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Debate of EVO3s shirt design

  1. #51

    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    mrbungle said: View Post
    then the 501st should have a no recasting stance. by not having stance you are queitly supporting recasting.
    It isn't that the 501st should not have a stance. It is a matter of how the T-shirt addresses the issue. The problem of recasting needs to be dealt with in-house... on the forums, in the meetings, etc. It is the people buying the stuff that need to be in-the-know. Your average jo on the street doesn't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about recasting. All the shirt will do is air out dirty laundry to the public and make the 501st appear to have political issues. The issues are internal.

    I would say if the message is to be put out there then put it on the main page of the website. Make it a message to the potential buyers.

  2. #52

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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    3rd time lucky...

    darn posted earlier - but work firewall is playin havok
    long post before - cant remember it all - the gist of it was

    yes - the 501 does good work, no argument there
    yes - 501 does have a stance on recasting - albeit; one w/o a bite

    I would agree that in this case - inaction is akin to support. As it is often said, to allow a bad thing to happen, all it takes is a good man doing nothing.

    can the 501 police recasting - again I can understand why it cant. we cannot expect the 501 to chase up recasters with a legal stick cos we all thread that fine line. BUT - I would have at least expected the 501 as a grp to actively disuade a member from recasting by blacklist him/her - not cos its officially illegal, but cos its something our grp does not condone or support. Isnt it the cornerstone of all replica prop collecting?

    I mean proven recasters continue to post of 501 detachment boards - how can that be right?

    lots have said - you dont play by our rules - why join up or just quit? Why not apply that to the recasters then? esp.ly since the 501 has stated that - "the 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting."

    some have also said - you cant colour the whole of the 501 with the same brush. Well.... thats kinda wot the 501 leadership is doing to the majority of prop-maker-supporting-anti recasting costumer by saying " techinically its wrong, but we do nothing abt the recasters and take no stance if u knowingly are one or buy from one"

    another point had to do with why single out the 501 - well; cos it is high profile. cos it does do good deeds. If the 501 were to take a more hardline view, I am sure more people would sit up and listen; it should lend its weight to the prop makers which are so important to the hobby. As for asking for Legion permission - isnt it the same attitude then? If they expect the same basic respect, then why not ensure the makers have it as well?

    now to the topic of EVOs shirt - I echo CMNavy's comment - yes, its a little inflammatory, but hey its a bit of fun. And I support the underlying sentiment.

    as for keepin it in house - well; its sold only on a prop/costuming forum - sounds in-house already. the average jo certainly isnt goign to buy a shirt like this. Its to inform costumers and prop collectors ie our community.

    ".....make the 501st appear to have political issues. The issues are internal."

    appear? really? just appear? at the moment I dont even think the issue is 'an issue', internal/external or otherwise - at all with the leadership. In fact, in a way it takes people like EVO to MAKE it an issue and kudos to him for daring to stand up.

    I mean - how many experienced old timers take time out to make a stand against recasting? We all say we are anti-recasting; how many stand up and be counted?
    recasting - it happens, even more so lately it seems. but doesnt mean we quietly sit and take it? lots have already said that they are against recasting, that the 501 stance is soft.... well instead of shouting down EVO, some other suggests rather than just ignoring that the 501 (as good as it is in wot it does well) has a stance which lacks teeth.

    something I have always wondered - we all talk abt educating newbies (myself included) - well; why then do recasting threads get sanitised on detachemnt boards? isnt that why the arguments comes up and up again - no one knows the guys who recast, all the usual suspects turn up to give the good (and bad) views. Why are discussions on recasting are deleted.... ?

    EVO- count me in on a run. Last I will say on the topic - shifting to pm's

    thanks to every1 for keepin it civil and for the TDH mods for allowing an adult discussion.

    lol thats the short version

    Nate
    Last edited by Heatshock; Jul 6, 2009 at 8:46 AM.

  3. #53
    syldar's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    just wanna ask does using another as a base for a modification -
    say a faceplate but adding to it to make it better count as recasting?
    ive heard some say yes to this thats all.

  4. #54
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    syldar said: View Post
    just wanna ask does using another as a base for a modification -
    say a faceplate but adding to it to make it better count as recasting?
    ive heard some say yes to this thats all.
    I think you would find that most people would argue that using someone else's work as a base for your work would be recasting IF you then took the rworked piece and began selling copies of it.

    If you reworked a piece for your own personal use, no issue.

