting" police", the administration has left the decision of supporting or not supporting recasters in the hands of the members. They will determine this with their $$$. However, as with any stance here at TDH, "the administrative staff reserves the right to change and interpret this code as they see fit. Anything they feel is unbecoming of TDH will be removed at their digression. The judgments and decisions of the administrative staff are final."


Again, you may not agree with this stance, but hopefully you better understand it.

D

Evan? Comments?

I know that I am relatively new here, and perhaps it's not my place to step in here... but here goes:

From my point of view, pretty much *any* unlicensed replica, whether modified or not, is in violation of copywright law, and is technically a "recast". You're always going to have that one or two irrational people who are going to make an issue of that. In that case, it comes down to points of view basically.

All of the wonderful fan-based stuff simply wouldn't exist if some of us didn't copy, in some form or another, the original work. It's all an idea, that we are fortunate enough to be a part of.

As for my view, I look at it like this: MR sucks. Ask almost anyone who was at the RPF when MR came into being. Add that to the fact that their customer service sucks, and most of their items are made to cater to the wealthy, and then some issues with their accuracy(most of the time). Someone like me, who can't afford $150 - $500 per item in my collection, has to either go without, make our own stuff from scratch, or find someone who offers a "build it yourself" kit, which official outlets don't offer. To us, and I mean people like me, it's not about making money... I would never try to make copies of someone else's idea or work to make a profit. To me, people who make runs of items solely to make a profit (Most of the aforementioned EBAY recasters) should be run out of the market. They don't generally give a **** about quality, and they're not in it for the love of the hobby. They're in it solely for money.

On the other hand, you have people here, who re-design and/or re-cast and modify pieces... To provide better quality, better accuracy, variety, and a whole host of reasons. And yes, some of the pieces cost alot of $$$... But most of the time, it's by someone who cares about the hobby rather than someone out to make a buck. In my mind, it's the intent that should matter. If someone re-casts or re-sculpts something that's either not available in the first place, or not available currently, then they are doing the hobby a favor. Most of us aren't in this hobby for an "investment", we're in it for personal enjoyment.

That being said, to me it comes down to intent, and what's available by other members.

oh dont get me wrong, i am not signaling out anyone one person here or current situation. i could care less. not my work being copied. i just want to understand. thanks for responding.

ok, so you just clarify what recasting is outside the dented helmet forum, then recasting a tdh members work is not supported by the community. hmm. i understand now. its frowned upon but if a member recasts its up to the community not to support. no secret police or flogging. i must be tired.

and the mr paragragh. i wasnt being literal, the statement is what i have heard through many forums. i ment it as the cohesive consious of the people. they blame mr to justify recasting their helmet to make a profit.

ok, i have read your replies, i am cool with it. your forum, your rules. i am prior military. i am used to ONLY black or white, not gray. gray area is when if you get away with it, great, count your blessings, if you are caught, a courtmartial/trial will proove you wrong. like i said, i just wanted clarification.


i like this one-----

"As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work."

so since it doesnt affect the person directly (hence a company made up of thousands) its ok to rip them off? so if there was a mr rep on this board like the rpf, then would that apply nik nak aka?

Bottom line bro, to me, is do you want to be able to participate in the costuming hobby, or not? If you have such a problem with replicas, then well, there's the proverbial door.

I for one want to be able to complete my custom armor and wear it. That's not going to happen if I *only* buy "official licensed replicas". They don't make half of what I want. And they darn sure don't do it in custom.

I have alot of respect for the artists here. I may never buy an MSH2 helm, or an HS helm, or one of 99centtaco's nifty belts(just to name a few things). But I appreciate their contributions, and every other artisan's contributions here. It would be a sad day indeed if the only things we were allowed to do was to buy strictly MR stuff and modify it to suit our custom concepts. I'd have to wear BDU's and an MR helm, and that's about it, mate.

So, like I said... if you have such a problem with the idea, you know where the virtual door is. Just my 2 credits.

