Recasting discussion

stemming from the Jango Helmet auction thread I wanted to start a separate thread getting feedback from members here both old and new on your ideas, and feelings on recasting.

Obviously the Admins do not condone or support recasting in any which way or form. That being said there are some types that I see as allowable. Such as the Mystery Helmets or Don Post castings. But for what ever reason some people still get a tad divided on that stuff.

I can only use my self as an example but knowing what goes into buying molds and the right to use them isnt something to pass off as nothing. I paid over a grand for the rights to some G.I. Joe helmet molds that I produce and there is a reason I am protective of the rights. If you invest your time its the same as money and vise versa. You want folks to have enough respect to come to you if they want a copy and understand that your not a business but rather a hobbiest. This is why some things will only be available in limited quantities and for short times.

I have never had real issues with the folks that offer augmented versions of the Mystery helmet castings because there is no owner to say its ok or its not, rather just that, a mysterycasting with very little info. They have tweeked them, reworked them and offered them to us so we have decent helmets to wear. I do however get irritated when they claim the helmet is something that it isnt. Once you rework something your artwork is now a part of it, and I think that new effort demands at least a tiny bit of respect.

What really rubs me the wrong way though was the comment in the other thread that seemed to point at the idea that because something cost alot, it should be okay to recast it and offer it at a cheap price. Well, if you pay attention to the auctions on ebay with the "Junk" recasted helmets thats what you get when you do that. Junk! There is always someone who gets wide eyes and thinks they can make a buck quickly and makes a poor mold to make dupes.

I want to keep the the quality makers making quality products and that goes with everyone we know and are use to on this board. If you want to try and offer something similar at a cheaper price, buy there molds or find a source piece that is acceptable to make castings from and offer them at the same quality for the same price.

I would like to see constructive input from other members on this thread to get an idea of where peoples heads are at on this subject.

I think we as a community some times take for granted folks like Ruffkins, ManofWar, and Fettpride like stores always offering these things we use on our costumes but if we were to all disrespect them and recast there parts and start to sell them, would we have the same basic thing cheaper? Most likely but we would loose them from the community and loose there quality that they bring.

Thanks and I look forward to reading other members thoughts on this.

I was eating an Ice cream cone, and as I was reading this, I dropped the cone.
Not because of the post, but because of my stupidity.

Now back on topic:

Here on TDH I see some recasts being aceptable, and others being shunned on. If you dont like recastings, then dont make some recasts "OK" by your standards.

and by that I mean anyone who does that, not Evan, I dont know if he does that, so I am not saying anything rude to him.

Jeaze.

...yikes...this thread could get interesting...

Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.

I think before this thread gets a full head of steam......the Question for me would be, Are we Just talking about the Mystery Helmets??..or over all "RECASTING"?? :?

http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif

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Originally Posted by asok

Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.

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Of course..:thumbsup

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Originally Posted by drokkul

http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif

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LOL!!:lol

This is something that people will never agree on. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts. The people who want to recast, let them. They will get what they deserve. It does ruin it for everyone else that respects the hard work put into it. Personally, all you (as in the individual) can do what you believe is right, good and fair.

Not what I really want to say, but its short and sweet... like me :).

I think that the buyers are the ones who need to develop a healthy respect for the original works, yelling at them and insulting them doesn't do it. We cannot expect the recasters themselves to develop a consciences over their misdeeds.

While I think there is a bit too much leniency on recasting on this board I also think some people need to read a little closer before looking for a reason to go off.

I also think that some people are a bit quick to judge others based on their post count numbers or their sign up date, I can recall at least 4 times in the last month I've seen that come up as an issue. It's inappropriate.

I think threatening to not make more helmets, props or anything else, shows the clearest intent of the whole drama. "I want people to stroke my ego and to tell me not to listen to the nay sayers", that's what that reaction screams to me. Hate me for saying it, but fine, don't make any more helmets, eat your losses on buying those molds, that's my feeling on the subject. I'm sure that wouldn't hurt BM's or SF's sales. Though I am sure neither of them would want you to quit, I have never seen either of them, in the admittedly short time I have been here, become irrational because two board members made inconsiderate remarks/jokes.

I will admit that some of the posts that set the whole thing off were totally and absolutely inappropriate, but I think they were handled in an equally inappropriate manner. Neither of which,to me, is acceptable. While I personally will never see the need to support recasters or any other shady practices, nor do I see the need to support rude or inappropriate behavior or attitudes towards other board members, even the ignorant ones.

-x

Disclaimer: Please read the whole post before commenting.

I think the members of this board for the most part will always want to get the best quality item from the best makers no matter what the circumstance.

A lot of where recasting comes in is due to people who do not know any better. The first time fett costumer often buys a recast off of ebay not knowing that the real maker/artist was here on the boards offering the same item but at better quality. Most people that shop on ebay are looking for the best deal and tend not to read the fine print or not even understand what the fine print means.

Unfortunately there will always be people looking to make a quick buck and they will recast something poorly and do a run on ebay. People will always buy them. But I think in the end it doesn’t hurt the artists here at TDH as much as we think.

Keep in mind please this is only an opinion and I have no experience with selling items.

But if you look at every time FP, as well as others, posts a run of a new or old item there is a huge response of people wanting to buy that item. Weather it be armor or buckets or gauntlets people always line up around the block be cause its from the man FP. Members and savvy costumers are always willing to pay top dollar for what they perceive to be the very best in this hobby. This is true with many of the artists here at TDH.

As far as mystery buckets go I originally purchased a sgtfang bucket because I thought that was the best place to get one. I thought that was THE mystery helmet. I purchased a MS3 kit from MarrowSun because I really liked all the modifications that he did to the bucket and kit even though it is very similar to the sgtfang bucket in most respects. Both of those to me seem to be coming from the original artists and therefore did not seem wrong at all. Both sgtfang and marrowsun spent a considerable amount of time and effort crafting their bucket kits into what they are now. That to me makes them artists regardless of where the origins of the bucket lay.

I also purchased a ILM Jango from FP, granted it was considered slightly less quality as a second but I did not care as it was an amazing opportunity to get the most accurate jango bucket possible for a very decent discount. I consider FP an artist as well not only for his crafting skills in creating his armor, modifying the MSH into the MSH2 but also for doing a considerable amount of work to cast the Jango buckets up in cold cast. Even on my slightly defective casting the care in the casting was evident.

Another thing to consider about all these makers is that they have either the original molds of heavily modified versions of the original molds in their possession that they either did a lot of work to create or spent a lot of money to purchase. I think there is something to be said for that. Who owns the original Intellectual property aside and think much of the ownership and right to make runs goes with the molds themselves. If you sell your molds or purchase molds I would think its a safe assumption that you are also selling or assuming the right to make casts from the molds. That seems like a logical conclusion that most people would come to.

I personally would never buy a recast if there was the original item available from the original artist. But items like the MR bucket will be limited, (plus I would never repaint an original one unless of course there were enough of them to purcahse 2) And since it has the "truest shape" I would not mind buying a decent recast to paint up.

It truly all goes back to supply and demand. As well as the fact that people(for the most part) are cheap and dont want to spend alot of money normally. The true believers savvy costumers and most of the members on this board, I think, will continue to support the resident artists as best we can as long as they keep producing some of the best items availible. ;)

Sorry if I dragged this out too long and just went in a big circle but I felt this was the place to share my thoughts on the matter.

Please keep in mind that this is all my personal opinion and not ment to offend anyone. Please feel free to PM me with all your angry comments, disagreements, praise fanfare ect.... :D

cheers,
-Rob

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Originally Posted by Spideyfett

I think before this thread gets a full head of steam......the Question for me would be, Are we Just talking about the Mystery Helmets??..or over all "RECASTING"?? :?

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Over all Recasting. :)

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Let's please keep this civil or I will lock this post.

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It is thus far, but be prepared for Strong opinions here. That is what I wanted, bur do step in if people are being out right disrespectful. :)

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and by that I mean anyone who does that, not Evan, I dont know if he does that, so I am not saying anything rude to him.

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I do not, and no offense taken, I respect your point of view and am glad you shared it. Thus the purpose of this thread, I wanted to see some non venomous posts and opinions on recasting as this is a topic that gets brought up all to often.

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Originally Posted by drokkul

http://www.dbstalk.com/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif

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That is awesome! And yes it could be viewed as that but I really wanted folks deeper thoughts then what have been shared and why. If you think recasting should be acceptable, why? If you think people who do it are terrible but you dont mind mystery recasts, why??? That kind of thing. Just an honest open discussion. And I may not get that from this thread or ever as it usually turns into a nasty mess, though I think ASOK was a bit premature to jump on here with a warning. But I think he should watch the thread just the same due to the history of the topic.

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Originally Posted by eighteendelta

While I think there is a bit too much leniency on recasting on this board I also think some people need to read a little closer before looking for a reason to go off. I think that the buyers are the ones who need to develop a healthy respect for the original works, yelling at them and insulting them doesn't do it. We cannot expect the recasters themselves to develop a consciences over their misdeeds. I also think that some people are a bit quick to judge others based on their post count numbers or their sign up date, I can recall at least 4 times in the last month I've seen that come up as an issue. It's inappropriate. I think threatening to not make more helmets, props or anything else, shows the clearest intent of the whole drama. "I want people to stroke my ego and to tell me not to listen to the nay sayers", that's what that reaction screams to me. Hate me for saying it, but fine, don't make any more helmets, eat your losses on buying those molds, that's my feeling on the subject. I will admit that some of the posts that set the whole thing off were totally and absolutely inappropriate, but I think they were handled in an equally inappropriate manner. Neither of which,to me, is acceptable. While I personally will never see the need to support recasters or any other shady practices, nor do I see the need to support rude or inappropriate behavior or attitudes towards other board members, even the ignorant ones.

