Discussion on Karen Traviss quits Star Wars within the The Sarlacc Pit forum, part of the Community category; http://karentraviss.typepad.com/ In the end, the only rational decision I could
http://karentraviss.typepad.com/
It sounds like the Clone Wars version of Mandalore doesn't mesh with hers... Wow.In the end, the only rational decision I could take was to make Imperial Commando #2 my last book for Star Wars. I'm sorry I had to do that, and it wasn't a decision I took lightly or even quickly, so bear with me while I explain.
Karen Traviss is a nice lady, but I'm not surprised. The books always have and always will take a back seat to anything seen on the big screen or television...and that's the way it should be. That's no offense to those who write or read the books, they must understand though that the books must take a back seat.
The following sentance explains my feelings perfectly.
not. happy.
if george lucas is the father of star wars, kar'buir is without question the mother of mandalorians whether you o=love or hate her work.
no matter where "canon" takes us, i will follow. but her words will be my guidance always.
sorry to see you go kar'buir but in the hearts and minds of all mando'ade you will be long remembered and always loved for making us a people, uniting the clans and giving us a home.
A'den
Problem is that TCW is now writing over what we've known about Mandalore since 1983 when Mandalore and Keldabe as it's capitol was first written about in comics. Thats 26 years worth of people's work that is possibly getting retconned. George makes $$ off that part of the franchise to, and thats something we shouldn't just forget. While it may have to take a back seat...it's still not cool, not cool at all. This is only the first casualty of TCW, but I doubt it will be the last.Originally Posted by Foxbatkllr
There are enough Mando and KT fans out there to keep the fires lit for quite some time.
EDIT:
Fixed my earlier post as I misspoke some lines that were taken out of context in an email between her and I where I took something as it was not stated. My apologies for posting the wrong information, I am not Karen's mouthpiece nor have I tried/should think that I am one.
Last edited by NovallTalon; 08-10-2009 at 05:43 AM.
You are right Novall.
*Takes a deep breath and calms himself* You always know what to say.
What!!! I'm afraid I can't really say what I want... I'd have to severely edit or ban myself.
While I really enjoy the Clone Wars on TV and hope that the Live Action show will be good... I will always think of her universe as the real "canon." Without her, there would be no Skirata, Vau, Ordo, Mereel or the other Nulls... Darman or the Omega Squad... *sighs*
wow....The republic commando books were the ONLY reason i kept reading the star wars books. Sorry but how many times can luke ,Leia and poor Chewie save the galaxy. Once character is totally fleshed out it only has so much mileage left. Even when it comes to Anakin the mileage is getting thin.
Karen made the mandos beleivable....not just anti jedi bad guys..... but beleivable characters with depth. Mercs with heart
Oh well on the positive note.
I will SavE A TON OF MONEY AT The BOOKSTORE NOW WOOHOO!!!!!!
Karen Who?
gotcha
Well, at least she won't be turning the Mandalorians into the Star Wars version of klingons anymore. Nice lady I'm sure, but I'm so sick of all these people who live by the 'mandalorian lifestyle' like the "klingon people" do.
Late to the party, ain't'cha? There've been wonks trying to get Jedi made into an official religion in the US and UK for years.
I'm over my initial upset about this. I've known for a few months but kept it to myself since Karen hadn't made any announcements yet. I'll keep working on designing the Bes'uliik, but with considerably less input from her here on out.
There were problems with the Marvel interpretation, problems with Karen's, and I never liked the official stuff coming out around Episode II. Dark Horse has done good things with Jango, Boba, and the old-time Mandos from the Sith War on up to KOTOR. My "personal canon" takes all of that into account and does a good job of massaging it all together. I can only wonder how badly the new material from TCW is going to kick it in the crotch. *grump*
--Jonah
No different than those guys over in the UK who made Jedi an actual religion right?
Don't forget those same fans spend their money on Star Wars the same way you do, which in turn helps Star Wars continue to thrive.
On another note, Karen was very big with the military/ex-military group of Star Wars fans due to her gritty writing style and her own military experience. Hopefully they can find someone who has that same style for any future work containing Mandalorians.
Hahaha.
Life will not be quite the same
I never really liked Karen Traviss (I've met her in person and spoke with her several times on-line) and didn't care for the direction she was pushing SW as a whole. I'm kind of glad to see her go.
There, I said it, now everybody can start hating me
I have never read any of Traviss' books but she certainly seems to be a polarizinng individual. It seems that on one hand, there is an entire cult following that hangs on her every word as if it were gospel while everyone else seems to be slightly annoyed, not so much with her, but the people who adore her. Love her or hate her she certainly seems to have left a lasting mark on our little part of the Star Wars Galaxy.
I have to agree...I never really liked Karen Traviss (I've met her in person and spoke with her several times on-line) and didn't care for the direction she was pushing SW as a whole. I'm kind of glad to see her go.