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

oh dont get me wrong, i am not signaling out anyone one person here or current situation. i could care less. not my work being copied. i just want to understand. thanks for responding.

ok, so you just clarify what recasting is outside the dented helmet forum, then recasting a tdh members work is not supported by the community. hmm. i understand now. its frowned upon but if a member recasts its up to the community not to support. no secret police or flogging. i must be tired.

and the mr paragragh. i wasnt being literal, the statement is what i have heard through many forums. i ment it as the cohesive consious of the people. they blame mr to justify recasting their helmet to make a profit.

ok, i have read your replies, i am cool with it. your forum, your rules. i am prior military. i am used to ONLY black or white, not gray. gray area is when if you get away with it, great, count your blessings, if you are caught, a courtmartial/trial will proove you wrong. like i said, i just wanted clarification.


i like this one-----

"As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work."

so since it doesnt affect the person directly (hence a company made up of thousands) its ok to rip them off? so if there was a mr rep on this board like the rpf, then would that apply nik nak aka?

Hippo Clone,

It seems that your frustration lies in the fact that most people are willing to bend the rules or have flexible morals when it comes to this topic because without it, they would not be able to get a great deal of what they have and in truth, this hobby would not exist. We exist at the leniency of LFL. At any point they could shut us down for copyright violation, but they choose not to. Some have taken this slight freedom and used it to make a living. Others have used it to make their own costumes. At the end of the day, this entire hobby is in violation of LFL's copyright. With that in mind, TDH decided quite some time ago that on some issues we were not going to be the police of each person's morals. We tried a black and white approach to recasting but continually ran into grey areas and continually found that are decisions felt more and more hypocritical. We finally decided that given the fact this hobby as a whole is an infringement on LFL's copyright, we will let the members decide for themselves whether they want to support recasting or not. The reason that we make note of it being frowned upon to recast another member's creation is that we feel we have some level of obligation to protect our members.

If you were hoping for someone to give you an explanation that would somehow justify people's actions, you won't get it because it can't be justified. This hobby exists at the fringe of legality and fortunately, LFL is more interested in having us around to promote their movies and merchandise than enforcing their copyright. The danger to such a leniency is that over time people begin to incorrectly assume an entitlement mantality and begin to believe they have a "right" to do the things they are doing. The lack of reprisal emboldens them and they begin to act in ways that they should not. We would all do well to remember that we exist only at LFL's graciousness and that leniency could be stripped away at any time.

Originally Posted by Rogue Studios

This is one reason Myself and others steer caution on letting stuff out.

This is indeed a good example and one of the big reasons why only a very select few got a copy of your plug and why no more will ever see the light of day. Such a shame. But to a degree you must let go of said piece for the greater good meaning sharing it with other costumers. Much as you did with the ears.

Originally Posted by fettpride

Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?

This is a good point and one that I highlighted in my first post and my post in your cargo hold thread. Folks are so quick to cut hairs on the recasting topic when it comes to alot of the artists on this board but are often the first with there hands out as soon as a run starts on armor or a helmet they want.

______

I think I got a glimpse of a less civil version of this thread starting up in FPs thread and I wanted it moved over here, aired out, and wanted to see where it would truly go. Dead horse or not, there still seem to be lots of members who are a bit fuzzy on the boards stance on recasting.

The bottom line in my opinion is that we should be thankful that folks like FP, and RS and others use there skills and knolage on this costume and create some of what they create, remaster what they have remasted and offered us up copys of there end result regardless of how it came to be. (I am just naming these too folks because they are commenting in this thread) Try making a prop from scratch and you will see what a large amount of effort, time and money goes into it. Even a hevy mod on a current one is no walk in the park. At the end of the day my, and many others costumes would not be possible with out what the prop makers on this site do. But keep in mind that very few of the things you know and love on your costume came to be out of a hunk of clay, they started from moded DP deluxes, measurements off screen used peices and other such things.

I think some folks seem to think that is recasting in the common sense of the word but in my eyes its just the art that created the pieces we have on our costume, be it clay, gypsum, metal, modded older sculpts, 3rd gen casts of mystery helmets... ect ect.

Just my 2 cents

Originally Posted by fettpride

There seriously need to be a correction here. And there are a few member that have even been debating this today, however I feel the need to point this out, yet again ... DEAD HORSE

I bought the molds bro. Not a cast. Didn't make a mold of a single cast. Therefore I did not "Recast" the helmet. I've produced "castings from said molds". There is a HUGE difference.