-x

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I would agree with some of what your saying. I think you cannot expect recasters to come to there senses. And folks are always to hard on noobs! But that being said are we not accountable for our words, even in ignorances?

Keep in mind this thread is some what spawned due to what happened in the cargo hold yesterday but I dont want this to be a discussion about that. That thread has all that can be said, the poster apologized and stated his opinion and it should be left at that. I am not condoning any of the statements of that thread nor condimming them, but this thread is only related by subject matter and not a discussion on someone talking about the idea of recasting from that direct thread.

Sorry, I cleaned up some of the incoherency of my post a bit. As far as beating a dead horse, some of us weren't here to swing at it the last time or two it came around, so I think Evan4218 is right and it's healthy to review opinions and stances on this topic, lest the lessons learned be lost to archived threads.

(I am just the run-on king today)

-x

The only reason I poste dthe dead horse is because these threads always seem to turn out the same way.

• Somebody questions others views on recasting
• People respond
• Somebody brings up Sgt Fang and MS
• Mods warn to keep it nice and shiny
• people start grumbling a bit
• Someone posts the part of CoC regarding either recasting or being nice to one another
• somebody posts a really inflammatory remark
• others take offense
• people take sides
• it escalates
• thread gets locked or deleted

I hope it doesn't turn out this way, because I really like to see other peoples views on this as well.

I know personally that I would hate to get something like this done to me. I know that when you put in a huge amount of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into something just to have it taken for granted or completely taken credit for by some one else it just (insert asterisks here).

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Originally Posted by drokkul

The only reason I poste dthe dead horse is because these threads always seem to turn out the same way.

• Somebody questions others views on recasting
• People respond
• Somebody brings up Sgt Fang and MS
• Mods warn to keep it nice and shiny
• people start grumbling a bit
• Someone posts the part of CoC regarding either recasting or being nice to one another
• somebody posts a really inflammatory remark
• others take offense
• people take sides
• it escalates
• thread gets locked or deleted

I hope it doesn't turn out this way, because I really like to see other peoples views on this as well.

I know personally that I would hate to get something like this done to me. I know that when you put in a huge amount of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into something just to have it taken for granted or completely taken credit for by some one else it just (insert asterisks here).

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That is how any contraversial thread is.

While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

Ive always dissaproved of recasting, because its technically stealing art and making a profit from it. I hate to say it, but as long as theres a business for items that people here craft and construct, theres ALWAYS going to be someone out there to screw everyone and the makers. Im sure that if I made something one day, and began selling copies, sure enough a few months to a year later, I can see someone selling ****** copies on ebay..

-tubachris
(Recasters are like havin an Ant problem, you try to kill them all, but they keep coming from out of no where)

I have no problem with being harsh, I agree that it is sometime needed. I think there is no excuse for the accusation levied against FP, that 'recasting is OK since this is a recast to begin with' However, I think that moderating should be left to those designated as moderators, like yourself Mirax. There are members here who tend to want to be confrontational, and with their actions say 'look at me, I'm jumping to your defense', then it snowballs.

Some people seem to be on the hunt for comments to construe as insulting so they can beat their chests and say 'I'm defending TDH community'.

Not everyone is capable of addressing issues on the board in a manner that is both as harsh as necessary and not overly judgmental.

These are just my opinions, no intentions to disrespect or attack anyone. It's hard to convey emotions in typed words.

-x

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Originally Posted by Mirax H

While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

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Awsome post, that is what I am talking about... some great opinions there. Thanks for sharing that Mirax

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Originally Posted by eighteendelta

I have no problem with being harsh, I agree that it is sometime needed. I think there is no excuse for the accusation levied against FP, that 'recasting is OK since this is a recast to begin with' However, I think that moderating should be left to those designated as moderators, like yourself Mirax. There are members here who tend to want to be confrontational, and with their actions say 'look at me, I'm jumping to your defense', then it snowballs.

Some people seem to be on the hunt for comments to construe as insulting so they can beat their chests and say 'I'm defending TDH community'.

Not everyone is capable of addressing issues on the board in a manner that is both as harsh as necessary and not overly judgmental.

These are just my opinions, no intentions to disrespect or attack anyone. It's hard to convey emotions in typed words.

-x

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I'm confused, seriously...:?Are you still talking about the other thread in the Cargo hold?? or Recasting??:?

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Originally Posted by evan4218

Awsome post, that is what I am talking about... some great opinions there. Thanks for sharing that Mirax

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You're welcome. Just hoping I can help set the trend for what you are after, a civilized discussion and opinion thread.

What am I chopped liver :P :D ;)

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And that is why I feel lemon meringue is the greatest type of pie in the pie family!

I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

Lets take SGB for example #1

1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

Lets take FP for example #2

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.

:lol Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".

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Originally Posted by Delta75

I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

Lets take SGB for example #1

1. SGB creates a mold from scratch, hand built from a block of clay, sticks or whatever, he cast it and sell copies. Now "recaster guy" recasts his "Original Creation" and sells copies. "Recaster guy" should be banned from every prop forum on the planet.

Lets take FP for example #2

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

From this point, I think everyone should look back to other posts regarding you as a person and whether you will support "Recaster Guy" in either example.

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I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.

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Originally Posted by Mirax H

:lol Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

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I'm like Nostradamus or something

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Originally Posted by Delta75

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

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I think the difference is that FP paid somebody for "rights" to the molds. And probably a pretty handsome amount.

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Originally Posted by Mirax H

:lol Here comes the COC quote on recasting:

Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting.

So, the difference between FP and the recaster guy in scenario #2 is that FP (if you are referring to the Jango Molds) purchased the molds and he the rights to cast them so it is technically not "recasting".

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I wouldn't expect any less that to be followed up by you Mirax ;)

I'm not bashing FP TDH'ers, just using him as an example. If FP bought those molds from LFL then yes, he has the same rights as SGB in Example #1. Just as Evan with the Cobra lids has the same rights as SGB does.

But in the end, it all comes back to each person, as Mirax said, will you support "recaster guy" in either example.

I cannot be more agree ...

This is what I think... as a costumer... and as a buyer... (cause I'm not a prop maker at all... no really idea how to do it).

As a costumer... I start a project... and need some parts. I always use to want the best as possible, and I try to do my best to get the best one. Off course, I prefer to get everything from the original makers, I hate recast, they are a lack of respect to the original makers, and also they use to lost accuracy. Those are my 2 main reasons why to buy everything from origin and not recast. I'd never doubt about get an original piece or a recast one (even if the recasted are cheaper)...

BUT...

What would you do, if the piece you want is not available from the original source, you want it soooo badly ... and the only way to get it is buy a recast of that piece you want ??? You dont have other choice to get what you want (ok, we could make it, or get another one... but if you really want that one.. what would you do) ?

With this I'm not defending recast... I really hate it... but I feel the same as Mirax... If the original maker makes them available to all the people interested (all he can off course), that way the maker would KILL the recasters, because would be a fight between ORIGNAL vs COPY... (there is no doubt for me), so everybody would be happy... and recaster wouldnt even think about recast somethign that is available...

A simple example... Who would be so stupid to recast a FP Boba armor, when he is selling it for an amazing price...??? You can get it NOW, the price is sooo great, and is the same maker, 1st generation, absolutely perfect... So, a recast would be really stupid...

That is what I think should be done to finally "kill" the recasters ... the one and only way...

But well, I may be wrong... that's just how I see this "prop/costuming" world :$:$:$ I wish everything could be a little easier for everybody... prop makers, buyers-cu/ostomers, etc...

Ben.

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Originally Posted by Mirax H

While I know that eighteendelta felt some of the remarks in the other thread were rather harsh, I think it goes to show the type of stand that people here take on recasting. It is taken very seriously and is not a matter to joke about. Now, that being said. I think that anyone in the prop community that produces an item that is able to be recast (the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this) has to do so knowing that SOMEONE is going to recast that item eventually. Period. It is what I would call an acceptable risk. If you are willing to make an item and produce multiples of that item to sell them to other members, then you just have to know that it will be recast. As NikNak said, it is the law of supply and demand. Just as FP is letting this law govern the pricing on his helmet, it also governs whether or not recasters will exist and profit. So long as there are people that want an item, especially if it is not readily available or is out of the price range for the average Joe, it's going to be recast. My very best advice to prop makers is to make as many as you possibly can on your first shot, make them all available at once, and make as much as you can as quickly as you can to recoup your costs and make a little as well before it gets recast. I just simply think there is no way around getting your item recast if it is an in demand item aside from just never making it available. Now, what can we do as a community? Basically what we are doing here. Saying, we won't condone recasting. That we won't allow these items to be sold here. That we ourselves won't recast and won't purchase recast items. Can we control the rest of the world? No, but we can certainly do our very best to prevent it from happening here.

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The never ending debate.

I think Mirax and tubachris summed it up best. To paraphrase:

Casters: Create at your own risk. It's someone else's intellectual property.

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Originally Posted by The Clayster

I agree with that, but some recasters are shunned, and others are praised here, and I think that is weird.

I know a recaster, and man his stuff is bad, he will recast an action figure...if he got his hands on a fridge, he would make it in solid resin.