  5. #55
    formerly Sgt. Skirata Huntman's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    according to origional work , you have to change 7 things about an item for it to be an "origional work". Otherwise almost all historical art would have be considered "copied or recasted". look at all the original classic Nude lady on couch paintings. 7 things bro

  6. #56
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    so tell me, how is a newbie going to know they are buying something recasted? and once they do find out, are they supposed to throw the item away and the hard earned money they spent on that item along with it? what about all the effort and time put into it as well...??

    being an active member here, and becoming educated on different issues, ie recasting, i can provide guidance, information, encouragement, and the like to new members that havent been educated on these issues...is there anyway to inform everyone who the known recasters are, and make it accessible to new members? i know i would be ticked if i bought an item that was recasted, spent the time to build it up, paint it, and then apply to the 501st and not be accepted because my helmet was a BM, mystery, MR, or FP recast...that would not be cool, especially if i had no clue it was a recast...

    if the 501st was required to police blatant recasting, wouldnt they also have to police every item on a costume when it was being used to apply for membership as well? like, having to make sure that every item on that said costume was legit? i dont see that being possible...and maybe that is why they dont police it, because it would have to be policed at every level...??
    Last edited by FettDad; Jul 6, 2009 at 9:30 AM.

  7. #57
    cr4nky's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    Hereīs a good place to start:

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/propsafe/forum/922972/

    @admins: delete if itīs not ok to post this link

    FettDad said: View Post
    so tell me, how is a newbie going to know they are buying something recasted? and once they do find out, are they supposed to throw the item away and the hard earned money they spent on that item along with it? what about all the effort and time put into it as well...??

    being an active member here, and becoming educated on different issues, ie recasting, i can provide guidance, information, encouragement, and the like to new members that havent been educated on these issues...is there anyway to inform everyone who the known recasters are, and make it accessible to new members? i know i would be ticked if i bought an item that was recasted, spent the time to build it up, paint it, and then apply to the 501st and not be accepted because my helmet was a BM, mystery, MR, or FP recast...that would not be cool, especially if i had no clue it was a recast...

    if the 501st was required to police blatant recasting, wouldnt they also have to police every item on a costume when it was being used to apply for membership as well? like, having to make sure that every item on that said costume was legit? i dont see that being possible...and maybe that is why they dont police it, because it would have to be policed at every level...??

  8. #58

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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    kinda my point Fettdad - I agree it would be impossible for the 501 to police it. its often people like us, the individual fans and the prop makers themselves that do the 'investigations'.

    once its been 'proven' or found out that someone is recasting, why cant it just be a ban for that guy - based on the already stated 501 line of "the 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting." even if its based on a - thats not the kinda of behaviour we like on our group?

    thats what grates to be honest - no one has a problem with someone un-knowingly buying recast. we've all done it. definately wouldnt say destroy it; just work at it to make it decent again. thats ok.

    But once educated, once informed - thats a completely different kettle of fish.

    the 501st Legion does not condone, support, or encourage re-casting. It is, however, outside of the scope of this club's mission, charter, authority, jurisdiction, and purview to consume our time and energies as a volunteer organization in efforts to prosecute those who, of their own volition, choose to engage in re-casting.
    by not doing anything - there are certainly abiding by the letter of that statement, not the spirit.

    Its like saying stealing is a bad thing. We arent actively gonna stop someone stealing (and I dont expect you to - as u are NOT the police). the police turn up - caught the guy, show you the proof of the theft.
    You turn around and say - 'oh yes, murder is bad. but its ok we already made that statement. we will just accept him back into the community w/o any penalty at all'

    so - again - I dont expect the 501 to be the police, be the legal system, be the prison officer or be the probation officer. but be the community from which the perp comes from - and to say; what you did is wrong, we dont consider you part of our community/family any more thank you very much.
    Last edited by Heatshock; Jul 6, 2009 at 10:14 AM.