There, I said it, now everybody can start hating me
Hmmm... this thread has certainly taken a strange turn.
I only met Karen once for all of 30 seconds at C4 for her to sign a book. I have read all her SW books, but none of her others. I like the way she writes, and how she made the clones into real people in the SW Universe, questioning the whole Jedi perspective. She throws a lot of ethical questions out there in her books.
Like others, I'm just sick and tired of the Luke/Mara and Leia/Han and their kids saving the galaxy time after time after time... ugh... Honestly, I wished they'd killed off Luke instead of Mara... she was the least annoying of the bunch.
Loved her books, but thought her 3 million clones idea was a total wank.
I'll miss her characters a great deal unless they are picked up by someone who really understands them.
What was wank-y about three million clones fighting a war on a galactic scale?
--Jonah
Uhhh....That was Lucas that said 3 million clones, not her. It was in the Star Wars insider guide to the Grand army of the republic. All KT did was go along with it.
& if you read order 66 then you would know that she talked about ALOT more clones that were made and kept in secret by Palpatine. 10's of millions of more clones.
I hate pretty much everything post-ROTJ. I think it's all just a nightmare Luke had after partying too hard with the Ewoks.Like others, I'm just sick and tired of the Luke/Mara and Leia/Han and their kids saving the galaxy time after time after time... ugh... Honestly, I wished they'd killed off Luke instead of Mara... she was the least annoying of the bunch.
It seems ridiculously small for what Lucas describes as "a war that would spread like fire across the galaxy and engulf thousands of star systems." More people fought in the American Civil War. More than twice as many people live in New York City today. There were nearly 3 million casualties in the Battle of Stalingrad alone. In World War II the military dead numbered over 24 million. That's military dead, not the total number of combatants. And that's fighting over one planet, not a galaxy with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of populated planets. *shrug*
If you reduce "thousands of systems" to a mere two thousand, you're looking at a paltry 1500 troops per system regardless of the number of fronts in each system and nevermind the massive casualties described in numerous major battles. More than ten times that number fought at Gettysburg. & thus, I describe a galactic army of 3 million as a wank.
"Uhhh..." She co-wrote the article "The Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic" in Star Wars Insider 84 with Ryan Kaufman. That was Ms. Traviss. NOT George Lucas. Fact check, my friend.
Also, I've read Order 66, along with every other SW novel currently in print. I know all about the Spaarti clones unleashed at the end. I'm specifically referring to the Kaminoan clones that fought out the Clone Wars, not the Spaarti clones with which Palpatine established the Empire.
This has all been fought over and debated for nearly 4 years, and I have no desire to rejoin the fray. So, that's all I'm saying on the matter in a public forum. If anyone really wishes to establish a intelligent dialogue, PM me.
Regardless of any of the above, I will continue to lament Ms. Traviss' departure from the SW scene, and I will continue to eagerly await the last two Commando novels.
Last edited by Kerys; 08-12-2009 at 10:39 AM.
bwha ha ha ha!! the "klingon people" :P
never read any Karen Travis novels, don't know nothing of Mandalorians or anything.
I enjoyed most games of the Star Wars franchise. Except I never figured why in KOTOR the galaxy is about as far in terms of industrialisation as the galaxy is in the movies. KOTOR's gameplay rocked, it's setting was rather lame IMO.
That goes for most EU I guess... cloning the Emperor? what is this, Dragonball Z?
So what's the cartoon gonna bring us? Though I only saw the movie...
So... in terms of this thread, responding on Karen's leave... well... I don' t know what I' ll miss. I liked the clone squad in Republic Commando, I believe that too was her work?
I agree with RBF, even on the reading every book in print part. :P
It makes no sense, unless all of the clones had their own personal SSD's that they could even hold their own against the Seppies.
In all of the clone wars episodes, and even AOTC, we have seen A LOT of clones die, if that rate of casualties continued, they would all have been iced by day 3 of the "war"
Anyway, just my .02
Ah, I see, Kerys. You meant wank-y small, not wank-y large. Remember, Karen was seriously conflating the numbers given in AOTC. In the end, it comes back to movie dialogue giving us an initial army of a bit over a million, with no provision for more at the time, and the time needed to grow and train more would exceed the duration of the wars, so... *shrug*
--Jonah
Karen took a small idea and a few bit players & gave us a nice area of the Star Wars Universe to visit. I will miss her great story telling & her ability to make us smile, frown, laugh & cry.
Thank you Kar'buir. You will be missed.
I don't speak Mandalorian, and I've never read a Karen Traviss book. I don't know that I've really missed out on anything. I do agree that her books and "teachings" were turning Mandalorian fans into the Star Wars version of Klingons; I for one would be glad to see that fake toy language go away all, together.