And that is the type of people I dont like recasting.
I know some recasts are considered "OK" but since a lot of people on this board hate anything to do with recasting, but think the "OK" ones are fine, I just dont get that.

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That noob has recasted action figures and tried to sell them to us. He even tried to make a trophy using a Stormtrooper figure and a spraypaint cap.

Not trying to starting an Argument.
I agree with almost All of what Mirax said. Not Knocking you Mirax, your Post is Excellent.
The only part I don't agree with the part about "the ones doing soft parts don't have to worry about this". I don't think this is Entirely true.
Say you decide to make something like Ammo Belts or Jumpsuits or whatever.
You spend Hours and Hours researching, measuring, making patterns. Spend lots of Money building prototypes and tweeking them to get the Best, most accurate product to offer to your fellow builders.
You offer them only to have someone buy one, take it apart, findout how you made it , use it as a pattern and offer it for sale. To me this is also a "Form" of recasting. While it may not be a Direct "Cast" of your item, They have still profited off of your hard work.
This is only My opinion and No Disrespect ment to Mirax or anyone else.
As for the Examples I'm speaking hypothetically since I'm a Buyer not a Maker. Couldn't sew to save my life! :lol
I am Not a supporter of Recasting. Having said that, I did buy a recasted copy of a DP Deluxe Vader helmet. So does that make me a Hypocrite?
Maybe. But, I also bought a Bust off of ebay that was supposedly bought from and made by a Very Talented sculpter on the RPF. The picture in the Auction showed the bust and it was primered. When I received it, it wasn't primered had never been primered. It had bits of light blue silicone mold stuck in the pores of the skin and hair. Alot of tiny air bubbles and a big Fugly seam on the back of the head. I took pictures of it and sent it to the Original sculpter. He confirmed that it was indeed a Recast and was Understandingly upset.
I did not keep it, but I didn't get rid of it either. I Destroyed it. I took pictures of it and emailed it to the person I bought it from and let them know that the Sculpter was aware of what he was doing. No more have been offered on Ebay.

Having been on several Forums for a long time I've noticed that Star Wars Fans, including Myself, are sticklers for detail. They want everything as Accurate as possible. And if it has somehow touched an Original somewhere down the line, all the Better.

I think if you take a copyrighted item, change it somewhat and offer casts or Recasts of it, you shouldn't get so Upset when someone does the same to you. Just my personal opinion. All you've done is take an existing item and moddified it. It isn't an Original work that you created. Yes you may have spent alot of time and even money to alter the piece, but in the end it still isn't your Original Creation

But, if you Make an Original Item (gauntlets, helmets, armor, busts,etc...)
that you made from scratch using your talents that it should not be Recast.
Nor do I think anyone should knowingly buy a recast of this kind.

I think alot of the problem with recasts on ebay is the Fact that there are thousands of Collectors and Fans that don't know about forums like TDH and the RPF. so there only outlet for these types of items is Ebay.

Hopefully this long post makes since to somebody. I'm not sure if I got my point accross or not.
Again, I'm not trying to tick anyone off, these are My Opinions Only and that is what was asked for.

General Grievous

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

I just dont understand what good can a thread like this bring? Not slamming you evan4218, I promise.
I feel like this has been hashed out several times and comes with the same conclusion over and over. Some do some dont. That choice is up the the individual. Word of mouth is a great thing. I know the prop community is a tight bunch. If someone thinks or knows someone is a recaster it will get around. It will be harder for that person to recast.
We all have our own opinions. We will not always agree. But that is what makes each and everyone of us unique. But to bring this up again will certainly leave people upset, angry and possible turn new and experienced THD'rs away. Just would hate to see that.
My opinion, mine only. No disrespect intended. Made anyone mad, send me a pm. I dont mind.
Peace love and happiness

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

---

...wowzers!!!!! :suprise

...what he said :cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

---

That's a lot of interesting stuff I did not know. Thank you hippo, you're an informative fellow. I have to concur with you on a great deal of what you say. I guess I need to do some more history digging on this topic.

-x

This is one reason Myself and others steer caution on letting stuff out. If you assume the risk of making something don't let it out and make darn sure you trust who you let have it. One of the reasons I'm having second thoughts on letting the rocket pack is the recasting potential. I know the ears I had made were probably recasted the second they hit a certain fews (no one in particular) hands but if they recast it and claim it as their own resculpt or the new and improved version only to capitalize off of it, that is lowest of low in my book.

I let the ears out as a test to see what does happen to them before I let other stuff out. Overall I think folks have been very good about it on here I don't recall anyone ever recasting FP but then again I may be wrong. Also, what happens if you copy a Sgt Fang helmet he bought it off EBAY and has no rights to it perse' is it just an honor thing that stops that (sorry, I couldn't think of a good example so I picked on Sarge).

Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

what i find interesting in this whole debacle are the casters who are exonnerated because they have been casting for a long time and the gray area.

so as i understand the whole recasting of DP, MR, Screen Used, Hybrids, Scratch, etc... as follows:

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".
The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.
from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

my personal favorite, hybrids. you take a mystery helmet, change it to a ralph mcquarrie boba fett concept and wham-o. yours. so how much do you have to change in order to make it your original work and say i did not recast this helmet? its original

Scratch made. enough said. even though i am sure that a representation is still casting/recasting someone elses work.

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

---

exactly.

Read the CoC....

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NikNak_aka

Read the CoC....

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

---

So some people still support recasters, even though they all are against it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Clayster

So some people still support recasters, even though they all are against it?

---

That's what it sounds like.

-x

I'm looking for a helmet and don't know who to buy from.
Which is the best?
Who has the best cast ?
Who dose the best work?
What it comes down to for me (new guy).
What I like ,What I can afford. And reseach on the Dented Helmet.
And I have read a lot of threads to day still trying to decide on which one to buy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jango and Zam

I'm looking for a helmet and don't know who to buy from.
Which is the best?
Who has the best cast ?
Who dose the best work?
What it comes down to for me (new guy).
What I like ,What I can afford. And reseach on the Dented Helmet.
And I have read a lot of threads to day still trying to decide on which one to buy.

---

Big question.
Hotly debated.
Some issues people are going to ask are things like what size is your head? or how tall are you?
Price range?
Plan on painting yourself or are you looking for a finished helmet?
If you get a kit form you can still pay someone else to paint/weather it.
There are other things but I will leave it to one of the more experienced members to carry it from here.

This probably isn't the best thread to address this question as well. Try the Boba helmet section if that's appropriate or the Jango section if that's appropriate.

-x

"The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before."

if you say this then i am free to decide (cranberries) but then why do they have a recasting rule. to me it sounds like a double standard. you cant recast here, dont try to sell a recast but YOU decide wether or not you want to buy it. that sounds like a revovling door.

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

to me it says exactely what is says. if you copy ones work, it is recasting. if you copy a members work that is recasting and not tolerated. so to me it states 2 recasting issues. companies and members.

i would like the dent to chime in. i am very curious on his take.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

so its ok to recast a DP whatever because some guy has like 2000 posts, comments on everything, and DP helmets are not being made anymore and he is "grandfathered in"? it is a recasted helmet from time to time. i have seen a post in the cargo hold here with no mention as to the recasting rule set forth by this forum and the helmet is sold openly. interesting.

---

Hippo Clone, while you have a number of very valid points and bring up issues that every member should carefully consider, you appear to be confused in regard to TDH's statement in the CoC in regard to recasting.

In your example above, the DP helmet IS a recast as defined by TDH's CoC. The problem lies in your expectation of a reaction from the administration to the helmet being a recast. Your assumption that nothing is done due to the member selling it having a high post count is erroneous. There is no special treatment because a member posts often and there is no "grandfathering in" on a board level. Whether a senior member or a newbie made this sale, it would be left up to the members to decide if they wish to support this form of recasting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

MR, because they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets? i love this because i have seen from time to time one for sale HERE (the E3 Clone Helmet) but nothing from the admin staff. clearly against the forum rules. interesting.

---

Again, there is no argument that the helmet in question is a recast. Again your assumption that the sale is allowed because "they have the worst customer satisfaction, extended release dates, and they are no longer going to make star wars helmets" is incorrect. And again, it is left to the members to decide whether they will support this form of recasting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

The infamous Mystery Helmet, the basis for everyone who wants a boba fett helmet. screen used. this helmet has been recasted to death, whos is it? so someone cleans up a copy, rounds the dome a little, crisps up the corners, casts it as his. no rebuttle. but because this has been going on for such a long time; admin looks the other way? hmmm.

---

Incorrect again. The administration is not "looking the other way." At this point I feel like a broken record, but just to make sure there is no cofusion, mystery casting are recasts. It is left to the members to decide whether they will support this form of recasting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

from my understanding, several board members "bought" the rights to make casts of a supposdenly SU prop and is now able to make copies. and i love the comments, oh he paid alot. so he got permission from whom? George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnstone?

---

I have never entirely understood this myself in regard to anything other than one sculptor selling the rights to his sculpt to someone else. Why anyone would pay for "rights" to anyone other than the original sculptor is very confusing because the seller doesn't actually have the authority to grant such rights. This seems to be extremely prevalent in the strormtrooper armor and helmet circles but fortunately is not as prevalent here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

so my question is when does the recasting rule apply? you cant be all, some, or none. dont get me wrong, i love seeing the work and and [getting] in on a run. but if you are going to quote the scripture, then it should be enforced 100% of the time or take it away or give it a sub paragraph.