  9. #59
    jedi.paramedic's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    So just that I understand; when I apply to become a member of the 501st in my Fett costume I'm going to have to list
    Helmet = FP
    Armor = FP
    Gauntlets = FP
    Boots = cheng
    Flightsuit = LSFU

    That seems a bit ridiculous to expect the 501st to police who and where I bought my props from. I've been putting this costume together for the better part of 2 years and have forgotten from whom I may have bought a certain part from. But now someone, somewhere wants me to have a list of every part so that I can be sure nothing is re-cast and then present that information to the 501st so they can police my costume. Again, this whole idea sounds a bit impossible. I know I've spent a buttload of money on my costume so far, and would be very upset if I found someone was claiming that part of it was "re-casted" without my knowing about it.
    As with what FettDad stated. How would I have know who to purchase from 2 years ago if I didn't diligently do my own homework on who's who of prop building. If we keep thin "inside" then there has to be some sort of list that "newbies" can go to of who's who and what's what with "recasting" in the title.
    I hope this doesn't come off as to one sided, I do not now nor will I ever support re-casting, but I was very ignorant in the beginning of my quest for a Fett costume, and could have bought some items without knowing it.

  10. #60
    jedi.paramedic's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    This is the first time I've ever seen this. Is this for Fett parts as well?

    cr4nky said: View Post
    Hereīs a good place to start:

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/propsafe/forum/922972/

    @admins: delete if itīs not ok to post this link

  11. #61

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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    again - not policing Paramedic.
    there are known recasters are allowed to carry on in the 501 despite being outed as recasters. even some CO's who openly use that statement NOT to do anything - check this out http://forum.bikerscout.net/index.ph...pic=3882&st=20 ; post #31.

    thats what I dont understand. to on-the-one-hand to say its bad, but yet do nothing about proven recasters amongst its ranks.

    no one is expecting a new member to prove where their stuff comes from. like I said - if sttuff was bought prior to learning better, and it comes to standard, then its all ok. But to openly buy from a recaster is a big difference.

    to the 501ers out there - what would you do it YOU knew there was someone actively recasting in your garrison? Would you or your garrison like to be associated with him?

  12. #62
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    jedi.paramedic said: View Post
    This is the first time I've ever seen this. Is this for Fett parts as well?

    as well as me...first time i ever saw it...

    now, i dont THINK i have ever bought something that has been recasted...i have had the means to go straight to the source of the prop i needed and was able to pay big bucks for the best items...what if i couldnt have afforded it? what if i went to ebay and bought some stuff that was cheaper, not knowing that there was even such a thing as "recasting", and bought some items that i thought would be great additions to my costume, and then later realized i had bought some recasts? do i get rid of those items in fear that the 501st wouldnt accept me cause they were recasts and start over again? i dont think that would be fair...

    however, if i was able to be informed of such operations, and warned about recasters, that would be different, yes? what if there was a person making a Fett, Stormie, etc, that wasnt even part of a forum community like TDH? and never had the opportunity to be informed of such operations? should they be left out of the likes of the 501st?

    dont get me wrong, recasting is wrong, it is stealing, and lazy...but i dont think the 501st should have to police it...
    Last edited by FettDad; Jul 6, 2009 at 10:43 AM.

  13. #63

    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    Sgt. Skirata said: View Post
    according to origional work , you have to change 7 things about an item for it to be an "origional work". Otherwise almost all historical art would have be considered "copied or recasted". look at all the original classic Nude lady on couch paintings. 7 things bro
    Never heard of the "7 things" thing, but I know I have reworked existing things to the point of - well, being a good deal past "7 things" different. On casual counting, I get about 15 changes on the forward part of the face alone for my RotJ Vader... and that is from the ANH version I modified from an existing mask some years before... having made a good number of changes to that as well (I started with something that looked like it had been modified to be less accurate, rather than the other way round). I guess if you want to come down to it, I essentially just rebuild the whole dang thing. If this "7 things" thing is for real then I guess I'm safe.

    Oh, I should also note that when I received the casting I started with it was with the understanding that I would do work on it in TRADE for the right to do as wished with castings I made for myself. I was not paid for the work, I was essentially given the go ahead to make it my own... which I did.

    Anyway, enough about that.
    Last edited by Gypsyboy; Jul 6, 2009 at 11:05 AM.

  14. #64
    I helped at SDCC '08 NovallTalon's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    I understand the meaning completely, and I do sympathize with it. However within the community it has the potential to imply a false meaning to those who don't understand exactly what it's true meaning is. The average joe con-goer probably isn't going to even understand the shirt from the get-go. I think this shirt is just going to set an enormous amount of people up with an enormous amount of drama.

    If the shirt is causing this much debate here on TDH, I can't even imagine how much of an issue it must be in the Legion. I know how easy it is for many on the legion council to get their collective panties in a wad...so I bet July is going to be one rough cell-phone bill for a few peeps. My personal opinion on this is that if you don't like where the current leadership is going with the recasting policy, then you have less than 6 months and you can vote in new leadership.

