salamanderking
Hunter
hi,who is class of 1984 on ebay?because he is selling boba helmets with fp ?? on it??
Class of 1984 on ebay
- Thread starter salamanderking
- Start date
salamanderking
Hunter
ahhh ok thanks
killerkeith
New Hunter
Can we STOP giving this person attention? A simple search would show who this person is, as he/she is mentioned in posts here more than they should be - negative attention is better than no attention.
salamanderking
Hunter
he have 300 good comments on his ebay Name and the Pictures are looking ok so far. why he is useing the fp sing??can fp or asok make nothing against him?
intwenothor
Well-Known Hunter
I have no problem with him asking either but maye a sticky of sellers to avoid might help?
FP and ASOK have nowhere to go. It's the grey area within the grey area. They are themselves breaching copyright and making money on that breach which is why the recasting debate is such a messy area and every case is invariably judged on its own merits or lack thereof. As for the quality of these casts, that cannot be judged without someone being able to compare the two and that's a lot of money to invest for the sake of altruistic consumer advice. In general recasts are inferior to that from which they are derived although the degree of inferiority is certainly open for debate. Would I buy one of these? No. Should you? It's your money so go your own way but you could probably do better.
FP and ASOK have nowhere to go. It's the grey area within the grey area. They are themselves breaching copyright and making money on that breach which is why the recasting debate is such a messy area and every case is invariably judged on its own merits or lack thereof. As for the quality of these casts, that cannot be judged without someone being able to compare the two and that's a lot of money to invest for the sake of altruistic consumer advice. In general recasts are inferior to that from which they are derived although the degree of inferiority is certainly open for debate. Would I buy one of these? No. Should you? It's your money so go your own way but you could probably do better.
killerkeith
New Hunter
I see your point. I have to wonder though about the list of people who make these helmets - a whopping 2. FP and a guy who FP sold his old mold to, so the market is kind of cornered and the wait time is enormous. Let me be the devil's advocate for a moment: doesn't this shortage of helmet makers and their no hurry style of service drive recasters to do what they do? Not making excuses for them in any way.
intwenothor
Well-Known Hunter
KK, let me re-iterate that if we haven't already got one then a sticky on all of this would help. Secondly this is an interesting topic and without descending into the age old and broader recast debate and descending into the kind of passionate arguments that this topic inspires I will say that I think there are a few points worth considering. In relation to this particular seller it appears that there is a fair amount of positive feedback so he is obviously filling a market where people have money to spend and those people seem happy. There may be a number of reasons for that including the wait times you cite but it could easily be lack of wider awareness of what is out there and better, the issues of recasting, or a desire to spend less money on the product (although personally I tend to think of this as a false economy in most cases). This seller makes a GMH recast but as that is from a single source let's leave that one to one side and consider the MR derivatives as a far more widely available piece. I'm not advocating people buy from this seller (or any seller for the purpose of this thread).
In relation to the MR recasts I believe there are three makers of good quality recasts from the MR source of helmets; FP, Animefan and RS Propmasters. To my knowledge all have wait times. I do not know the wait times for each. In this case FP corrected and recast a production helmet, RSP used a MR prototype and Animefan uses a mold made by FP IIRC. I can't see any reason why another couldn't do what FP did and create their own molds from a production MR lid as expired licenses are widely seen as fair game. I'm not saying someone should but that someone could.
I might add that I'm not sure that the there is a no hurry style of business, I simply think the sellers have difficulty keeping up with the demand. This is essentially garage industry with one or two operators producing these items and laying a quality fibreglass helmet is not quick to do. Another seller, Bobamaker, can often quote year long wait times. I think if it were more than a garage industry that the license holder and Disney would take considerably more interest than they do. To be honest I'm surprised hasn't become more of an issue with Disney having taken things over except for in the UK, of course, where there is clear legal precedent that provides some protection (whatever your feelings on it it's there).
For the sake of completeness I'll say that former MR director Steve Dymszo has made his feelings quite clear on the matter of recasting MR props and he clearly doesn't like it (something about hunting people down and gutting them like fishes). I don't really have a take on that matter one way or another. I bought a MR SE Boba Helmet in 2008 and I bought one of Asok's recasts in 2012. Both had pluses and both had minuses.
I've always liked this video, first posted a couple of years ago: "The grey area within the grey area". It doesn't really answer any questions but is certainly more palatable than the hundreds of old threads on recasting that are out there.
Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project - Recasting - 11/27/2012 - Tested
- - - Updated - - -
On a lighter note, check this out:
http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f22/enjoy-53308/
In relation to the MR recasts I believe there are three makers of good quality recasts from the MR source of helmets; FP, Animefan and RS Propmasters. To my knowledge all have wait times. I do not know the wait times for each. In this case FP corrected and recast a production helmet, RSP used a MR prototype and Animefan uses a mold made by FP IIRC. I can't see any reason why another couldn't do what FP did and create their own molds from a production MR lid as expired licenses are widely seen as fair game. I'm not saying someone should but that someone could.