---

From what you have said it seems that you believe that there is some type of punishment for anyone who makes or sells a recast item. This is not the case. Although it has been posted previously, the recasting rule states:

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

NinNak_aka nailed it when he posted:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NikNak_aka

Read the CoC....
To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before.

---

I am not sure how we can be more clear or concise than that. You may not agree with that stance, and that is ok, but from previous experience, we feel this is the best approach.

D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

"The dent allows those recasts on the cargo hold because it lets us the users decide for ourselves what is right and wrong to purchase. I believe that has been stated many times before."

if you say this then i am free to decide (cranberries) but then why do they have a recasting rule. to me it sounds like a double standard. you cant recast here, dont try to sell a recast but YOU decide wether or not you want to buy it. that sounds like a revovling door.

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

to me it says exactely what is says. if you copy ones work, it is recasting. if you copy a members work that is recasting and not tolerated. so to me it states 2 recasting issues. companies and members.

i would like the dent to chime in. i am very curious on his take.

---

Just finished commenting on your earlier post, but let me clarify based on what you have written here.

The first sentence of the recasting "rule" is indeed a statement. It defines what is considered a recast item here at TDH. While this statement defines a recast, it does not place a judgement on a recast item, good or bad. This applies to any recast item, be it from a studio, a licensee, or an individual.

The second sentence states that this community does not support the recasting of a member's creation. Read that carefully. This community does not support the recasting of a member's creation. Again, a statement and this time there is an implied judgment that recasting another member's work is frowned upon. However, unlike many of the other stances in the CoC, there is not a defined punishment for such an action. Does this mean the administration would do nothing if a member's creation was recast? That would be determined on a case by case basis and we refuse to make a blanket statement because experience has shown us that such situations almost always involve a misunderstanding and extenuating circumstances.

As has been stated ad nauseam, instead of taking on the badge of "recasting" police", the administration has left the decision of supporting or not supporting recasters in the hands of the members. They will determine this with their $$$. However, as with any stance here at TDH, "the administrative staff reserves the right to change and interpret this code as they see fit. Anything they feel is unbecoming of TDH will be removed at their digression. The judgments and decisions of the administrative staff are final."


Again, you may not agree with this stance, but hopefully you better understand it.

D

Evan? Comments?

I know that I am relatively new here, and perhaps it's not my place to step in here... but here goes:

From my point of view, pretty much *any* unlicensed replica, whether modified or not, is in violation of copywright law, and is technically a "recast". You're always going to have that one or two irrational people who are going to make an issue of that. In that case, it comes down to points of view basically.

All of the wonderful fan-based stuff simply wouldn't exist if some of us didn't copy, in some form or another, the original work. It's all an idea, that we are fortunate enough to be a part of.

As for my view, I look at it like this: MR sucks. Ask almost anyone who was at the RPF when MR came into being. Add that to the fact that their customer service sucks, and most of their items are made to cater to the wealthy, and then some issues with their accuracy(most of the time). Someone like me, who can't afford $150 - $500 per item in my collection, has to either go without, make our own stuff from scratch, or find someone who offers a "build it yourself" kit, which official outlets don't offer. To us, and I mean people like me, it's not about making money... I would never try to make copies of someone else's idea or work to make a profit. To me, people who make runs of items solely to make a profit (Most of the aforementioned EBAY recasters) should be run out of the market. They don't generally give a **** about quality, and they're not in it for the love of the hobby. They're in it solely for money.

On the other hand, you have people here, who re-design and/or re-cast and modify pieces... To provide better quality, better accuracy, variety, and a whole host of reasons. And yes, some of the pieces cost alot of $$$... But most of the time, it's by someone who cares about the hobby rather than someone out to make a buck. In my mind, it's the intent that should matter. If someone re-casts or re-sculpts something that's either not available in the first place, or not available currently, then they are doing the hobby a favor. Most of us aren't in this hobby for an "investment", we're in it for personal enjoyment.

That being said, to me it comes down to intent, and what's available by other members.

Well, this has been an exhausting day hasn't it?

I've scanned about 90% of this thread but can't really do it much longer as my eyes are failing me at the moment. (Gettin OLD !)

But there are a few things I'd like to address ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delta75

I debated on jumping in on this and as most of you know I'm not one to shy away from telling people what I think. So here it is.

---

Me too. And me too. So here it comes .... ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delta75

I really think recasting is a pretty straight forward issue that can be summed up in 2 scenarios.

Lets take FP for example #2

2. FP gets a cast from an existing piece. He makes copies and sells them.
"Recaster guy" recasts FP's piece and sells them. Should he be banned for the same thing FP did?

My answer to that is no, why should he? Only thing different is FP recasted them first.

Very few "creators" fall into Example #1

---

There seriously need to be a correction here. And there are a few member that have even been debating this today, however I feel the need to point this out, yet again ... DEAD HORSE

I bought the molds bro. Not a cast. Didn't make a mold of a single cast. Therefore I did not "Recast" the helmet. I've produced "castings from said molds". There is a HUGE difference. Does that make it a not so gray area where it comes to intellectual rights violations? Absolutely not. I've never disagreed that I'm in violation of this. But bro, let me just let ya in on a little secret ... so are YOU. Anyone who buys what we make, is partaking in intellectual rights violations. At least morally and ethically anyway :lol For instance, as a cop, not only did I arrest the drug supplier, but also the buyer. Get it?

But that leads me to something even more interesting. Why is it that in every thread started on this topic, it all comes down to bashing makers, whether or not they are legit or otherwise? Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? :lol What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?

Now I'm not talking about you in this case, because to my knowledge, you've never purchased anything from me, but good grief bro? You've thrown my name around quite a bit today "just as an example" but it sure looks like you have a problem with me.

It comes down to this. If guys like myself, Man of War, SGB, Mardon, Ruffkintoys, BKBT, ect, ect, didn't exist because of the fickle back and forth at your convenience, boards like this, wouldn't exist as we know it. And guess what, even George Lucas himself has acknowledged this these days. I have the utmost respect for the man, and his empire, but realistically, he or his advisors have come to terms with, it's ppl like "US" as a community, that keep the interest and addictions going. As long as ppl like me aren’t' looking to capitalize on his intellectual property in an attempt to get rich, he actually appreciates what we do for him and his bottom line.
Personally, I've never sold enough to get rich. And never intend to. I have never considered myself an armorer, or a one stop shop. I don't even make a Jet Pack for goodness sake. I've offered what I've had, when I could, as a service here. And that leads me to a related notion ..

I've been turning a blind eye for sometime now. It's becoming more and more apparent that the more I let it go, the worse it will get over time. For months now, ppl have been comfortable enough to label me a "recaster" from time to time. Even if just simple semantics, it's not boding well with me. So lets clear a few things up, shall we?

Lets start with what I have made, with my own bare hands. Gauntlets. Armor. That's all I've ever offered besides the MSH2 until recently. How is it that I am a recaster? I have proof I made these items. Some of our administrators were even involved in the conception of these items.

Then comes the MSH2. Lets clear that one up again. It started as an MSH. Got it. This is the short answer. Once again, I purchased the rights from Natty15d. One of this boards finest artisans. He was no longer interested in making them available. It was hurting his relationship with his significant other who eventually became his wife and mother of his child. He put them up for sale. I stepped up to the plate when no one else could find funding, because I didn't want to see his creation exploited by some shady character. So we agreed on a price, and I paid it. How is this bad? K , so from there, I decided to make a new one. Initially, it was based on the MSH. In a very short time, it became a new sculpt. Just like the original artist sculpted his MSH using an old DP as an armature, I did the same, using a casting of the MSH1, that I purchased the rights to. Again, private original artist, whom I purchased the right to carry on. NOT RECASTING in an sense used in the CoC. The MSH2 was then released. And expired after a short run, and has never been produced since. Yeah, I'm really in this to rape the members of their purses here :lol

Then, comes Jango. Ooops. I can't begin to tell you that I regret this darned thing more and more everyday. You get ppl saying things like this ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eighteendelta

I think threatening to not make more helmets, props or anything else, shows the clearest intent of the whole drama. "I want people to stroke my ego and to tell me not to listen to the nay sayers", that's what that reaction screams to me. Hate me for saying it, but fine, don't make any more helmets, eat your losses on buying those molds, that's my feeling on the subject.
-x

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It was obvious that it was me he was referring to. Making statements saying that I might not release something couldn't be more true as I have made or eluded to it. "Not to stroke my own ego, or to get anyone else to stroke it. But simply because this Jango has been a thorn in my side from day one. I would much rather eat my losses then to deal with this kind of ****. Ya know? And sure, you could care less, but what about the Jango fans out there that pay the price when I throw in the towel?

If the Jango helmet is why ppl are getting comfortable with calling me a recaster, it needs to be nipped, here and now. For the last time, I didn't cast a cast. I purchased molds. Yes, copyright, and intellectual rights violations. But not recaster in the sense used in the CoC for pete sake.

Anyone else want to call me a recaster? Tell me why. Give me a real good reason, and I'll step back. I've always been the first to step up and call someone out for recasting. Hello, "Fettpropartist" in the recent past? I was banned for calling out Randy5000. And I've even been wrong in my accusations in the past. But I've always thrown caution to the wind and risked my standing with this forum to fight against it when no one else had the nuggets for it. Some of you are too new to even remember.

This is getting truly ridiculous guys and gals. Either you support those who help you support your habit, or you support your habit alone. Talk about mixed signals, and talking through both sides of your mouths? I've done nothing but try to please everyone I can. And I get labelled an egomaniac, an elitist, just to name a few.