Like I said to Mirax, if you bought those molds from LFL then no prob, your covered man.

Does that make it a not so gray area where it comes to intellectual rights violations? Absolutely not. I've never disagreed that I'm in violation of this. But bro, let me just let ya in on a little secret ... so are YOU. Anyone who buys what we make, is partaking in intellectual rights violations. At least morally and ethically anyway For instance, as a cop, not only did I arrest the drug supplier, but also the buyer. Get it?

I agree.

But that leads me to something even more interesting. Why is it that in every thread started on this topic, it all comes down to bashing makers, whether or not they are legit or otherwise?

If the shoe fits..

Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?

There is always someone else FP, don't ever think of yourself as irreplacable, that applies to all aspects of life.

Now I'm not talking about you in this case, because to my knowledge, you've never purchased anything from me, but good grief bro? You've thrown my name around quite a bit today "just as an example" but it sure looks like you have a problem with me.

Thats correct, I have never bought anything from you.

eighteendelta, while Spidey could be a bit more tactful, the "threat" you are perceiving is only in your head. Stop playing the victim, realize that the approach you are taking, especially as a newcomer, does not work within this community, and try something different. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. It appears that you are doing exactly that. Suck up your pride a little and don't be so easily offended. Correction is not an attack. You have stepped on some toes but it is not beyond repair. While you perceive our members to be attacking you, they are actually making an effort to help you. Again, they may not be doing so in the optimal way, but that is clearly their intent.

As a further note in regard to LFL. As I mentioned earlier, we exist only due to LFL's generosity. If we were asked by LFL or a lincensee to stop the sale of particular items on TDH, we would comply immediately. If any of our members were to receive a C&D from LFL we would STRONGLY urge you to comply immediately. LFL is not required to issues a C&D. They can and will sue without warning. Any seller must weigh that risk and keep it in mind. It is one of the dangers we face in this hobby and should never take the privelages LFL extends to us for granted.

Again I want to apologize to the Board:thumbup....I tried to take it to PM....but oh well.

Originally Posted by evan4218

This is indeed a good example and one of the big reasons why only a very select few got a copy of your plug and why no more will ever see the light of day. Such a shame. But to a degree you must let go of said piece for the greater good meaning sharing it with other costumers. Much as you did with the ears.



This is a good point and one that I highlighted in my first post and my post in your cargo hold thread. Folks are so quick to cut hairs on the recasting topic when it comes to alot of the artists on this board but are often the first with there hands out as soon as a run starts on armor or a helmet they want.

______

I think I got a glimpse of a less civil version of this thread starting up in FPs thread and I wanted it moved over here, aired out, and wanted to see where it would truly go. Dead horse or not, there still seem to be lots of members who are a bit fuzzy on the boards stance on recasting.

The bottom line in my opinion is that we should be thankful that folks like FP, and RS and others use there skills and knolage on this costume and create some of what they create, remaster what they have remasted and offered us up copys of there end result regardless of how it came to be. (I am just naming these too folks because they are commenting in this thread) Try making a prop from scratch and you will see what a large amount of effort, time and money goes into it. Even a hevy mod on a current one is no walk in the park. At the end of the day my, and many others costumes would not be possible with out what the prop makers on this site do. But keep in mind that very few of the things you know and love on your costume came to be out of a hunk of clay, they started from moded DP deluxes, measurements off screen used peices and other such things.

I think some folks seem to think that is recasting in the common sense of the word but in my eyes its just the art that created the pieces we have on our costume, be it clay, gypsum, metal, modded older sculpts, 3rd gen casts of mystery helmets... ect ect.

Just my 2 cents

So in the end.. we can all agree that it's the community as a whole that will shun those "BloodSport Studios" from this board and feel sorry for those noobs for buying junk casts on the Ebay because they have not found TDH yet and continue to encourage newcomers to learn.
That in my opinion is TDH

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".

Not to completely derail things but I would love to hear more about this... I could be way offbase but this sounds a lot like one of those prop myths propagated by the TE crowd... That doesn't jive at all with typical LFL licensing. Their tack record is of licensing, for big bucks.. not granting someone "permission" to infringe on their copyright... Again, I could totally be off base but would love to hear more about this.