I think you need to read her books...
Well, this is sad news... I have very much enjoyed her SW novels... more than any other SW novel author so far... and she will probably remain at the top of the SW authors for me since I am moving away from reading this genre for a bit... I am kind of Star-Warsed out right now as far as novels go.
I read her books when she was writing for Legacy of the Force. She WAS turning them into klingons. Some people can costume and still be functioning individuals, but some people get way too obsessed and start to think that they live a fictional lifestyle, speaking a fictional language. If you want to learn another language by Rosetta stone.
That happens with just about every sci-fi genre though, it's nothing new nor is it anything Karen started. The language was a nice way to dive deeper into the SWU, not just with Mandos but in general. Some people have different levels of fandom, there are MANY people that think we are all immature kids for dressing up it costumes.
Everyone's interpretation of what we do or what someoene else does depends completely on point of view, and Karen wrote about that by putting something as large as the Clone Wars into the eyes of a small group of people.
Not trying to pick a fight here, but...
If a language originated in fiction, does that mean it is strictly a fictional language? If it's a functional language, does it really matter? After all, fictional doesn't mean fake. It just means created.
All languages are created, whether they're written up by an author such as Karen Traviss or JRR Tolkien, or they evolve through a more evolutionary means.
After all, a language is just a system for encoding and decoding information. If it works, then it's a functional language, just like English, German, French, Spanish, and Japanese, no?
And everyone's lifestyle is fictional (i.e. created). You choose how you live your life every single day. Everything in the world around you influences the way you live from day to day. Just because someone finds a specific code or set of morals/rules to live by, does that make them wrong?
If I live my life according to the 7 core US Army Values, and I do, does that make me more "normal" or better than someone who lives their life according to the Resol'nare? I didn't write the Army Values. Does that mean I'm living a fictional lifestyle?
Being a life-long RPer, I love the more emmersive elements like a more fully realized culture & language. Do I want to be a bounty hunter? Not hardly. Do I think I'm a Mandalorian? No. Do I speak Mando'a at work? No. Do I occasionally throw a phrase around here or there with my friends? Hell yeah. It's a way to share something we love. Do I use it extensively in RPGs? Yep. Does any of that make me more of a geek than you? I dunno, and I don't care.
Big difference between inside joke between friends or using it in a RPG compared to to living that lifestyle/using the language as regular conversation.
Honestly I like how she describes Mando culture. It reminds me of the days when a deal is a deal. I have been known to spout a few phrases in Mando especially when it is impolite to say a curse word. Most people write it off a military speak or Gruntenese.
I could... but nothing would be accomplished by me doing so. Crazy nerds have tainted this hobby enough for me, I'd rather not indulge myself into the meat and potatoes into what makes them think the way they do.
Okay I have put a lot of thought into this.
She never even came close to making them klingons. In that respect all she did was build on the common thread of noble warrior that so may other authors have used. This Idea speaks to Men (and some women) on a primal level. She learned that story by spending time with people who live that life style, and these people are not fictional nor do they live fictional lives these are the men and women of the armed forces. It is this authentic voice that makes her books so engaging. How many forum members here are members of the armed forces, or civil servents who serve and protect? Im ranting now I need to stay on subject.
Issue two.
Not to open a can of worms but really the Issue here is George Lucas. I have nothing but respect for the man. That being said I think that he is going to far. This thing with the mandolorians is just the tip of the iceburg. Not to contest his rights to his intilectual property but when is enough enough. His property has no value if the fans dont buy into it. How many times will he change his story before we start to lose intrest. To this end how could he feel it would be less profitable to trash what is likely to be the ricest and widely accepted non canon back story for what ever it is that his ego cooked up?
Thats my two cents, and that is prolly all it is worth.
There's always going to be a wierder fringe to any hobby - Star Trek fans who speak Klingon, Star Wars fans who speak Mando, Role play gamers that take their characters too far, Lord Of The Rings fans who read Tolkien and learn Elvish. Odd? perhaps. Going to far? more then likely.
It's hardly the fault of Karen Traviss that some (and I do mean some) of her readers find that they enjoy reading her work and want to learn the language of the characters she created.
And yes, some have and will take it further but it's their obsession and not the fault of a writer who is simply telling a story. By adding the Mando language to her stories Karen simply added another layer to the characters, made them more 3-dimensional; it wasn't intended to start "the Cult Of Mando".
Many writers who use the occasional fictional word or sentence in their work will write it down to ensure it can be used again, this leads to a growing lexicon they can then reuse and expand upon at any point in future stories. It's not intended to be used as a day to day language, although some will always try.
Can I speak a few words? Yes, as it happens I can - I use it (rarely) when dressed in my Mando whilst trooping, purely to sound more exotic and other-worldly. Do I have whole conversations in Mando'a or talk to Joe Public in a language they don't understand? No, for me it's a prop, the words little more then a script used for a bit of acting. Nothing more.