And as far as those calling me out for getting bent over someone threatening to recast this helmet? let me draw your attention to the statement I made on the other thread. Shall we?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fettpride

If you want a recast, they exist. Ya want a contact? PM me. I'd be happy to pass on the biz. It will be a 3rd, 4th, or maybe even 5th generation casting, may or may not be cold cast, even if it is, won't be done to any exacting standard. Guaranteed. Oh, and you'll be lucky if a 5 yr old could where it, as they're already on the small side as it is.

Why would I do that and seemingly shoot myself in the foot you might ask? Because, first, I absolutely HATE making them. It is a bigger PAIN IN THE RUMP than you can possibly imagine. If you're casting them with any pride that is. So I'm in no hurry, really :lol Second, I really don't care to get rich off of them and face the wrath in court.

So, ya want one? A recast? More power to ya. Hell, I could help ya out with that too, I have some old silicone laying around I can send ya for cheap :lol

FP

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Does this look like I'm crying about it? Does this look like hypocrisy? If ya'll want to recast it, GO FOR IT! You'll have a teeny weenie kiddie helmet when you're done. And not to mention, there will always be a majority of us here on this forum that want as close to 1st genereation as possible. Why would I worry about a 3rd or 4th gen floating around?


Lets just get the air clear here. Do you guys (and gals) really want cool toys, or not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NikNak_aka

Read the CoC....

"Copying or duplicating, any item, with or without modification, without consent from the license holder, original creator, original artist, trademark holder, or copyright holder IS recasting. Deliberately recasting another member’s creation without consent is not supported by this community."

To me this reads as a definition to recasting and that recasting a MEMEBERS work is not supported.

As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work.

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Ya know, this is a very unique way of looking at it. Never considered that myself. Interesting, to say the least. Great job bro :cheers


Just my 2 cents. Keep ‘em coming. I've got nothing better to do :doh

FP

oh dont get me wrong, i am not signaling out anyone one person here or current situation. i could care less. not my work being copied. i just want to understand. thanks for responding.

ok, so you just clarify what recasting is outside the dented helmet forum, then recasting a tdh members work is not supported by the community. hmm. i understand now. its frowned upon but if a member recasts its up to the community not to support. no secret police or flogging. i must be tired.

and the mr paragragh. i wasnt being literal, the statement is what i have heard through many forums. i ment it as the cohesive consious of the people. they blame mr to justify recasting their helmet to make a profit.

ok, i have read your replies, i am cool with it. your forum, your rules. i am prior military. i am used to ONLY black or white, not gray. gray area is when if you get away with it, great, count your blessings, if you are caught, a courtmartial/trial will proove you wrong. like i said, i just wanted clarification.


i like this one-----

"As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work."

so since it doesnt affect the person directly (hence a company made up of thousands) its ok to rip them off? so if there was a mr rep on this board like the rpf, then would that apply nik nak aka?

Bottom line bro, to me, is do you want to be able to participate in the costuming hobby, or not? If you have such a problem with replicas, then well, there's the proverbial door.

I for one want to be able to complete my custom armor and wear it. That's not going to happen if I *only* buy "official licensed replicas". They don't make half of what I want. And they darn sure don't do it in custom.

I have alot of respect for the artists here. I may never buy an MSH2 helm, or an HS helm, or one of 99centtaco's nifty belts(just to name a few things). But I appreciate their contributions, and every other artisan's contributions here. It would be a sad day indeed if the only things we were allowed to do was to buy strictly MR stuff and modify it to suit our custom concepts. I'd have to wear BDU's and an MR helm, and that's about it, mate.

So, like I said... if you have such a problem with the idea, you know where the virtual door is. Just my 2 credits.

Recasting is wrong not matter what but the way I look at it is, were all very lucky to be even doing this at all. If LFL wanted too they could slam the hammer down on us and that would be the end of that.

I personally havnt had any of my stuff recasted that i know of but eventually when I release my Gladiator helmet/armor I wont be suprised if it does. Ive spent at least a years on the helmet and another half on the armor and to tell you tell you that I wouldnt get upset if it gets recasted would be a lie, but it is what it is. Did I create the armor and helmet design??..... No, so techincally I have no rights to sell it than the recaster. Just because someone "purchased" molds from another doesnt give any right either. So all in all no one here really has any right to create,copy and sell any of this but luckly LFL turns the other way.

Either way recasting isnt going to stop, but I figured instead of depriving the market and only selling to "certain people" like the TE stormtrooper incident some years back, try flooding the market and let your name be known so people know where to come and get a good transaction from the real deal. IMO part of the reason stuff gets recasted is its not avaliable in quantity and in turn people will see $ signs and sooner or later those few avaliable items will end up in the wrong hands and be casted up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

oh dont get me wrong, i am not signaling out anyone one person here or current situation. i could care less. not my work being copied. i just want to understand. thanks for responding.

ok, so you just clarify what recasting is outside the dented helmet forum, then recasting a tdh members work is not supported by the community. hmm. i understand now. its frowned upon but if a member recasts its up to the community not to support. no secret police or flogging. i must be tired.

and the mr paragragh. i wasnt being literal, the statement is what i have heard through many forums. i ment it as the cohesive consious of the people. they blame mr to justify recasting their helmet to make a profit.

ok, i have read your replies, i am cool with it. your forum, your rules. i am prior military. i am used to ONLY black or white, not gray. gray area is when if you get away with it, great, count your blessings, if you are caught, a courtmartial/trial will proove you wrong. like i said, i just wanted clarification.


i like this one-----

"As far as I remember LFL and MR and DP are not memebers of this board as they are not one person and no one person is responsible for the buckets in question. If there was one person souly responsible that was a contributing member of the community I think there would be a bigger problem with recasting their work."

so since it doesnt affect the person directly (hence a company made up of thousands) its ok to rip them off? so if there was a mr rep on this board like the rpf, then would that apply nik nak aka?

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Hippo Clone,

It seems that your frustration lies in the fact that most people are willing to bend the rules or have flexible morals when it comes to this topic because without it, they would not be able to get a great deal of what they have and in truth, this hobby would not exist. We exist at the leniency of LFL. At any point they could shut us down for copyright violation, but they choose not to. Some have taken this slight freedom and used it to make a living. Others have used it to make their own costumes. At the end of the day, this entire hobby is in violation of LFL's copyright. With that in mind, TDH decided quite some time ago that on some issues we were not going to be the police of each person's morals. We tried a black and white approach to recasting but continually ran into grey areas and continually found that are decisions felt more and more hypocritical. We finally decided that given the fact this hobby as a whole is an infringement on LFL's copyright, we will let the members decide for themselves whether they want to support recasting or not. The reason that we make note of it being frowned upon to recast another member's creation is that we feel we have some level of obligation to protect our members.

If you were hoping for someone to give you an explanation that would somehow justify people's actions, you won't get it because it can't be justified. This hobby exists at the fringe of legality and fortunately, LFL is more interested in having us around to promote their movies and merchandise than enforcing their copyright. The danger to such a leniency is that over time people begin to incorrectly assume an entitlement mantality and begin to believe they have a "right" to do the things they are doing. The lack of reprisal emboldens them and they begin to act in ways that they should not. We would all do well to remember that we exist only at LFL's graciousness and that leniency could be stripped away at any time.

FP,
I never called you a recaster, my issue was always over your reaction to a joke, a very tactless joke from a German, who obviously has different cultural view than you when it come to humor. I don't wish to justify his remarks, but I thought it was abundantly clear that it was simply a very dumb joke.

I don't have an issue with the molds and cast in your case, so please understand that. That was the first person, then the second person chimed in with a very inappropriate post. I strongly disagreed with his post about 'recasting because you are a recaster'. Again, I never claimed to see you as a recaster. Then that poster was attacked, not his post, but the poster himself. Ad hominem. That was the second issue I have, even if it's the same as the first. The difference was in the first case you started the assault against the poster and in the second spidey took lead. You had set that example and he happily followed. I know that I would have had no problem with the whole thing if you and spidey had addressed the issues within the posts without attacking the posters themselves, I would have supported you 100%. I would be happy to expound on that if I haven't made my point clear enough.

-x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rogue Studios

This is one reason Myself and others steer caution on letting stuff out.

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This is indeed a good example and one of the big reasons why only a very select few got a copy of your plug and why no more will ever see the light of day. Such a shame. But to a degree you must let go of said piece for the greater good meaning sharing it with other costumers. Much as you did with the ears.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fettpride

Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? :lol What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?

---

This is a good point and one that I highlighted in my first post and my post in your cargo hold thread. Folks are so quick to cut hairs on the recasting topic when it comes to alot of the artists on this board but are often the first with there hands out as soon as a run starts on armor or a helmet they want.

______

I think I got a glimpse of a less civil version of this thread starting up in FPs thread and I wanted it moved over here, aired out, and wanted to see where it would truly go. Dead horse or not, there still seem to be lots of members who are a bit fuzzy on the boards stance on recasting.

The bottom line in my opinion is that we should be thankful that folks like FP, and RS and others use there skills and knolage on this costume and create some of what they create, remaster what they have remasted and offered us up copys of there end result regardless of how it came to be. (I am just naming these too folks because they are commenting in this thread) Try making a prop from scratch and you will see what a large amount of effort, time and money goes into it. Even a hevy mod on a current one is no walk in the park. At the end of the day my, and many others costumes would not be possible with out what the prop makers on this site do. But keep in mind that very few of the things you know and love on your costume came to be out of a hunk of clay, they started from moded DP deluxes, measurements off screen used peices and other such things.

