I'm sending this thread to the Argument Clinic
Andy, you know I think you do amazing work. And you know I enjoy hanging out, when I make it over that way, or our paths cross.
I don't like the shirt. I don't think it is a fair statement about the 501st. A lot of thought went into the decision to have a policy like the 501st has, and if you can't see why it might be 'ok' for the RL to have their policy, and it to be a MUCH bigger deal for the 501st to adopt such a policy.... then I don't think you are being 100% fair in that evaluation.
I support anyone's ability to make a nonviolent protest though, so if you feel you have to do the shirt run, then I guess you should have at it.
Keep in mind though, that you are violating the 501st Charter if you don't get get approval to use the the logo on the shirt, and the charter DOES have teeth when it comes to something like that. Your contributions, to the 501st, or not, I'd expect nothing less from the CS then to do internal charges.
I'd really like to see you find a way to protest that didn't impact your standing in the club.
Peace though, regardless man.
If anyone is looking for a list of known vader and trooper recasters, I keep a list on SWP.
Here are some of my random thoughts on this shirt issue as well as on recasting in general.
When I first saw this shirt (and still), I can't tell from the design if it is pro or anti recasting. The only reason I know is because he said it was anti.
As far as insulting the entire 501st. I understand that not all the 501st are recasters or recaster supporters. A good deal of them who frequent forums like RPF, TDH, or SWP are 501st and adamantly against it.
But the 501st people you see on these prop forums represent a very small portion of the entire group. You guys (most of you anyway) are the good guys.
Most of the people who are 501st don't visit prop forums and have no concept of what recasting is, or that it is even bad. Somehow the message needs to get to these guys. The only way to get to these people before they get involved and do further damage would be to have hard rules and regs set by the 501st as well as reputable prop forums. It's obvious that the 501st isn't going to generate a list of recasters, but if you are a new guy looking to join, and you hear about this recasting thing, it might cause you to look into it further before you plunk down cash.
The people I believe we should all take issue with (501st or otherwise) are the ones who ARE aware of the evils of recasting yet still partake and support it. In my opinion ALL the prop and costuming communities should shun these types. Not the innocent people who didn't know any better.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the sentiment that EVO is showing is that if you are part of a larger orgainization that believes in something you are totally against, then as a member by allowing it to happen, you by default take indirect responsibility for it. If you stand with them then you stand with their principles as well.
Kind of like a country allowing terrorists to hang out there, by giving them safe harbor, makes the leaders of that country itself just as bad.
Now as far the average citizens who live in that country, what can they do?
I would say, rise up, cause a revolution, and overthrow the leaders, or leave the country. And when you do leave, spread the word about those horrible leaders. Sitting idly by and doing or saying nothing can be viewed as enabling the problem.
It's sort of like if you don't like your country's leader, but not voting for someone else during election time.
Those with the sentiment that it is okay to recast another hobbyist's work (regardless of whether it is cast off original or scratch built) should not be allowed to be part of the prop or costuming community.
Pretty soon, no one will want to make or offer anything new to anyone out of fear of being recast.
Then all people will have is inbred old recast props. Nothing new, nothing fresh.
And that is AGAINST the spirit of forums like RPF, TDH, and SWP.
In the Neon City Garrison's leadership (the CO and his iron grip), the guy is just ignored. I don't think that he even knows that there is an issue with this guy recasting. A few years ago, one of our members purchased a Gino Stormtrooper suit, and before it was trimmed it was requested from the CO to make copies of the suit so that everyone could have one. Same thing happened a few years back with a Scout Trooper uniform that was purchased. I'm glad to say that neither of these "prop"ositions never happened, but that's just my telling of the NCG's standing on recasting.
I think that this shirt is to broad based. The 501st are not the recasters (even if they dont do anything about them) It is the actual recasters that are messing things up (or so it sounds like) why not make a shirt about buying from recasters or something of the sort?
I'm glad we can have a civil discusion and respectfully disagree. Cheers to TDH and the maturity level of it's members!
Why not create a shirt that says:
"Another 501st member who does NOT support recasting"
Then 501st members might actually buy it, wear it, and get your point across. Otherwise you've just created a billboard that nobody will ever see.