    Well, I'll tell you guys from personal experience: It's darn hard to enforce an active recasting policing policy, even in the smaller groups. Our policy in Mercs is that we don't condone or approve of it, we also don't police it, however if evidence is brought forward by a member then an investigation is launched and the guilty parties are punished with and up to membership termination.

    Our main combat device against recasting is through educating our hopeful members (which is why we allow unofficial members on our boards), and by making reference and tutorial material easily accessible. The only way you can combat things like buying recasted material on ebay is to nip it early when the newbie has questions.

    Proper guidance and access to the right references and guides are what is going to win out over spending resources trying to combat something that will most likely continue to plague the costuming community.

  15. #65
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    Heatshock said: View Post
    again - not policing Paramedic.
    there are known recasters are allowed to carry on in the 501 despite being outed as recasters. even some CO's who openly use that statement NOT to do anything - check this out http://forum.bikerscout.net/index.ph...pic=3882&st=20 ; post #31.

    thats what I dont understand. to on-the-one-hand to say its bad, but yet do nothing about proven recasters amongst its ranks.

    no one is expecting a new member to prove where their stuff comes from. like I said - if sttuff was bought prior to learning better, and it comes to standard, then its all ok. But to openly buy from a recaster is a big difference.

    to the 501ers out there - what would you do it YOU knew there was someone actively recasting in your garrison? Would you or your garrison like to be associated with him?
    ok, so what we are saying here is having known recasters within the ranks being allowed to continue to recast others' work? ya, that aint right...
    but like others have said, the shirt is misleading in the essence that it makes all 501st members look like recasters and support recasting...and i cant believe that that is true...
    Last edited by FettDad; Jul 6, 2009 at 11:28 AM.

  16. #66
    formerly LOPERO Scoutleader's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    I have a question for EVO3 regarding the selling of these shirts and forgive me if I have overlooked this.
    Are these shirts going to be sold at cost or at a profit (regardless of the ammount)?
    I mean no disrespect with that question but I was wondering what you were going to do with the sells from this shirt,other than getting the word out about "recasting".
    I support your cause but think using the 501st solely might be wrong to lump one group in a catogery as being recasters

  17. #67
    Admin Staff webchief's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    Perhaps it IS time for the 501st to change it's policy but this is certainly not the way to go about doing it.

    Not only do I find the shirt to be misrepresentative, I also find it to be insulting. In affect you're lumping me in with folks who re-cast and I don't take kindly to that assumption.

    Not only that, you don't have permission to use the 501st logo Evo. I'd suggest against doing so.

  18. #68
    TK-9135's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    Haven't posted here in a long long time. But I felt the need. Seems we all want to talk about this all the time. Well...

    Evo... Your work is awesome. You do great clone stuff and the hero belt parts you cranked out on the FISD are unmatched.

    BUT

    Even your integrity was questioned. On a stupid found part. (dumb huh)

    Here is the thing that gets missed.

    All of this... TDH, RPF, 501st... Every part, fan sculpted, cast from real, every part is Gorges. (heard that before right?) His willingness to look the other way lets this exist. To have "prop makers" making the rules on what is and isn't allowed in theory (and less violent) is just like Al Capone deciding who sells the whiskey in Chicago circa 1920.

    Bootleg.

    Then add in the fact that Gorge him self led a marching, waving, cadence filled parade of copyright infringement for national TV. If its all right with the man, why do the prop guys care?

    Money.

    I know I know... Time and effort and out of pocket money to make stuff available. I am doing a Vader lid. Not an easy chore. Down right nerve racking. Can I stop some guy from recasting it? Nope. Many see this as a business opportunity. Free money. Little in, bunch out. Those are all over eBay shilling ****. I despise those that recast Legion members. Talk about smiling while the dagger is twisted. There rep goes in the toilet, never to return. Public opinion is far stronger than any policy. Its the person... Not the prop.

    I love it when some one says recasting is stealing. From Whom? The prop guy? Prove it. Take the guy that stole your stolen property to court and tell that it a judge. Mythbusters flew the lead balloon, but I have yet to see a snow ball in hell. Thems your chances.

    If this stuff is that important to you, get a license and have the LFL legal team run out your competition. No one talks about that angle.