Originally Posted by Brak's Buddy

Not to completely derail things but I would love to hear more about this... I could be way offbase but this sounds a lot like one of those prop myths propagated by the TE crowd... That doesn't jive at all with typical LFL licensing. Their tack record is of licensing, for big bucks.. not granting someone "permission" to infringe on their copyright... Again, I could totally be off base but would love to hear more about this.

I agree, it doesn't seem to fit their history. It does sound a lot like an attempt by someone to pass off a recast for big$$$ and morally exculpate themselves.

-x

Originally Posted by Delta75

So in the end.. we can all agree that it's the community as a whole that will shun those "BloodSport Studios" from this board and feel sorry for those noobs for buying junk casts on the Ebay because they have not found TDH yet and continue to encourage newcomers to learn.
That in my opinion is TDH

I think "continuing to encourage newcomers" has been the theme of these kinds of threads in the last couple of days......

But I agree, in the end it's a good thing to revisit this Debate from time to time.

For me personnally, I want the "GOOD STUFF" in terms of props when building my FETT..... And last time I checked there weren't any really "great recasts" (if there is such a thing) on Ebay...All the Masters, Artists, and Prop builders for Fett are all members of THIS board already....So why bite the hand that feeds us because of a gray area....

Good thread.

Originally Posted by fettpride

I don't even make a Jet Pack for goodness sake.

So when are you gonna start working on this?

Originally Posted by Spideyfett

I think "continuing to encourage newcomers" has been the theme of these kinds of threads in the last couple of days......

But I agree, in the end it's a good thing to revisit this Debate from time to time.

For me personnally, I want the "GOOD STUFF" in terms of props when building my FETT..... And last time I checked there weren't any really "great recasts" (if there is such a thing) on Ebay...All the Masters, Artists, and Prop builders for Fett are all members of THIS board already....So why bite the hand that feeds us because of a gray area....

Good thread.

Spidey, keep in mind when you setup shop at something as big as C4 and advertise yourself where the entire audience "is your target audience". Your going to attract a TON of noobs. Is that bad? Well, it can be at sometimes but you never know when the next MOW will show up.

We all want the "Good Stuff" Spidey, but not at the cost of our dignity to creators with a god complex. I learned a long time ago in my fighting days, there is ALWAYS someone better than you.

Is there an elitest attitude at TDH? Of course there is and the new members see it most of all. Props are for sale in this community, knowledge shouldn't be.

This thread should have never been made.
We have had a few of these, and they always up bitter, why make more?

I would also submit the following articles for consideration in this discussion, since they seem to set the legal precedents.

http://www.starwars.com/collecting/n...s20061011.html

http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyr...?NoticeID=1910

We are going to try and stick to the topic this time right?

-x

Originally Posted by The Clayster

This thread should have never been made.
We have had a few of these, and they always up bitter, why make more?

Maybe some things just need to be said Clayster, you can't have thousands of people in one room and expect them all to think alike. A helathy debate usually brings out the truth. Whether some want it out or not.

dbl post

Originally Posted by Delta75

Maybe some things just need to be said Clayster, you can't have thousands of people in one room and expect them all to think alike. A helathy debate usually brings out the truth. Whether some want it out or not.

Who said I didnt want it out?
I am saying that this thread is going to start more arguments than it already has.

Originally Posted by Delta75

Is there an elitest attitude at TDH? Of course there is and the new members see it most of all. Props are for sale in this community, knowledge shouldn't be.

Nah..I used to think so....but after meeting a ton of fellow TDH'ers at C4 I have to say the whole Elitest thing has gone out the window for me...and is an old argument for Another Thread, not this one.

Besides half the stuff we say or post on this board gets misinterpreted.
Once you met people face to face...whole other ball game, trust me...and people I had issues with that I met at C4, we just laughed it off and had a drink or two...or three, or four.

Now back to the subject....Recasting.

Originally Posted by Spideyfett

Nah..I used to think so....but after meeting a ton of fellow TDH'ers at C4 I have to say the whole Elitest thing has gone out the window for me...and is an old argument for Another Thread, not this one.

Besides half the stuff we say or post on this board gets misinterpreted.
Once you met people face to face...whole other ball game, trust me...and people I had issues with that I met at C4, we just laughed it off and had a drink or two...or three, or four.

