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  1. evan4218's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 2:30 PM - Recasting discussion #1

    stemming from the Jango Helmet auction thread I wanted to start a separate thread getting feedback from members here both old and new on your ideas, and feelings on recasting.

    Obviously the Admins do not condone or support recasting in any which way or form. That being said there are some types that I see as allowable. Such as the Mystery Helmets or Don Post castings. But for what ever reason some people still get a tad divided on that stuff.

    I can only use my self as an example but knowing what goes into buying molds and the right to use them isnt something to pass off as nothing. I paid over a grand for the rights to some G.I. Joe helmet molds that I produce and there is a reason I am protective of the rights. If you invest your time its the same as money and vise versa. You want folks to have enough respect to come to you if they want a copy and understand that your not a business but rather a hobbiest. This is why some things will only be available in limited quantities and for short times.

    I have never had real issues with the folks that offer augmented versions of the Mystery helmet castings because there is no owner to say its ok or its not, rather just that, a mysterycasting with very little info. They have tweeked them, reworked them and offered them to us so we have decent helmets to wear. I do however get irritated when they claim the helmet is something that it isnt. Once you rework something your artwork is now a part of it, and I think that new effort demands at least a tiny bit of respect.

    What really rubs me the wrong way though was the comment in the other thread that seemed to point at the idea that because something cost alot, it should be okay to recast it and offer it at a cheap price. Well, if you pay attention to the auctions on ebay with the "Junk" recasted helmets thats what you get when you do that. Junk! There is always someone who gets wide eyes and thinks they can make a buck quickly and makes a poor mold to make dupes.

    I want to keep the the quality makers making quality products and that goes with everyone we know and are use to on this board. If you want to try and offer something similar at a cheaper price, buy there molds or find a source piece that is acceptable to make castings from and offer them at the same quality for the same price.

    I would like to see constructive input from other members on this thread to get an idea of where peoples heads are at on this subject.

    I think we as a community some times take for granted folks like Ruffkins, ManofWar, and Fettpride like stores always offering these things we use on our costumes but if we were to all disrespect them and recast there parts and start to sell them, would we have the same basic thing cheaper? Most likely but we would loose them from the community and loose there quality that they bring.

    Thanks and I look forward to reading other members thoughts on this.
  2. I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 2:39 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #2

    I was eating an Ice cream cone, and as I was reading this, I dropped the cone.
    Not because of the post, but because of my stupidity.

    Now back on topic:

    Here on TDH I see some recasts being aceptable, and others being shunned on. If you dont like recastings, then dont make some recasts "OK" by your standards.

    and by that I mean anyone who does that, not Evan, I dont know if he does that, so I am not saying anything rude to him.

    Jeaze.
    Last edited by The Clayster; Jun 5, 2007 at 2:49 PM.
  3. slavefive's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 2:45 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #3

    ...yikes...this thread could get interesting...
  4. asok's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 2:47 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #4

    Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.
  5. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Jun 5, 2007, 2:50 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #5

    I think before this thread gets a full head of steam......the Question for me would be, Are we Just talking about the Mystery Helmets??..or over all "RECASTING"??
  6. drokkul's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 2:50 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #6

  7. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Jun 5, 2007, 2:51 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #7

    Quote asok said: View Post
    Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.
    Of course..

    Quote drokkul said: View Post
    LOL!!
  8. Laan's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 2:56 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #8

    This is something that people will never agree on. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts. The people who want to recast, let them. They will get what they deserve. It does ruin it for everyone else that respects the hard work put into it. Personally, all you (as in the individual) can do what you believe is right, good and fair.

    Not what I really want to say, but its short and sweet... like me .
  9. eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:01 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #9

    I think that the buyers are the ones who need to develop a healthy respect for the original works, yelling at them and insulting them doesn't do it. We cannot expect the recasters themselves to develop a consciences over their misdeeds.

    While I think there is a bit too much leniency on recasting on this board I also think some people need to read a little closer before looking for a reason to go off.

    I also think that some people are a bit quick to judge others based on their post count numbers or their sign up date, I can recall at least 4 times in the last month I've seen that come up as an issue. It's inappropriate.