Last edited by Bubba Fett; Jul 6, 2009 at 2:53 PM.
So to try to make something positive out of this...
Has anyone ever tried to write up a "recasting and why it is wrong" message for the 501st?
We had a recruit in our garrison who very innocently suggested making a mold of something he bought online to make more copies. When told why that was bad, he understood completely and apologized.
I think Gino hit a really good point... the 501st is a big group, and a LOT of people there are NOT prop collectors, creators, or anything else... just Star Wars fans that like to dress up.
In that context, knowing the difference between an eFX, a Hasbro and a Clonesix is sort of beyond their level of interest. They just want nice looking helmets cheap.
But that's not to say that they are bad people. Some may well be, but most I think would rather not take something that has such bad karma attached.
Maybe the way to go is to write up a good, non-accusatory FAQ and see about getting it posted up to the Legion. I'm on the 501st web team, so I can post it up there for discussion if someone wants to write up the FAQ.
I am still hesitant to say anything other than ITS BAD!!! However...When artist like MrBungle take the time to hand sculpt stuff like his scout armor he should have the right to call it his...however, what legal recourse does he have? It was not his intellectual property. It wasn't his idea. However, if I was inspired of a picture of a Ferrari and made one out of clay and then sold them, what recourse would I have when someone recast the one I made? Its not a true Ferrari, its just a facsimile. In reallity Ferrari owns Ferrari and it ends there. When I yell and scream that he was ripping me off for using my hard work...It really loses its value in translation doesn't it? Let's give credit to the Lords of Lucas and be done with it.
I mean the arguement is that people cannot (or should not) recast something then pass it off as their own. Well what if I recast something then sell it for what it is? "I recast this BM lid and now I am selling them..." Well isn't that the ploy of someone just wanting money for their item or do they want the credit as well? I see it as someone trying to franchise Lucas material then want the world to come to their rescue when someone rips off the thief.
Please understand that I would never recast anything. It's not from a "moral" point but more from talent level. I don't have the time, energy or skills to recast anything. So I will continue to buy from my over talented friends and laugh at those throwing their trademarks on their friends' Ferraris.
from propsafe - korbanth is a recaster?
Ive gotten a few things from him and if memory serves me well i think i may know him...
although i be thinking of someone else who i know actually does make his own stuff but stopped a few years ago :/
However i do know that i have gotten items from this particular seller and the items were rather good vader items too :|
Ive been at work all day and just got back. I tried several times to post responses to other peoples comments but got side tracked for one reason or another. At this point, i dont even want to bother posting individual responses, because after some of the comments ive seen, People are twisting my views and turning this mole hill into a mountain.
For everyone that said this i supposed to be a fun hobby; i couldnt agree more. If this is supposed to be fun, then why are people taking this shirt so personally? ITS A COSTUMING CLUB FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!! Whos taking it to seriously, me or you? Its not like the shirt was supporting terrorism or anything like that. For anyone that took offense to it, maybe youre taking this hobby to seriously.
For any of you that feel that the 501st should police itself; Gimme a break. Ive read an email from a CO telling another prop maker that he "should be flattered that someone (a member of his garrison) is recasting his work". Great police work there coming from a CO of all people. Or another CO hiding behind the whole "no stance" excuse. His hands were tied. Yeah right.......
Its funny to me how passionate some of you about me using the 501st logo on the shirt. Telling me i cant use it because it belongs to the 501st and that i'll get sued for using the image. Well, how about if i pull the IP card on you?? They dont own it, just like i dont own the IP rights to anything that i sculpt. *** for tat, right? That was the whole point of the shirt all along. A little bit of hypocrisy exposed there for ya. Its funny how it all works for one side, isnt it? The impact of the shirt was made before it was ever even printed.
Will the shirt be made? Probably not by me, but the idea is out there and i cant say that someone else wont run with it. I definitely had enough interest in PMs to warrant a run, but i just dont need the headache right now.
Theres nothing else that i care to add to this that i didnt say in my post further up this page.
I think STG has the right idea. If we dont like something, let's not just sit here and complain, let's go do something about it.
EVO3, I dont think peolpe were bashing you for your shirt, I think they were just saying that you could be more concise with it to better support your position.