Now back to the subject....Recasting.

Almost everything I say on this board gets misinterpreted, I just get used to it.

Meeting everyone at CIV was awesome, also when I had random TDH'ers come up to me and say "whats up?"

Originally Posted by The Clayster

Almost everything I say on this board gets misinterpreted, I just get used to it.

Meeting everyone at CIV was awesome, also when I had random TDH'ers come up to me and say "whats up?"

Glad to met you to bro..

Originally Posted by Delta75

Spidey, keep in mind when you setup shop at something as big as C4 and advertise yourself where the entire audience "is your target audience". Your going to attract a TON of noobs. Is that bad? Well, it can be at sometimes but you never know when the next MOW will show up.

And that was the whole point of the booth at C4; attract new members. And with this influx of new members, we ALL need to remember to be patient with them and create a friendly and inviting environment.

Originally Posted by The Dent

And that was the whole point of the booth at C4; attract new members. And with this influx of new members, we ALL need to remember to be patient with them and create a friendly and inviting environment.

This has been my point from the beginning.

-x

Originally Posted by eighteendelta

This has been my point from the beginning.

-x

Well soemtimes that is hard, I know when I see someone doing something wrong, I dont really say "hey, maybe you might want to try....this alternative"

I kinda go "No, dont do that, you need to do this" and it comes off as I am saying I am better than they are, etc.

Originally Posted by Delta75

There is always someone else FP, don't ever think of yourself as irreplacable, that applies to all aspects of life.

Originally Posted by Delta75

We all want the "Good Stuff" Spidey, but not at the cost of our dignity to creators with a god complex. I learned a long time ago in my fighting days, there is ALWAYS someone better than you.

It's statements like this that perplex me What exactly gave you the idea that I feel I'm "Better" than anyone else? Is this simple "misinterpretation" of my board conduct or personality, or do you have some sort of personal beef with me? How can you make statements like "God Complex" and the like and expect that the guy on the receiving end won't take it as a "Baiting" insult? Lets address these statements ...

Originally Posted by Delta75

There is always someone else FP, don't ever think of yourself as irreplacable, that applies to all aspects of life.

This comes across like you feel you're actually better than someone else. Wiser at the very least. As if though you've got the answers to the "Meaning of life" or something. Almost like a Father would speak to his son? You really expect that I don't already know this? You don't even know me The last thing I need, is any life lessons from you my friend. I'm not your son. I'm a big boy, and have seen and lived my share. For you to preach like this, comes across as arrogant.

Originally Posted by Delta75

We all want the "Good Stuff" Spidey, but not at the cost of our dignity to creators with a god complex. I learned a long time ago in my fighting days, there is ALWAYS someone better than you.

God complex huh? Last time I checked, I put my pants on the same way you do. Unless of course we're talking about the days where my pants are so stiff from bondo and fiberglass resin that I have to stand them up and jump into them

Look, I know I'm expendable. What exactly ever gave you the impression otherwise? I know "There's always a bigger fish". And no matter where I go, there's always going to be someone that can slap me down. The same goes for you too

FP

Originally Posted by The Clayster

Well soemtimes that is hard, I know when I see someone doing something wrong, I dont really say "hey, maybe you might want to try....this alternative"

I kinda go "No, dont do that, you need to do this" and it comes off as I am saying I am better than they are, etc.

Yeah I come off a bit gruff, it's even worse in person. I'm not a good person, let alone better than anyone here, just to get that straight.

-x

FP, you have some serious guilt issues man. Move Along

And for the record, if I have a personal beef with someone, it will be discussed in person so that there is no miscommunication of feelings via typed words.

Here's my .2c on recasting.


If you want to keep stuff from being recast, don't sell it. Someone either through malicious intent or plain ingnorance will at some point copy your stuff (or attmept to). That is true.
But is that really the attitude you want people with access to great stuff to have? If so, then guess what. Those great items will never see the light of day and you'll have to make do with your janky innacurate scratch builds.

You see, only a small percent of this community has access to the good stuff and most of those people will never offer those highly sought after items for the fear of someone recasting. And the community suffers as a whole for it.