    On another note. Its great to bash the 501st, but face it, with out them who would the majority of this stuff be sold too? Almost all the prop guys sell on 501st boards. Umm... What? There scum right? That is what the shirt says.

    No market, no need for stuff.

    So lists are made. Do not sell to this guy... that guy... So be it. The 501st dosent want that hassle. Even the Propsafe forum gets to be hear say. This all boils back to personal opinion, and opinions are like ********. Everyone has one and they all stink. I know I have landed on a few do not sell lists because I support people, not stuff.

    Here is another one for the fire...

    What if a "good prop guy" goes rogue? Takes your money? Who is going to fight for you...

    Short list.

    No one. Its bootleg.

    Could have made this statement in so many other ways.
    Last edited by TK-9135; Jul 6, 2009 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Spelling... Yeesh

  19. #69
    mrbungle's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    and there is the pro recast remarks.

  20. #70

    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    mrbungle said: View Post
    i can already see where this is going.
    recaster: you don't own the intellectual rights to the helmet
    prop maker : but i took my time and money to sculpt this helmet and i feel it is wrong for you to make copies of it.
    recaster: i don't care!!
    i don't own the intellectual property rights to this helmet:



    i took my time and money to sculpt this helmet (and visor), but i don't actually care if you make copies of it.

    i may well be the only "prop maker" to feel this way, but i really don't.

    why you ask?

    i made it for fun, because i wanted one, and i wanted to be able to make them for my friends. if someone recasts my helmet, that's not going to have any impact on my ability to make helmets for myself and my friends.

    in my mind, all arguments against recasting come back to cutting into the cash flow of the prop makers.

    i can honestly say that i'm not in it for the money, so i have nothing to lose by people recasting me.

    i FULLY support the 501st stance on recasting. they are a costuming club, not a regulatory body. they don't need to be bothered by that sort of thing. they are there to play dress up and that's it.

  21. #71
    TK-9135's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    Ya know bungle, I don't have anything against you. You were part of the fallout on the BSN. I know your stance.

    Just difference in opinion.Read a cool line on the RPF.

    "Time to put on the big boy pants and get a license."

    How many prop guys are there? Not to many really create anything. A handful. Support the good ones. Be informed. Trust is better than quick and easy.


    I too am soon to release a Fan made prop. Lots of hard work from 2 people. The sculptor and the mold maker.



    Still bootleg. I cant do a license, so I cant complain when its recast.

  22. #72
    Wildabeast's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    Doesn't it all come down to the pedigree of the prop in question. If the orgininal prop makers can give a cert of auth, or put in some sort of mark that is hard to copy, and resellers pass on the cert or at least be honest with where and whom they got the prop from in the first place then recastng would diminish significantly. This isn't a fight betwen the creators, sellers, and the consumer, but that of integretity of those in the community.

    Also, there is the problem of ebay, recently I went looking for a Stormie and being of very limited budget I hit ebay. When looking up armour I found a shop from the UK that seller complete kits for around $300 shipped, approx, well heck yeah if I had the cash I would go that way and fix the flaws. Looking more I found the FX armour, and it was $1400 + sh, no freaking way. Then there are those selling there personal armour asking an arm and a leg. Man that $300 recast is looking better and better, if you get my point.

  23. #73

    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    now, to be fair, i also think it's a cool idea to document recasters so that people can make an informed decision. if someone wants to buy a recast, that's his/her choice. but i do think it's a good idea to enable informed choices.

  24. #74
    Wildabeast's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    stormtrooperguy said: View Post
    now, to be fair, i also think it's a cool idea to document recasters so that people can make an informed decision. if someone wants to buy a recast, that's his/her choice. but i do think it's a good idea to enable informed choices.
    I completely agree, but who then is responsible for this "black listing" of these prop makers, and who makes the descision of whom is on the list. Great idea but unmanageable. Legit prop makers need to set up sites instead of relying on the Forums, and true buyers and costumers need to educate themselves. Casual buyers, those looking for a Halloween costome, will never care.....

  25. #75
    Jango's kid's Avatar
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    Re: Debate of EVO3s shirt design

    webchief said: View Post
    Perhaps it IS time for the 501st to change it's policy but this is certainly not the way to go about doing it.

    Not only do I find the shirt to be misrepresentative, I also find it to be insulting. In affect you're lumping me in with folks who re-cast and I don't take kindly to that assumption.

    Not only that, you don't have permission to use the 501st logo Evo. I'd suggest against doing so.
    Yup!!!!!!

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