    I think threatening to not make more helmets, props or anything else, shows the clearest intent of the whole drama. "I want people to stroke my ego and to tell me not to listen to the nay sayers", that's what that reaction screams to me. Hate me for saying it, but fine, don't make any more helmets, eat your losses on buying those molds, that's my feeling on the subject. I'm sure that wouldn't hurt BM's or SF's sales. Though I am sure neither of them would want you to quit, I have never seen either of them, in the admittedly short time I have been here, become irrational because two board members made inconsiderate remarks/jokes.

    I will admit that some of the posts that set the whole thing off were totally and absolutely inappropriate, but I think they were handled in an equally inappropriate manner. Neither of which,to me, is acceptable. While I personally will never see the need to support recasters or any other shady practices, nor do I see the need to support rude or inappropriate behavior or attitudes towards other board members, even the ignorant ones.

    -x
    Last edited by eighteendelta; Jun 5, 2007 at 3:22 PM. Reason: Now my run-on sentences are more clear, though still run-ons
  10. NikNak_aka's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:18 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #10

    Disclaimer: Please read the whole post before commenting.

    I think the members of this board for the most part will always want to get the best quality item from the best makers no matter what the circumstance.

    A lot of where recasting comes in is due to people who do not know any better. The first time fett costumer often buys a recast off of ebay not knowing that the real maker/artist was here on the boards offering the same item but at better quality. Most people that shop on ebay are looking for the best deal and tend not to read the fine print or not even understand what the fine print means.

    Unfortunately there will always be people looking to make a quick buck and they will recast something poorly and do a run on ebay. People will always buy them. But I think in the end it doesn’t hurt the artists here at TDH as much as we think.

    Keep in mind please this is only an opinion and I have no experience with selling items.

    But if you look at every time FP, as well as others, posts a run of a new or old item there is a huge response of people wanting to buy that item. Weather it be armor or buckets or gauntlets people always line up around the block be cause its from the man FP. Members and savvy costumers are always willing to pay top dollar for what they perceive to be the very best in this hobby. This is true with many of the artists here at TDH.

    As far as mystery buckets go I originally purchased a sgtfang bucket because I thought that was the best place to get one. I thought that was THE mystery helmet. I purchased a MS3 kit from MarrowSun because I really liked all the modifications that he did to the bucket and kit even though it is very similar to the sgtfang bucket in most respects. Both of those to me seem to be coming from the original artists and therefore did not seem wrong at all. Both sgtfang and marrowsun spent a considerable amount of time and effort crafting their bucket kits into what they are now. That to me makes them artists regardless of where the origins of the bucket lay.

    I also purchased a ILM Jango from FP, granted it was considered slightly less quality as a second but I did not care as it was an amazing opportunity to get the most accurate jango bucket possible for a very decent discount. I consider FP an artist as well not only for his crafting skills in creating his armor, modifying the MSH into the MSH2 but also for doing a considerable amount of work to cast the Jango buckets up in cold cast. Even on my slightly defective casting the care in the casting was evident.

    Another thing to consider about all these makers is that they have either the original molds of heavily modified versions of the original molds in their possession that they either did a lot of work to create or spent a lot of money to purchase. I think there is something to be said for that. Who owns the original Intellectual property aside and think much of the ownership and right to make runs goes with the molds themselves. If you sell your molds or purchase molds I would think its a safe assumption that you are also selling or assuming the right to make casts from the molds. That seems like a logical conclusion that most people would come to.

    I personally would never buy a recast if there was the original item available from the original artist. But items like the MR bucket will be limited, (plus I would never repaint an original one unless of course there were enough of them to purcahse 2) And since it has the "truest shape" I would not mind buying a decent recast to paint up.

    It truly all goes back to supply and demand. As well as the fact that people(for the most part) are cheap and dont want to spend alot of money normally. The true believers savvy costumers and most of the members on this board, I think, will continue to support the resident artists as best we can as long as they keep producing some of the best items availible.

    Sorry if I dragged this out too long and just went in a big circle but I felt this was the place to share my thoughts on the matter.