Regardless of weither you hate it, dislike the people who speak it, you use it as a prop, or even claim to live by the fictional rules the writer created; it's hardly the fault of Karen Traviss.
IF her stories didn't contain the occasion word, sentence or phrase in a fictional language, would you read them? If one or two people didn't take the fictional culture too far (and be honest it really is only one or two) would you have a problem with Karen's use of said fictional language? If the language hadn't been closely contected to something you costume and do, would you be so upset by the actions of a fringe few?
What I'm trying to say is that dislike Karen's stories because you don't like the way she writes. Don't read them because you don't like the characters. Avoid them because you only enjoy those things directly taken from George Lucas's imagination - the films only. But don't blame a writer for the actions of the odd person who reads her work.
Her writing for Star Wars has been more mature, more exciting and more interesting then many (if not all) previous Star Wars authors. Her characters more rounded and three dimensional - in other words more real, then almost all that have gone before. Enjoy THAT, enjoy the universe she has helped flesh out that tiny bit more. Ignore the wierder fringe people.
I've read her other works, her Gears Of War novels and her own original novels and whilst I'll miss her Star Wars work, I'll still purchase her other stories.
I find it hilarious that a group of people, that spend thousands of dollars on a costume, have the arrogance to put someone else down because they went a step farther.
This is actually surprising to me. Because just buying a helmet or perusing the site for information, is way too far for most people. The fact that some people make a statement like 'seeing people at conventions that take it way too far' is amazing. You realize your at a convention? Already taking it way too far for the average person.
So I guess im curious. Do some of you make comments to your friends and say 'Yah, im selling this armour to these total losers that buy this stuff on the dented helmet. '
Because if so, let me know, so I can be sure to avoid you.
On the subject of Karens Work, I wanst sure I liked it at first. But it grew on me fast. I found myself more invested in the characters. While I found myself not caring so much about the language lessons, perhaps it does contribute. Im not sure.
Ill very much miss reading her work. Im not sure ill read another theme just because she writes it.
This thread is too bad really, on multiple fronts.
I'm surprised this hasn't turned ugly, it's still a pretty nice thread : P
I see your point and I actually agree. In a way that people want to add something to the Boba Fett fandom, that in itself is great!!
But to say going a step further with the language then the average Fett costumer that is mostly interested in just how detailed the costume is... I don' t know.
people will hang me for this, but I saw a pre-study once, of a painting done by van Gogh " the potato eaters"... Now the painting itself is a collection of " characters" rather then humans or persons. The pre-study however contains attempts at painting these faces as if they were real... And I tell you they were lame... I know loads of people that would do that much and much better.
Now if I see a Van Gogh with his... style... I always think... He went and did this, which was great and new at the time, let alone bold... but I always think... He wasn' t a very good drawer or a painter and so he did...this...
I think that every single artist, in whatever form of art or expression... let it be painting or music... should have some talent and hone his/her skills and master a variety of techniques before they are even qualified to do " their own style".
Without attacking or looking down upon people... I think alot of people engulf themselves within the "mandalorian stuff" and do " their own style" without having been far and wide to see what's... out there... what Fett is like, inside and outside. In the movies backstage etc.
So in that case I agree with the " klingon" statement which is also very common within " jedi" or " fantasy events"..
In case of jedi: grab a morning gown and hasbro saber and tada!! Qlucky Wokklie Okki Jedi Master is born!!!
In case of the fantasy events: Grab a plastic sword and a halloween black cape thingy and tada!! Elven King Ne' okBlakwaka Is here to Defeat Sauron!!!
That people are able to experience something they admire like this is incredible, and these people should go about whatever it is they want to do, bless ' m.
But I think that alot of people here, from TDH, who did a Fett costume they spend years on perfecting (which is indeed rather geeky) look a little strange at people buying a Rubies and painting it yellow with stripes, giving it names, speaking a language... while their costume is something you wouldn' t let your son wear on halloween.
However, they enjoy the Fett ride and have expanded it for alot of people.
My point is: the language isn ' t perse a step further and I believe 2 worlds of fandoms have collided here... which is only an enrichment for TDH.
Ooooooh! Look out! I'm a crazed fan! I'm a super nerd! Flee! Flee for your lives!!!!!
Heh. I dig Karen Traviss, more than just for her SW writing, though I totally dig that too. She's obviously spent time with people in the military, getting to know them, learning from their experiences. Her "voice", as it were, in the Republic Commando books, and as well as the Legacy of the Force books, is authentic. I really like authors who go beyond putting words on a page, and actually try to understand the people they write about.
I think that's why she inspires such avid loyalty when it comes to the world/people she created.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