Let's all keep this civil folks! We arent attacking anybody, we are holding a debate about a shirt.
Recasters suck, by not taking a stance is allowing it to happen. I believe there was a day when recasters were found out and BANNED. Now it is just looked over. i.e If someone were trying to break into my house, I wouldn't stand there and say, I do not agree with nor do I condone such activity - sorry charley, you gonna get a beating, I got my family to protect in here. Same goes with other prop builders, I will help them as much as possible.
I personally find it IRONIC, Everyone is upset about a logo that doesn't even belong to them, it is LFL Intellectual Property, there is a stormtrooper in it as EVO has pointed out. The anger that some of you are so strongly expressing is being wasted in the wrong area, now you might know how a prop builder feels when you see someone copying and reselling your stuff. You should be offended when you see this shirt, people are out there messing up this community and taking advantage of others.
Recasters put out a warped distorted product most of the time which does not help the community but only hurts it. Get passionate about protecting your fellow trooper, who is in your club, building some cool stuff for this community. I would think people would want to rally behind others who help this community.
TAKE A STANCE!! What is so wrong with taking a stance, maybe the rules should change, how many prop builders are sick and tired of not being backed by the same people who make compliments of how awesome their work is. But when it is recasted, even when people know who did it, not only is that person selling to the same community - there is no consequences. No skin in the game, nothing to fear, and the recasting continues. TAKE A STANCE!! Change the rules, ban people who are hurting this community, not on this board alone, this one of many. But the recasters are out there and examples should made of. Or list of people who not to buy from. I wouldn't want to own a peice of junk, inferior armor because I wasn't aware of some recaster, that is common knowledge to anyone else.
I ordered my shirt, I think it will spark alot of interest as to why am I wearing it.
Last edited by Jangojedi; Jul 7, 2009 at 12:45 AM.
I agree with taking a stand, but to me this shirt isn't taking a stand so much as taking a shot. If the design was similar to what was suggested by Buba Fett there wouldn't be an issue of people being offended and it would still get the point across.
That being said I used to make replicas myself. I used to make Green Lantern Rings in metal. You think resin and plastic is expensive try silver. Well an individual bought one of my rings and started recasting it in resin. The jerk got caught by WB and was given a C&D. Guess what he did, Turned the dime on me and WB sent me one as well. Not only was I stolen from but was shut down by the same guy.
As you can see from that experience why I take offense to being lumped in with recasters.
I am taking a stance, one that says lets work proactively to change this policy not derogatorily like this shirt does. You can say it is aimed at the command staff all you like but it looks like it is aimed at the 501st as a whole.
Now in that spirit I invite members who wish the policy changed to start a petition, and those who are not members to join and help change the policy. We can all sit here and be Key Board Commandos and complain that the policy bites or we can be proactive in changing it.
EVO - I saddens me a little you have not gone ahead with the run; but completely understand why. In a way its done its job - its generated interest, debate and vitriol.
its a shame that this same passion seems to lack in the implementation of the 501 stance.
some have asked why target the 501 specifically? Well its cos its the 501 that you EXPECT it to have a more forceful stance. Same shirt at the RPF? Smaller costuming grps? does anything these smaller grps say or do impact on larger community at large - probaby not. By such a high profile, probably respected costuming club such as the 501 NOT taking action against recasting - I feel its like silently condoning it. Its conspicuous in its INACTION.
GINO - I may not always agree with what you say butcompletely agree with that....seems like the sentiment that EVO is showing is that if you are part of a larger orgainization that believes in something you are totally against, then as a member by allowing it to happen, you by default take indirect responsibility for it. If you stand with them then you stand with their principles as well.
Bubba Fett - nice idea abt the "Another 501st member who does NOT support recasting" slogan.
TK9135 - Nate, you always been good to me; with info, items and general advice ever since I was a noob. I get what you are saying mate. not sayin the rights or wrongs of it, but as always, even amongst friends its ok to disagree.
j.kast - I see you have experienced being recasting. What would have happened if you had done a Star Wars item. It got recasted by someone in the Legion whose identity was known. But not only your CO, but the leadership at large - all said :
"oh yes, its bad, we do have a stance which is to say its bad, but we arent going to do anythign abt it. sorry." that just doesnt seem right does it?
but again - you have every right to an opinion.