I might add that I'm not sure that the there is a no hurry style of business, I simply think the sellers have difficulty keeping up with the demand. This is essentially garage industry with one or two operators producing these items and laying a quality fibreglass helmet is not quick to do. Another seller, Bobamaker, can often quote year long wait times. I think if it were more than a garage industry that the license holder and Disney would take considerably more interest than they do. To be honest I'm surprised hasn't become more of an issue with Disney having taken things over except for in the UK, of course, where there is clear legal precedent that provides some protection (whatever your feelings on it it's there).
For the sake of completeness I'll say that former MR director Steve Dymszo has made his feelings quite clear on the matter of recasting MR props and he clearly doesn't like it (something about hunting people down and gutting them like fishes). I don't really have a take on that matter one way or another. I bought a MR SE Boba Helmet in 2008 and I bought one of Asok's recasts in 2012. Both had pluses and both had minuses.
I've always liked this video, first posted a couple of years ago: "The grey area within the grey area". It doesn't really answer any questions but is certainly more palatable than the hundreds of old threads on recasting that are out there.
Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project - Recasting - 11/27/2012 - Tested
- - - Updated - - -
On a lighter note, check this out:
http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f22/enjoy-53308/
MLS
Active Hunter
When it comes down to it, at the end of the day- quality of cast and lead times aside; recasters should never be supported. It doesnt matter if their lead times are less or their prices are cheaper. FP & ASOK both invested their time and money to 1) purchase their MRs, 2) alter their MRs, and 3) hold a level of quality.
This recaster simply took their work and dumped silicone on it. Whether the "grey area" exists in this case or not it's irrelevant. Nothing is stopping this guy from buying his own MR and making the revisions. Instead he stole completed work, and hasnt put the time or money into it the same as the other producers of MR buckets. The level of blatant carelessness for ethics displayed by this guy is clear as the FP logo he didnt even bother to try to remove. That alone tells you a few things. 1. It's a blatant recast. 2. He doesn't care if you know he's a recaster or not. 3. He's trying to capitalize on FPs name.
It doesnt matter if this guy was selling top quality casts for $50- I wouldnt buy from him out of principle. He's a thief, nothing more.
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killerkeith
New Hunter
You do realize that I never said I condoned what the recaster does, right? I simply questioned their existence as a product of a closed community of makers, all of whom make it difficult to obtain what the recaster makes easy. Secondly, this fallacy of recasters necessarily producing an inferior product; well while that is usually true, it isn't necessarily the case. It is as if the act of being a recaster isn't sinister enough so people have to attach stronger labels to it - and not surprisingly, the people who shout the loudest are often the ones who are selling them "legitimately".
I myself tried to obtain an FP repeatedly, but alas the man was too busy to ever respond to me. The other seller I felt had an attitude about asking about the ETA of my helmet. Something someone who plunks down $200 US should have a right to do. So I went with Bobamaker, who has a huge lead time as well, but I happened to luck out. I chose not to go with the recaster but someone I felt had a reason to ask for the money he did.
I myself tried to obtain an FP repeatedly, but alas the man was too busy to ever respond to me. The other seller I felt had an attitude about asking about the ETA of my helmet. Something someone who plunks down $200 US should have a right to do. So I went with Bobamaker, who has a huge lead time as well, but I happened to luck out. I chose not to go with the recaster but someone I felt had a reason to ask for the money he did.
intwenothor
Well-Known Hunter
KK, I'm not sure if you're addressing MLS, me, or everyone but either way it doesn't matter; you've walked into the age old bear trap of starting a discussion directly related to recasting and that is territory where angels fear to tread! In this thread I have done my very best to make my responses as guarded and non committal as possible and tried to stick only to those things which are factual rather than subjective (other than wondering why Disney hasn't waded further in yet). It's all good and the cat is out of the bag now so let's rumble on with and further the discussion.
Whilst I was still in my lurking days back then I seem to recall that recasting the MR did not leave FP free from grief and there were many who questioned it but it won through in the end no doubt influenced by a number of factors e.g. it was done well (and corrected that awful pinch), there were more people wanted a MR than there were MRs available or could afford one, and it was clearly miles ahead of anything else out there. What seemed to really matter in the end was that it was okay because enough people felt it was okay and FP had a strong enough rep to carry it. I'm not on the fence here. I have a MR recast myself so I chose my bed. I also have the original (or did until I sold it). That allows me to address the fallacy you mention; I couldn't detect an appreciable difference in the details of my MR recast to my Original MR (except the pinch) meaning that the person that recast it obviously had the skill to copy it without significant loss. In this case I believe the first person to offer that corrected MR was FP. There's nothing to say that an equally skilled person couldn't produce a high quality recast of his high quality recast. I'm not advocating the idea of recasting but I do agree a recast could be of sufficient quality to look good. I have seen well executed recasts before. This does not speak to the moralityof high quality recasting merely the feasibility. However it is generally the case, particularly with ebay, that the recast is not as good as the thing it was derived from and that is often because the recast is many generations from the original source and normally everyone in that chain isn't that highly skilled. Other items were clearly recasts but not licensed replicas were previously allowed. I am positive I remember the Mystery helmets having a 'grandfather clause' applied and they adorned many a quality Boba build; the Genie could not be out back in the bottle. The video raises a valid point in that once an item is out of someone's physical control it's impossible to control especially if you don't have any copyright to it yourself. If I wanted a MR cast at this time I'd go with Aninefan (opinion).