I think some folks seem to think that is recasting in the common sense of the word but in my eyes its just the art that created the pieces we have on our costume, be it clay, gypsum, metal, modded older sculpts, 3rd gen casts of mystery helmets... ect ect.

Just my 2 cents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eighteendelta

Again, I never claimed to see you as a recaster. Then that poster was attacked, not his post, but the poster himself. Ad hominem. That was the second issue I have, even if it's the same as the first. The difference was in the first case you started the assault against the poster and in the second spidey took lead. You had set that example and he happily followed. I know that I would have had no problem with the whole thing if you and spidey had addressed the issues within the posts without attacking the posters themselves, I would have supported you 100%. I would be happy to expound on that if I haven't made my point clear enough.
-x

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Dude, :lol...for the sake of this thread, because it's a good thread with a good debate that EVAN4218 started, and I don't want to see it go down..and since you don't want to continue this in PM where this kinda thing belongs....I would suggest you keep what happened on the Jango FP thread in the Cargo hold were it belongs, over there.... And not try to derail this one....which seems to be your intent.....THIS THREAD IS ABOUT RECASTING, NOT ABOUT YOU GETTING YOUR FEELINGS HURT ON ANOTHER THREAD.

And Trust me, even if FP had never posted anything in that thread I still would've called out a Stupid or Inappropriate comment from any member......again you haven't been around here long enough to know I definitely don't need anyones help when I call people out......

Hey, didn't you say you were done with this anyway, something about your "blood pressure"??;)

Oh and Good luck with your Trash Can Armor and your scratch built Fett, cause it looks like that's all you'll be getting your hands on....since you've shot yourself in the foot in less than 24 hours on this board...real good move bro.:thumbsup

** I do want to apologize to EVAN4218 and the Board for this post.......it is unfortunate.:thumbsd**
Sorry Folks, please Ignore and continue on.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fettpride

There seriously need to be a correction here. And there are a few member that have even been debating this today, however I feel the need to point this out, yet again ... DEAD HORSE

I bought the molds bro. Not a cast. Didn't make a mold of a single cast. Therefore I did not "Recast" the helmet. I've produced "castings from said molds". There is a HUGE difference.

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Like I said to Mirax, if you bought those molds from LFL then no prob, your covered man.

Quote:

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Does that make it a not so gray area where it comes to intellectual rights violations? Absolutely not. I've never disagreed that I'm in violation of this. But bro, let me just let ya in on a little secret ... so are YOU. Anyone who buys what we make, is partaking in intellectual rights violations. At least morally and ethically anyway :lol For instance, as a cop, not only did I arrest the drug supplier, but also the buyer. Get it?

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I agree.

Quote:

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But that leads me to something even more interesting. Why is it that in every thread started on this topic, it all comes down to bashing makers, whether or not they are legit or otherwise?

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If the shoe fits..

Quote:

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Does it even occur to those that argue these topics every time we turn around, that without the makers, legit or otherwise, ya'll would be doing it yourselves? :lol What about the luxury of clicking "Buy-It-Now", or "PM SENT !" Every time you guys argue about these topics, the "Good Guys", self admittedly, always get flogged for providing a service and get taken for granted, until the next time you want something?

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There is always someone else FP, don't ever think of yourself as irreplacable, that applies to all aspects of life.

Quote:

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Now I'm not talking about you in this case, because to my knowledge, you've never purchased anything from me, but good grief bro? You've thrown my name around quite a bit today "just as an example" but it sure looks like you have a problem with me.

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Thats correct, I have never bought anything from you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spideyfett

Dude, :lol...for the sake of this thread, because it's a good thread with a good debate that EVAN4218 started, and I don't want to see it go down....I would suggest you keep what happened on the Jango FP thread in the Cargo hold were it belongs, over there.... And not try to derail this one....which seems to be your intent.....THIS THREAD IS ABOUT RECASTING, NOT ABOUT YOU GETTING YOUR FEELINGS HURT ON ANOTHER THREAD.

And Trust me, even if FP had never posted anything in that thread I still would've called out a Stupid or Inappropriate comment from any member......again you haven't been around here long enough to know I definitely don't need anyones help when I call people out......

Hey, didn't you say you were done with this anyway, something about your "blood pressure"??;)

Oh and Good luck with your Trash Can Armor and your scratch built Fett, cause it looks like that's all you'll be getting your hands on....since you've shot yourself in the foot in less than 24 hours on this board...real good move bro.:thumbsup

** I do want to aplogize to EVAN4218 and the Board for this post.......it is unfortunate.:thumbsd**
Sorry Folks, please Ignore and continue on.:)

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And the threats continue... not even bothering to pretend to hide them anymore. As far as "blood pressure" you strike me as completely humorless if you can't distinguish a joke from a serious statement, I would never discuss any medical issues with you or anyone else on a forum board. I haven't bought anything from any alleged recasters, nor do I plan on it, so your threats are empty and meaningless to me. I don't feel that anyone has hurt my feelings, it's a hobby man. I don't get too worked up now that I don't have people shooting at me. Call me names, tell me you hate me, whatever.

I read that as "anyone who dares to sell you props or armor will face similar dire consequences". Maybe I am the only one who sees that? I have no desire to derail the topic of conversation, recasting. In that Vein, I think this is an interesting article, sure a lot of you are already aware of this, but for those who aren't:

http://www.lucasfilm.com/press/news/news20070124.html

I am not sure how that impacts the different arguments on either side, but feel free to form your own opinions.


-x

eighteendelta, while Spidey could be a bit more tactful, the "threat" you are perceiving is only in your head. Stop playing the victim, realize that the approach you are taking, especially as a newcomer, does not work within this community, and try something different. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. It appears that you are doing exactly that. Suck up your pride a little and don't be so easily offended. Correction is not an attack. You have stepped on some toes but it is not beyond repair. While you perceive our members to be attacking you, they are actually making an effort to help you. Again, they may not be doing so in the optimal way, but that is clearly their intent.

As a further note in regard to LFL. As I mentioned earlier, we exist only due to LFL's generosity. If we were asked by LFL or a lincensee to stop the sale of particular items on TDH, we would comply immediately. If any of our members were to receive a C&D from LFL we would STRONGLY urge you to comply immediately. LFL is not required to issues a C&D. They can and will sue without warning. Any seller must weigh that risk and keep it in mind. It is one of the dangers we face in this hobby and should never take the privelages LFL extends to us for granted.

Again I want to apologize to the Board:thumbup....I tried to take it to PM....but oh well.:doh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by evan4218

This is indeed a good example and one of the big reasons why only a very select few got a copy of your plug and why no more will ever see the light of day. Such a shame. But to a degree you must let go of said piece for the greater good meaning sharing it with other costumers. Much as you did with the ears.



This is a good point and one that I highlighted in my first post and my post in your cargo hold thread. Folks are so quick to cut hairs on the recasting topic when it comes to alot of the artists on this board but are often the first with there hands out as soon as a run starts on armor or a helmet they want.

______

I think I got a glimpse of a less civil version of this thread starting up in FPs thread and I wanted it moved over here, aired out, and wanted to see where it would truly go. Dead horse or not, there still seem to be lots of members who are a bit fuzzy on the boards stance on recasting.

The bottom line in my opinion is that we should be thankful that folks like FP, and RS and others use there skills and knolage on this costume and create some of what they create, remaster what they have remasted and offered us up copys of there end result regardless of how it came to be. (I am just naming these too folks because they are commenting in this thread) Try making a prop from scratch and you will see what a large amount of effort, time and money goes into it. Even a hevy mod on a current one is no walk in the park. At the end of the day my, and many others costumes would not be possible with out what the prop makers on this site do. But keep in mind that very few of the things you know and love on your costume came to be out of a hunk of clay, they started from moded DP deluxes, measurements off screen used peices and other such things.

I think some folks seem to think that is recasting in the common sense of the word but in my eyes its just the art that created the pieces we have on our costume, be it clay, gypsum, metal, modded older sculpts, 3rd gen casts of mystery helmets... ect ect.

Just my 2 cents

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So in the end.. we can all agree that it's the community as a whole that will shun those "BloodSport Studios" from this board and feel sorry for those noobs for buying junk casts on the Ebay because they have not found TDH yet and continue to encourage newcomers to learn.
That in my opinion is TDH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hippo Clone

Sceen used. i know of only one guy who bought a SU stormtrooper bucket at christies for around $30k. as the story goes, he got permission, signed letter from lucasfilm, to make 30 and only 30 recasts. i have just learned this one, probably others, but no one else as far as "permission".

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Not to completely derail things but I would love to hear more about this... I could be way offbase but this sounds a lot like one of those prop myths propagated by the TE crowd... That doesn't jive at all with typical LFL licensing. Their tack record is of licensing, for big bucks.. not granting someone "permission" to infringe on their copyright... Again, I could totally be off base but would love to hear more about this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brak's Buddy

Not to completely derail things but I would love to hear more about this... I could be way offbase but this sounds a lot like one of those prop myths propagated by the TE crowd... That doesn't jive at all with typical LFL licensing. Their tack record is of licensing, for big bucks.. not granting someone "permission" to infringe on their copyright... Again, I could totally be off base but would love to hear more about this.

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I agree, it doesn't seem to fit their history. It does sound a lot like an attempt by someone to pass off a recast for big$$$ and morally exculpate themselves.