    Please keep in mind that this is all my personal opinion and not ment to offend anyone. Please feel free to PM me with all your angry comments, disagreements, praise fanfare ect....

    cheers,
    -Rob
    Last edited by NikNak_aka; Jun 5, 2007 at 3:24 PM.
  11. evan4218's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:19 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #11

    Quote Spideyfett said: View Post
    I think before this thread gets a full head of steam......the Question for me would be, Are we Just talking about the Mystery Helmets??..or over all "RECASTING"??
    Over all Recasting.

    Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.
    It is thus far, but be prepared for Strong opinions here. That is what I wanted, bur do step in if people are being out right disrespectful.

    and by that I mean anyone who does that, not Evan, I dont know if he does that, so I am not saying anything rude to him.
    I do not, and no offense taken, I respect your point of view and am glad you shared it. Thus the purpose of this thread, I wanted to see some non venomous posts and opinions on recasting as this is a topic that gets brought up all to often.

    Quote drokkul said: View Post
    That is awesome! And yes it could be viewed as that but I really wanted folks deeper thoughts then what have been shared and why. If you think recasting should be acceptable, why? If you think people who do it are terrible but you dont mind mystery recasts, why??? That kind of thing. Just an honest open discussion. And I may not get that from this thread or ever as it usually turns into a nasty mess, though I think ASOK was a bit premature to jump on here with a warning. But I think he should watch the thread just the same due to the history of the topic.

    Quote eighteendelta said: View Post
    While I think there is a bit too much leniency on recasting on this board I also think some people need to read a little closer before looking for a reason to go off. I think that the buyers are the ones who need to develop a healthy respect for the original works, yelling at them and insulting them doesn't do it. We cannot expect the recasters themselves to develop a consciences over their misdeeds. I also think that some people are a bit quick to judge others based on their post count numbers or their sign up date, I can recall at least 4 times in the last month I've seen that come up as an issue. It's inappropriate. I think threatening to not make more helmets, props or anything else, shows the clearest intent of the whole drama. "I want people to stroke my ego and to tell me not to listen to the nay sayers", that's what that reaction screams to me. Hate me for saying it, but fine, don't make any more helmets, eat your losses on buying those molds, that's my feeling on the subject. I will admit that some of the posts that set the whole thing off were totally and absolutely inappropriate, but I think they were handled in an equally inappropriate manner. Neither of which,to me, is acceptable. While I personally will never see the need to support recasters or any other shady practices, nor do I see the need to support rude or inappropriate behavior or attitudes towards other board members, even the ignorant ones.

    -x
    I would agree with some of what your saying. I think you cannot expect recasters to come to there senses. And folks are always to hard on noobs! But that being said are we not accountable for our words, even in ignorances?

    Keep in mind this thread is some what spawned due to what happened in the cargo hold yesterday but I dont want this to be a discussion about that. That thread has all that can be said, the poster apologized and stated his opinion and it should be left at that. I am not condoning any of the statements of that thread nor condimming them, but this thread is only related by subject matter and not a discussion on someone talking about the idea of recasting from that direct thread.
  12. eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:28 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #12

    Sorry, I cleaned up some of the incoherency of my post a bit. As far as beating a dead horse, some of us weren't here to swing at it the last time or two it came around, so I think Evan4218 is right and it's healthy to review opinions and stances on this topic, lest the lessons learned be lost to archived threads.

    (I am just the run-on king today)

    -x
  13. drokkul's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:39 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #13

    The only reason I poste dthe dead horse is because these threads always seem to turn out the same way.

    • Somebody questions others views on recasting
    • People respond
    • Somebody brings up Sgt Fang and MS
    • Mods warn to keep it nice and shiny
    • people start grumbling a bit
    • Someone posts the part of CoC regarding either recasting or being nice to one another
    • somebody posts a really inflammatory remark
    • others take offense
    • people take sides
    • it escalates
    • thread gets locked or deleted
    I hope it doesn't turn out this way, because I really like to see other peoples views on this as well.

    I know personally that I would hate to get something like this done to me. I know that when you put in a huge amount of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into something just to have it taken for granted or completely taken credit for by some one else it just (insert asterisks here).
  14. I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:41 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #14

    Quote drokkul said: View Post
    The only reason I poste dthe dead horse is because these threads always seem to turn out the same way.