I am not a member of the 501 - but I would support your petition; point me in the right direction mate.
In all honesty, I think this is kind of a joke.
Everyone here who has a post count of more than 2 understands recasting. We all know its the so-called "Shadowlands" of the prop community.
You have the grey areas, and then you have the RED ZONES. And as you can see, all those issues have come up in this thread.
We now understand the 501st's stance on Recasting within its community.
But really, you are making the biggest fuss over something. If this weren't about a costuming organization, maybe a Worker's Union, then I could see the reason for such a call to arms or a petition.
But seriously. You want to get to the nitty gritty. YES, we are all here commiting infringement.
But the biggest thing, is, and I'll probably get flamed for this (which I'm not really worried about it) but seriously, the biggest issue is prop makers are making money off this stuff.
THAT is why C&D's are given by LFL, and other companies. You think the prop makers in THIS community don't make a buck off this. There are select few members here who really do offer their products at just a few pennies over cost, but the exceeding majority make good money off their wares. I have made items myself. Then I have cast them up and I've seen the production costs. But to see similar items going for 3 or 4 times what the cost of production for ONE of those items, is a little much.
Which none is to say they are not deserving of it. It takes serious talent and time to do what the artists here do. We should all be very fortunate that they would share their talents with us. But there will ALWAYS be someone else that will know they can recast it, and sell it for less, undercutting our original maker for a quick buck as well.
Look at the Automobile. Karl Frederich Benz was the first person to create a Gasoline powered combustion engine placed on a carriage. Which that model was copied by Daimler, which was further copied by Selden, which was then copied by Duryea, which was then used by Henry Ford.
And from on and on. Same item. But someone took the piece and rebuilt it and sold it for less.
But you guys are getting in an uproar because ONE club decides that they will not take action against a "proven recaster". It is just silly guys. Do you guys really care how many times the FX suit has been recast and sold by various people around the world?
I feel, and this is just my opinion so take it at face value, but I think the 501st doesn't hold a stance on the issue due to their place with LFL. They are a group who LFL goes to exclusively for any events they hold. Do I think Uncle George cares about us making the costumes and he doesn't get a profit? NO. Do I think his lawyers who will make more money if they sniff out the infringing parties care? YES.
So I think that by taking a stance against the 1 or 2 people who openly recast someones sculpts/work its kind of nit picking.
Lets put this into perspective. Should the 501st then take a stance against any prop makers who recieve a C&D from LFL? They have been issued a warning by LucasFilm to stop all production of unlicensed material. So someone who is a 501st member, and a provider of wares to the prop/costume community has been told, "legal action will be taken against you if you continue this", shouldn't the 501st take action against that person? Because now the 501st is condoning the illegal production and criminal activities of a person in their costuming group.
LFL knows who major Prop Makers in our community are. Don't think they do? Did you know there are members in the 501st who work for Lucasfilm? I know many a prop maker who have gotten a Cease and Desist order from LFL. Because they were making money off those designs, like I said...about 95% of the prop makers out there make illegal monies (and very good money) off works that aren't their designs.
So I think all parties need to take a step back. I understand that the stance the 501st takes might not be agreed upon with all people. But the powers that be, feel that its the best policy.
In all honesty, its things like this that made me decide to just forget about the 501st. I made great friends in that community, whom I talk to frequently, but the drama level is way too high. Its a COSTUME club. The basis is not "the charity work". You didn't hear of the 501st and go, "Ohhh man, they are doing such a good thing, I'm going to drop 800-1000 dollars on a costume so I can be a humanitarian!". You like Star Wars, you knew how cool it would be to be a stormtrooper/boba fett/vader/etc. It just so happened that this club takes part in alot of charity groups to help raise money. We are nerds...we all know it. So seriously...is there really a reason to get our proverbial cod pieces in a twist over this one thing?
LETS HAVE SOME FRIGGIN FUN PEOPLE! DITCH THE DRAMA! GRAB YOUR BUCKET AND DRIVE ON! HOOAH?