The only way anyone can offer anything of quality is if the prop community takes a stance to protect those who make these rare items available.
It's not whether you scratch build it or not that is important here. It is the person responsible for bringing the rare item into the populace that deserves protection for the item he is bringing because without him...

If you cannot have access to that great item, as much as it sucks, you have to bite your lip and suck it up. Maybe the next great item will be made available to you. However be mindful that your position on recasting ethics will place you in a catagory of whether or not you can be trusted.
That's a big part of the reason why some people get stuff and others don't.

And we are watching.

P.S.
Mirax, I believe you can recast soft goods as well by copying patterns of a sold soft good part. That's just as bad as dipping something in silicone. The same concerns I have of releasing a fabric part are the same ones I have for a resin piece.

AMEN!..Perfect post Gino....makes sense to me..

I think the big difference between the resin and soft parts is, that even to 'reverse engineer' a jumpsuit or ammo pouch, you still need a certain skill set to reproduce that item. With resin, anyone can watch a half hour DVD on casting then buy the supplies and make a garbage recast to sell cheap. Maybe I am wrong to think that was the thinking behind Mirax's statement. I agree that both are equally offensive and neither should be tolerated, I think the cost/benefits would push most unscrupulous people towards the hard parts when it comes to knockoffs.

-x

Originally Posted by Delta75

FP, you have some serious guilt issues man. Move Along

This is what I mean. You got it all figured out ...

Originally Posted by Delta75

And for the record, if I have a personal beef with someone, it will be discussed in person so that there is no miscommunication of feelings via typed words.

Thats the way it should be. But in a case like this thread, what should be civil discussion, can be tainted easily with colorful remarks such as the ones you've made. It sounds like "Baiting". Don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your personal opinions, just like everyone else. But sometimes, your personal opinion of another member isn't healthy durring a discussion like this. You could actually force your own opinion on someone new that may not have had the chance to make one for themselves yet. It can be interpreted as "flexing your keyboard muscles". Not a sign of a straight shooter that would rather clear the air face to face, or talk through their differences over a brew

FP

Originally Posted by fettpride

This is what I mean. You got it all figured out ...




Thats the way it should be. But in a case like this thread, what should be civil discussion, can be tainted easily with colorful remarks such as the ones you've made. It sounds like "Baiting". Don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your personal opinions, just like everyone else. But sometimes, your personal opinion of another member isn't healthy durring a discussion like this. You could actually force your own opinion on someone new that may not have had the chance to make one for themselves yet. It can be interpreted as "flexing your keyboard muscles". Not a sign of a straight shooter that would rather clear the air face to face, or talk through their differences over a brew

FP

Perhaps you could talk to some other board members about "flexing their keyboard muscles"? There was a great deal of that done in your defense, the overwhelming majority of it was from others. There seems to be an effort to overlook that from time to time. (No that's not an attack on the admins or mods)

I don't really want to continue this indefinitely, we eventually should think about an endpoint for all of this. I don't think we are going to all come to a single unified consensus on this topic or a lot of others for that matter. It's been good to air our grievances but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Costuming and having fun.

-x

Originally Posted by fettpride

Not a sign of a straight shooter that would rather clear the air face to face, or talk through their differences over a brew

FP

I look forward to our official introduction over that brew FP

Originally Posted by Delta75

I look forward to our official introduction over that brew FP

Now that there is the best thing I've heard in two days ! I'm all about it! First round on me

FP

Man, I love these threads. I wish I wasn't at work, so I could post an even longer response. I swear this is mostly on-topic...

Originally Posted by Gino

If you want to keep stuff from being recast, don't sell it.

Originally Posted by Gino

I believe you can recast soft goods as well by copying patterns of a sold soft good part. That's just as bad as dipping something in silicone. The same concerns I have of releasing a fabric part are the same ones I have for a resin piece.

It's disappointing to see members go in the direction of "my contribution to the community will be copied or otherwise re-purposed, maybe *gasp* without due credit to me, so I shouldn't contribute at all". I guess I have a bigger issue with the philosophy under which a lot of hardware parts are offered on TDH, in contrast to the way other useful contributions are made here.