-x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delta75

So in the end.. we can all agree that it's the community as a whole that will shun those "BloodSport Studios" from this board and feel sorry for those noobs for buying junk casts on the Ebay because they have not found TDH yet and continue to encourage newcomers to learn.
That in my opinion is TDH

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I think "continuing to encourage newcomers" has been the theme of these kinds of threads in the last couple of days...:lol...

But I agree, in the end it's a good thing to revisit this Debate from time to time.

For me personnally, I want the "GOOD STUFF" in terms of props when building my FETT..... And last time I checked there weren't any really "great recasts" (if there is such a thing) on Ebay...All the Masters, Artists, and Prop builders for Fett are all members of THIS board already....So why bite the hand that feeds us because of a gray area.... ;)

Good thread.:thumbsup

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fettpride

I don't even make a Jet Pack for goodness sake.

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So when are you gonna start working on this?:lol:lol:lol:lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spideyfett

I think "continuing to encourage newcomers" has been the theme of these kinds of threads in the last couple of days...:lol...

But I agree, in the end it's a good thing to revisit this Debate from time to time.

For me personnally, I want the "GOOD STUFF" in terms of props when building my FETT..... And last time I checked there weren't any really "great recasts" (if there is such a thing) on Ebay...All the Masters, Artists, and Prop builders for Fett are all members of THIS board already....So why bite the hand that feeds us because of a gray area.... ;)

Good thread.:thumbsup

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Spidey, keep in mind when you setup shop at something as big as C4 and advertise yourself where the entire audience "is your target audience". Your going to attract a TON of noobs. Is that bad? Well, it can be at sometimes but you never know when the next MOW will show up.

We all want the "Good Stuff" Spidey, but not at the cost of our dignity to creators with a god complex. I learned a long time ago in my fighting days, there is ALWAYS someone better than you.

Is there an elitest attitude at TDH? Of course there is and the new members see it most of all. Props are for sale in this community, knowledge shouldn't be.

This thread should have never been made.
We have had a few of these, and they always up bitter, why make more?

I would also submit the following articles for consideration in this discussion, since they seem to set the legal precedents.

http://www.starwars.com/collecting/n...s20061011.html

http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyr...?NoticeID=1910

We are going to try and stick to the topic this time right?

-x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Clayster

This thread should have never been made.
We have had a few of these, and they always up bitter, why make more?

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Maybe some things just need to be said Clayster, you can't have thousands of people in one room and expect them all to think alike. A helathy debate usually brings out the truth. Whether some want it out or not.

dbl post

Yeah well LFL chooses their battles. SDS was a very high profile case as it dealt with some one who actually worked on the films. If LFL wanted they could shut down TDH and any of the artists here. But they choose not to and that's their choice. Its not like TDH is some kind of secret underground prop ring that tries to hide its dealings. We had a booth a C4 for Christs sake.

I'd like to think if SDS was a prop board member(not just tdh), as oppose to a business that was trying to make a living off of the props they were selling, that the SDS buckets and armor would probably have been as available as an FX or AP kit. Instead they created a fan fair with bold claims and a fancy website, which more or less put a target on their back.

The other article I have no clue what it is referring to but it seems again to be more of a business model trying to make lots of money off a LFL license.

Most of the artists here sell their work for what seems to be little more than cost. Cost being: Time Taken(for sculpting/casting/painting) + Parts(resin, aluminum, fiberglass, paint ect) = Cost

In some cases they only charge cost of parts and shipping.

I'd think LFL would be more concerned with people looking to make mass amounts of money off of licenses rather than people selling a limited number of items at cost or near cost.

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Originally Posted by Delta75

Maybe some things just need to be said Clayster, you can't have thousands of people in one room and expect them all to think alike. A helathy debate usually brings out the truth. Whether some want it out or not.

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Who said I didnt want it out?
I am saying that this thread is going to start more arguments than it already has.

After reading many of the responses reguarding this topic and thinking on it I've come to one conclusion and it is really very simple,.... "DO YOUR RESEARCH!"..... We know who to go to and who to stay away from and we can thank the folks in this Forum for that. So if you need anything that pertains to Fett you can get it here. Just as if you were building a Vader or R-2 or 3P0 and so on.

Now as for recasting in this community The numbers are small and we can leave it up to the parties involed and Admin the keep these matters "IN HOUSE." But simply put you get what you pay for. So, If you see a Starter Helmet that's $100.00 in this forum and then scoot over to Flea Bay for a Helmet that's $80.00 (I think you all know what I'm talking about) then it's safe to say that if you leave this forum to go and get it somewhere else,.. Your not gonna to be too happy about what you get. Not saying that e-bay does'nt have good buys, but if it does you'll know about it from in here.

So do yourself a favor and STAY HERE!!!! C

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Originally Posted by Delta75

Is there an elitest attitude at TDH? Of course there is and the new members see it most of all. Props are for sale in this community, knowledge shouldn't be.

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Nah..I used to think so....but after meeting a ton of fellow TDH'ers at C4 I have to say the whole Elitest thing has gone out the window for me...and is an old argument for Another Thread, not this one.;)

Besides half the stuff we say or post on this board gets misinterpreted.
Once you met people face to face...whole other ball game, trust me...and people I had issues with that I met at C4, we just laughed it off and had a drink or two...or three, or four:lol.

Now back to the subject....Recasting.:)

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Originally Posted by Spideyfett

Nah..I used to think so....but after meeting a ton of fellow TDH'ers at C4 I have to say the whole Elitest thing has gone out the window for me...and is an old argument for Another Thread, not this one.;)

Besides half the stuff we say or post on this board gets misinterpreted.
Once you met people face to face...whole other ball game, trust me...and people I had issues with that I met at C4, we just laughed it off and had a drink or two...or three, or four:lol.

Now back to the subject....Recasting.:)

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Almost everything I say on this board gets misinterpreted, I just get used to it.

Meeting everyone at CIV was awesome, also when I had random TDH'ers come up to me and say "whats up?"

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Originally Posted by The Clayster

Almost everything I say on this board gets misinterpreted, I just get used to it.

Meeting everyone at CIV was awesome, also when I had random TDH'ers come up to me and say "whats up?"

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Glad to met you to bro..;)

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Originally Posted by Delta75

Spidey, keep in mind when you setup shop at something as big as C4 and advertise yourself where the entire audience "is your target audience". Your going to attract a TON of noobs. Is that bad? Well, it can be at sometimes but you never know when the next MOW will show up.

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And that was the whole point of the booth at C4; attract new members. And with this influx of new members, we ALL need to remember to be patient with them and create a friendly and inviting environment.

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Originally Posted by The Dent

And that was the whole point of the booth at C4; attract new members. And with this influx of new members, we ALL need to remember to be patient with them and create a friendly and inviting environment.

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This has been my point from the beginning.

-x

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Originally Posted by eighteendelta

This has been my point from the beginning.

-x

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Well soemtimes that is hard, I know when I see someone doing something wrong, I dont really say "hey, maybe you might want to try....this alternative"

I kinda go "No, dont do that, you need to do this" and it comes off as I am saying I am better than they are, etc.

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Originally Posted by Delta75

There is always someone else FP, don't ever think of yourself as irreplacable, that applies to all aspects of life.

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Originally Posted by Delta75

We all want the "Good Stuff" Spidey, but not at the cost of our dignity to creators with a god complex. I learned a long time ago in my fighting days, there is ALWAYS someone better than you.

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It's statements like this that perplex me :lol What exactly gave you the idea that I feel I'm "Better" than anyone else? Is this simple "misinterpretation" of my board conduct or personality, or do you have some sort of personal beef with me? How can you make statements like "God Complex" and the like and expect that the guy on the receiving end won't take it as a "Baiting" insult? Lets address these statements ...

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Originally Posted by Delta75

There is always someone else FP, don't ever think of yourself as irreplacable, that applies to all aspects of life.

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This comes across like you feel you're actually better than someone else. Wiser at the very least. As if though you've got the answers to the "Meaning of life" or something. Almost like a Father would speak to his son? You really expect that I don't already know this? You don't even know me :lol The last thing I need, is any life lessons from you my friend. I'm not your son. I'm a big boy, and have seen and lived my share. For you to preach like this, comes across as arrogant.

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Originally Posted by Delta75

We all want the "Good Stuff" Spidey, but not at the cost of our dignity to creators with a god complex. I learned a long time ago in my fighting days, there is ALWAYS someone better than you.

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God complex huh? Last time I checked, I put my pants on the same way you do. Unless of course we're talking about the days where my pants are so stiff from bondo and fiberglass resin that I have to stand them up and jump into them :lol

Look, I know I'm expendable. What exactly ever gave you the impression otherwise? I know "There's always a bigger fish". And no matter where I go, there's always going to be someone that can slap me down. The same goes for you too ;)

FP

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Originally Posted by The Clayster

Well soemtimes that is hard, I know when I see someone doing something wrong, I dont really say "hey, maybe you might want to try....this alternative"

I kinda go "No, dont do that, you need to do this" and it comes off as I am saying I am better than they are, etc.

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Yeah I come off a bit gruff, it's even worse in person. I'm not a good person, let alone better than anyone here, just to get that straight.

-x

FP, you have some serious guilt issues man. Move Along

And for the record, if I have a personal beef with someone, it will be discussed in person so that there is no miscommunication of feelings via typed words.

Here's my .2c on recasting.


If you want to keep stuff from being recast, don't sell it. Someone either through malicious intent or plain ingnorance will at some point copy your stuff (or attmept to). That is true.
But is that really the attitude you want people with access to great stuff to have? If so, then guess what. Those great items will never see the light of day and you'll have to make do with your janky innacurate scratch builds.