    • Somebody questions others views on recasting
    • People respond
    • Somebody brings up Sgt Fang and MS
    • Mods warn to keep it nice and shiny
    • people start grumbling a bit
    • Someone posts the part of CoC regarding either recasting or being nice to one another
    • somebody posts a really inflammatory remark
    • others take offense
    • people take sides
    • it escalates
    • thread gets locked or deleted
    I hope it doesn't turn out this way, because I really like to see other peoples views on this as well.

    I know personally that I would hate to get something like this done to me. I know that when you put in a huge amount of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into something just to have it taken for granted or completely taken credit for by some one else it just (insert asterisks here).
    That is how any contraversial thread is.
  15. Admin Staff Star Wars Chick's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:46 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #15

    While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.
  16. tubachris85x's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 3:54 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #16

    Ive always dissaproved of recasting, because its technically stealing art and making a profit from it. I hate to say it, but as long as theres a business for items that people here craft and construct, theres ALWAYS going to be someone out there to screw everyone and the makers. Im sure that if I made something one day, and began selling copies, sure enough a few months to a year later, I can see someone selling crappy copies on ebay..

    -tubachris
    (Recasters are like havin an Ant problem, you try to kill them all, but they keep coming from out of no where)
  17. eighteendelta's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 4:01 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #17

    I have no problem with being harsh, I agree that it is sometime needed. I think there is no excuse for the accusation levied against FP, that 'recasting is OK since this is a recast to begin with' However, I think that moderating should be left to those designated as moderators, like yourself Mirax. There are members here who tend to want to be confrontational, and with their actions say 'look at me, I'm jumping to your defense', then it snowballs.

    Some people seem to be on the hunt for comments to construe as insulting so they can beat their chests and say 'I'm defending TDH community'.

    Not everyone is capable of addressing issues on the board in a manner that is both as harsh as necessary and not overly judgmental.

    These are just my opinions, no intentions to disrespect or attack anyone. It's hard to convey emotions in typed words.

    -x
  18. evan4218's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 4:03 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #18

    Quote Mirax H said: View Post
    While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.
    Awsome post, that is what I am talking about... some great opinions there. Thanks for sharing that Mirax
  19. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Jun 5, 2007, 4:10 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #19

    Quote eighteendelta said: View Post
    I have no problem with being harsh, I agree that it is sometime needed. I think there is no excuse for the accusation levied against FP, that 'recasting is OK since this is a recast to begin with' However, I think that moderating should be left to those designated as moderators, like yourself Mirax. There are members here who tend to want to be confrontational, and with their actions say 'look at me, I'm jumping to your defense', then it snowballs.

    Some people seem to be on the hunt for comments to construe as insulting so they can beat their chests and say 'I'm defending TDH community'.

    Not everyone is capable of addressing issues on the board in a manner that is both as harsh as necessary and not overly judgmental.

    These are just my opinions, no intentions to disrespect or attack anyone. It's hard to convey emotions in typed words.

    -x
    I'm confused, seriously...Are you still talking about the other thread in the Cargo hold?? or Recasting??
    Last edited by Spideyfett; Jun 5, 2007 at 6:29 PM.
  20. Admin Staff Star Wars Chick's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 4:21 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #20

    Quote evan4218 said: View Post
    Awsome post, that is what I am talking about... some great opinions there. Thanks for sharing that Mirax
    You're welcome. Just hoping I can help set the trend for what you are after, a civilized discussion and opinion thread.
  21. NikNak_aka's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 4:29 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #21

    What am I chopped liver :P
  22. bobagoat's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 4:42 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #22

    ...
    ...

    And that is why I feel lemon meringue is the greatest type of pie in the pie family!
  23. Wes is offline Wes
    Jun 5, 2007, 4:52 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #23

    I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

    I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

    Lets take SGB for example #1

    1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

    Lets take FP for example #2

    2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
    "Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

    My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

    Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

    From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.
  24. Admin Staff Star Wars Chick's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 4:58 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #24

    Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

    Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

    So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".
  25. I helped at SDCC '08 The Clayster's Avatar
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    Jun 5, 2007, 5:02 PM - Re: Recasting discussion #25

    Quote Delta75 said: View Post
    I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

    I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

    Lets take SGB for example #1

    1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

    Lets take FP for example #2

    2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
    "Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

    My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

    Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

    From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.
    I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

    I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

    And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
    I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.

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