Why do folks like wizardofflight contribute incredibly comprehensive armor and helmet templates? Why have I spent several weekends drawing ESB paint scratch templates? Why do people post helpful tips and techniques in progress threads? For example:

http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f23/new-batting-helmet-bucket-13420/

We do it so that TDH members can expand their skill base and multiply their talents. And so we can all make great costumes!

I don't have the time or the space to do sculpting or mold making (though I studied it in college), so I try to contribute to the SW fan community in other ways where I am capable. I'm generally against the idea of someone not receiving credit where it's due. However, people here should remember that the ultimate goal is that everyone here gets to make progress on their costumes, and everybody has the best resources to do so.

I'd rather see folks who make a hardware part here encourage other members to pick up the manufacture later. I'd rather see 30 people making aluminum parts, 30 people making armor and helmets, 30 people making soft parts, etc. based off of the best reference designs. Users like WOF (for example) enable that kind of propagation of ideas and skill.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I'll go back to drawing decals and fabric patterns and will continue posting what I make for everyone to use.

Originally Posted by Spideyfett

Glad to met you to bro..

That was awesome.

I am with Count Dookie. For me, it is more important that the few finds I have made are known by the general populous than the fact that I found them is known. I do get a bit irritated when others try to take credit for my efforts, but in general I just want the information out there and available so people can use it to make a better costume.

Originally Posted by [B

Gino][/B]
If you want to keep stuff from being recast, don't sell it.

Originally Posted by Count Dookie

It's disappointing to see members go in the direction of "my contribution to the community will be copied or otherwise re-purposed, maybe *gasp* without due credit to me, so I shouldn't contribute at all". I guess I have a bigger issue with the philosophy under which a lot of hardware parts are offered on TDH, in contrast to the way other useful contributions are made here.

If you ever see any of Gino's work you'll know why he doesn't want it floating around to just anyone. Even though his bucket was not "scrathbuilt" he did enough that it might as well have been.

Most of the time, when you see people only selling to a select few, it's because it is to people who have gained their trust. Can you blame them?

Also, we all know that none of us own the "true rights" to any of this stuff. No one is arguing that. But for people who are lucky enough to have obtained "the good stuff" to offer it to the populace, the only way they are going to continue to do that is if they feel that what they are bringing forth is going to be protected from mass distrubution. That's what it really boils down to.
Trust, and a feeling of security that they aren't just giving away their opportunity to sell or trade their special item for other things in the future.
If everyone has it, it will have lost it's special-ness, therefore losing its value, and therefore losing it's power to open doors for new acqisitions or selling value.

If you've never had a rare item (prop-wise), I'm sure it is difficult to understand the reasoning behind what I'm saying.
Trust me when I say that if your goal is to stay in this hobby and collect the rare coveted items, the only way that is going to happen is by realizing the importance of discretion, limited runs, and CONTROL over the distribution of the rare item to not fall into the hands of someone who is going to mass produce it.

You want these rare items to come available to you, they come with a price in the form of a recasting ethic. You can't have it both ways.
If you take shady means to get your trinket now, you might be serving yourself for the immediate, but ultimately will be doing a HUGE disservice for yourself later because no one will trust you to have any of their rare items.

The bringer forth of the rare item must be protected AS IF he were the original artist otherwise they never will bring them forth.

In my best soup nazi voice, "No super accurate rocket pack for you!"

WOW..

trust me dude...he has no guilt issues. FP is a good guy and has done great things for this community. i dont understand why people are attacking him.

lets "MOVE ALONG" and get back on topic

Originally Posted by Delta75

FP, you have some serious guilt issues man. Move Along

And for the record, if I have a personal beef with someone, it will be discussed in person so that there is no miscommunication of feelings via typed words.

Originally Posted by The Clayster

Almost everything I say on this board gets misinterpreted, I just get used to it.

Just what the heck is this supposed to mean?!? HUNH?!? HUNH?!?!!

J/K couldn't let that one go by

Cast away my friends, cast away. But don't recast away.

Wow last night we set a new record for the most members online at the same time.

Originally Posted by DarthMiller

WOW..

trust me dude...he has no guilt issues. FP is a good guy and has done great things for this community. i dont understand why people are attacking him.

lets "MOVE ALONG" and get back on topic

I'm pretty sure FP and I have already made things clear and have moved along Miller.