You see, only a small percent of this community has access to the good stuff and most of those people will never offer those highly sought after items for the fear of someone recasting. And the community suffers as a whole for it.

The only way anyone can offer anything of quality is if the prop community takes a stance to protect those who make these rare items available.
It's not whether you scratch build it or not that is important here. It is the person responsible for bringing the rare item into the populace that deserves protection for the item he is bringing because without him...

If you cannot have access to that great item, as much as it sucks, you have to bite your lip and suck it up. Maybe the next great item will be made available to you. However be mindful that your position on recasting ethics will place you in a catagory of whether or not you can be trusted.
That's a big part of the reason why some people get stuff and others don't.

And we are watching. >:

P.S.
Mirax, I believe you can recast soft goods as well by copying patterns of a sold soft good part. That's just as bad as dipping something in silicone. The same concerns I have of releasing a fabric part are the same ones I have for a resin piece.

AMEN!..Perfect post Gino....makes sense to me..:thumbsup

I think the big difference between the resin and soft parts is, that even to 'reverse engineer' a jumpsuit or ammo pouch, you still need a certain skill set to reproduce that item. With resin, anyone can watch a half hour DVD on casting then buy the supplies and make a garbage recast to sell cheap. Maybe I am wrong to think that was the thinking behind Mirax's statement. I agree that both are equally offensive and neither should be tolerated, I think the cost/benefits would push most unscrupulous people towards the hard parts when it comes to knockoffs.

-x

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Originally Posted by Delta75

FP, you have some serious guilt issues man. Move Along

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:lol This is what I mean. You got it all figured out ...

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Originally Posted by Delta75

And for the record, if I have a personal beef with someone, it will be discussed in person so that there is no miscommunication of feelings via typed words.

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Thats the way it should be. But in a case like this thread, what should be civil discussion, can be tainted easily with colorful remarks such as the ones you've made. It sounds like "Baiting". Don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your personal opinions, just like everyone else. But sometimes, your personal opinion of another member isn't healthy durring a discussion like this. You could actually force your own opinion on someone new that may not have had the chance to make one for themselves yet. It can be interpreted as "flexing your keyboard muscles". Not a sign of a straight shooter that would rather clear the air face to face, or talk through their differences over a brew ;)

FP

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Originally Posted by fettpride

:lol This is what I mean. You got it all figured out ...




Thats the way it should be. But in a case like this thread, what should be civil discussion, can be tainted easily with colorful remarks such as the ones you've made. It sounds like "Baiting". Don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your personal opinions, just like everyone else. But sometimes, your personal opinion of another member isn't healthy durring a discussion like this. You could actually force your own opinion on someone new that may not have had the chance to make one for themselves yet. It can be interpreted as "flexing your keyboard muscles". Not a sign of a straight shooter that would rather clear the air face to face, or talk through their differences over a brew ;)

FP

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Perhaps you could talk to some other board members about "flexing their keyboard muscles"? There was a great deal of that done in your defense, the overwhelming majority of it was from others. There seems to be an effort to overlook that from time to time. (No that's not an attack on the admins or mods)

I don't really want to continue this indefinitely, we eventually should think about an endpoint for all of this. I don't think we are going to all come to a single unified consensus on this topic or a lot of others for that matter. It's been good to air our grievances but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Costuming and having fun.

-x

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Originally Posted by fettpride

Not a sign of a straight shooter that would rather clear the air face to face, or talk through their differences over a brew ;)

FP

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I look forward to our official introduction over that brew FP
:cheers

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Originally Posted by Delta75

I look forward to our official introduction over that brew FP
:cheers

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Now that there is the best thing I've heard in two days ! I'm all about it! First round on me :cheers

FP

Man, I love these threads. I wish I wasn't at work, so I could post an even longer response. I swear this is mostly on-topic...

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Originally Posted by Gino

If you want to keep stuff from being recast, don't sell it.

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Originally Posted by Gino

I believe you can recast soft goods as well by copying patterns of a sold soft good part. That's just as bad as dipping something in silicone. The same concerns I have of releasing a fabric part are the same ones I have for a resin piece.

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It's disappointing to see members go in the direction of "my contribution to the community will be copied or otherwise re-purposed, maybe *gasp* without due credit to me, so I shouldn't contribute at all". I guess I have a bigger issue with the philosophy under which a lot of hardware parts are offered on TDH, in contrast to the way other useful contributions are made here.

Why do folks like wizardofflight contribute incredibly comprehensive armor and helmet templates? Why have I spent several weekends drawing ESB paint scratch templates? Why do people post helpful tips and techniques in progress threads? For example:

http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f23/new-batting-helmet-bucket-13420/

We do it so that TDH members can expand their skill base and multiply their talents. And so we can all make great costumes!

I don't have the time or the space to do sculpting or mold making (though I studied it in college), so I try to contribute to the SW fan community in other ways where I am capable. I'm generally against the idea of someone not receiving credit where it's due. However, people here should remember that the ultimate goal is that everyone here gets to make progress on their costumes, and everybody has the best resources to do so.

I'd rather see folks who make a hardware part here encourage other members to pick up the manufacture later. I'd rather see 30 people making aluminum parts, 30 people making armor and helmets, 30 people making soft parts, etc. based off of the best reference designs. Users like WOF (for example) enable that kind of propagation of ideas and skill.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I'll go back to drawing decals and fabric patterns and will continue posting what I make for everyone to use.

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Originally Posted by Spideyfett

Glad to met you to bro..;)

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:lol
That was awesome.

I am with Count Dookie. For me, it is more important that the few finds I have made are known by the general populous than the fact that I found them is known. I do get a bit irritated when others try to take credit for my efforts, but in general I just want the information out there and available so people can use it to make a better costume.

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Originally Posted by [B

Gino][/B]
If you want to keep stuff from being recast, don't sell it.

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Originally Posted by Count Dookie

It's disappointing to see members go in the direction of "my contribution to the community will be copied or otherwise re-purposed, maybe *gasp* without due credit to me, so I shouldn't contribute at all". I guess I have a bigger issue with the philosophy under which a lot of hardware parts are offered on TDH, in contrast to the way other useful contributions are made here.

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If you ever see any of Gino's work you'll know why he doesn't want it floating around to just anyone. Even though his bucket was not "scrathbuilt" he did enough that it might as well have been.

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Originally Posted by Delta75

[/I]
If you ever see any of Gino's work you'll know why he doesn't want it floating around to just anyone. Even though his bucket was not "scrathbuilt" he did enough that it might as well have been.

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True but alot of people act as if we own these prop rights, no matter if we sculpted, catsed it off an orignal......ect I think we take for granted that we're ALLOWED to do this and LFL doesnt shut all of this down.

As ive said before recasting is wrong but we shouldnt have this above all attitude and pretend that these are OUR own pieces that we created. In some form or another we stealing others designs from the movie and we lucky to be allowed to be even doing this without any license.


And for the record I think Fett Pride has take the right approach as a dealer and not hiding his products but mass producing for TDH and making his name be known as the go to guy. Ive seen to many times in the past members offering top notch stuff to only sell them to a select few, which IMO is heading down the wrong road.

Most of the time, when you see people only selling to a select few, it's because it is to people who have gained their trust. Can you blame them?

Also, we all know that none of us own the "true rights" to any of this stuff. No one is arguing that. But for people who are lucky enough to have obtained "the good stuff" to offer it to the populace, the only way they are going to continue to do that is if they feel that what they are bringing forth is going to be protected from mass distrubution. That's what it really boils down to.
Trust, and a feeling of security that they aren't just giving away their opportunity to sell or trade their special item for other things in the future.
If everyone has it, it will have lost it's special-ness, therefore losing its value, and therefore losing it's power to open doors for new acqisitions or selling value.

If you've never had a rare item (prop-wise), I'm sure it is difficult to understand the reasoning behind what I'm saying.
Trust me when I say that if your goal is to stay in this hobby and collect the rare coveted items, the only way that is going to happen is by realizing the importance of discretion, limited runs, and CONTROL over the distribution of the rare item to not fall into the hands of someone who is going to mass produce it.

You want these rare items to come available to you, they come with a price in the form of a recasting ethic. You can't have it both ways.
If you take shady means to get your trinket now, you might be serving yourself for the immediate, but ultimately will be doing a HUGE disservice for yourself later because no one will trust you to have any of their rare items.

The bringer forth of the rare item must be protected AS IF he were the original artist otherwise they never will bring them forth.

In my best soup nazi voice, "No super accurate rocket pack for you!"

WOW..

trust me dude...he has no guilt issues. FP is a good guy and has done great things for this community. i dont understand why people are attacking him.

lets "MOVE ALONG" and get back on topic

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Originally Posted by Delta75

FP, you have some serious guilt issues man. Move Along

And for the record, if I have a personal beef with someone, it will be discussed in person so that there is no miscommunication of feelings via typed words.

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Originally Posted by The Clayster

Almost everything I say on this board gets misinterpreted, I just get used to it.

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Just what the heck is this supposed to mean?!? HUNH?!? HUNH?!?!!

J/K couldn't let that one go by:lol

Cast away my friends, cast away. But don't recast away.

Wow last night we set a new record for the most members online at the same time.

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Originally Posted by DarthMiller

WOW..

trust me dude...he has no guilt issues. FP is a good guy and has done great things for this community. i dont understand why people are attacking him.

lets "MOVE ALONG" and get back on topic

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I'm pretty sure FP and I have already made things clear and have moved along Miller.