I can't agree with MLS on the grey area being irrelevant in these cases but I do subscribe to these [edited] quotes:
"Nothing is stopping this guy from buying his own MR and making the revisions. He hasnt put the time or money into it the same as the other producers of MR buckets [and the] carelessness for ethics displayed by the FP logo he didnt even bother to try to remove.
1. It's a blatant recast.
2. He doesn't care if you know he's a recaster or not.
3. He's trying to capitalize on FPs name."
I can see why MLS might be so passionate on the recasting issue. MLS, as a producer, sells (mainly) EE3 replicas. These are based on real Webley parts. Real Webleys are rare and hideously expensive to acquire (I have one) and I'd be put out if someone who hadn't gone through the [years] long search to acquire the expensive source material was making money and inferior copies out of my hard fought battle; my point of view would be influenced by that. If I were a producer.
That was mere supposition. I have not discussed this with MLS.
I do think it's valid to represent the opinion of Steve Dymszo in relation of the MR recast and further to that the feelings of Lucas when he went after Ainsworth. I'm not speaking to the validity of the court cases that went with it or the rulings they produced. I don't need to (Lucas won in the US, where Ainsworth had no assets, but lost in the UK). Ainsworth was pretty blatant in his sales pitch and Lucas went after him, really went after him. I'm not trying to add another Ainsworth thread, we've have enough of those, but what is clear are GL's feelings on the matter. There doesn't appear to be a grey area for GL and to a lesser degree SD as a [mere] former license holder. For them it's out of order. For us it's grey because we want quality fett helmets with accuracy. This is probably one of the reasons that many of the talented [non UK based] producers have to keep operations small and supply cannot meet demand leading to the rise of the recaster.
For me one of the biggest arguments against recasting, with all other copyright, quality, and moral arguments aside, is that the existence of the recaster stifles our collective ability, as a community, to obtain quality, near source generation replicas of accurate production pieces as producers are fearful of letting some of the best stuff get out there because some toad will steal the product.
KK, there are many threads on recasting that will expand on this for you. A simple Google search yields many results particularly on the RPF as well as here and other sites. They quickly evolve into arguments which is why I posted the video because I feel it covers so much in an easily consumable format.
As I know this is an emotive subject I'll close this post with: I am not advocating recasting but I do enjoy healthy discussion and that:
On a lighter note again, have you checked this out...http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f22/enjoy-53308/
Whilst I was still in my lurking days back then I seem to recall that recasting the MR did not leave FP free from grief and there were many who questioned it but it won through in the end no doubt influenced by a number of factors e.g. it was done well (and corrected that awful pinch), there were more people wanted a MR than there were MRs available or could afford one, and it was clearly miles ahead of anything else out there. What seemed to really matter in the end was that it was okay because enough people felt it was okay and FP had a strong enough rep to carry it. I'm not on the fence here. I have a MR recast myself so I chose my bed. I also have the original (or did until I sold it). That allows me to address the fallacy you mention; I couldn't detect an appreciable difference in the details of my MR recast to my Original MR (except the pinch) meaning that the person that recast it obviously had the skill to copy it without significant loss. In this case I believe the first person to offer that corrected MR was FP. There's nothing to say that an equally skilled person couldn't produce a high quality recast of his high quality recast. I'm not advocating the idea of recasting but I do agree a recast could be of sufficient quality to look good. I have seen well executed recasts before. This does not speak to the moralityof high quality recasting merely the feasibility. However it is generally the case, particularly with ebay, that the recast is not as good as the thing it was derived from and that is often because the recast is many generations from the original source and normally everyone in that chain isn't that highly skilled. Other items were clearly recasts but not licensed replicas were previously allowed. I am positive I remember the Mystery helmets having a 'grandfather clause' applied and they adorned many a quality Boba build; the Genie could not be out back in the bottle. The video raises a valid point in that once an item is out of someone's physical control it's impossible to control especially if you don't have any copyright to it yourself. If I wanted a MR cast at this time I'd go with Aninefan (opinion).
I can't agree with MLS on the grey area being irrelevant in these cases but I do subscribe to these [edited] quotes:
"Nothing is stopping this guy from buying his own MR and making the revisions. He hasnt put the time or money into it the same as the other producers of MR buckets [and the] carelessness for ethics displayed by the FP logo he didnt even bother to try to remove.
1. It's a blatant recast.
2. He doesn't care if you know he's a recaster or not.
3. He's trying to capitalize on FPs name."
I can see why MLS might be so passionate on the recasting issue. MLS, as a producer, sells (mainly) EE3 replicas. These are based on real Webley parts. Real Webleys are rare and hideously expensive to acquire (I have one) and I'd be put out if someone who hadn't gone through the [years] long search to acquire the expensive source material was making money and inferior copies out of my hard fought battle; my point of view would be influenced by that. If I were a producer.
That was mere supposition. I have not discussed this with MLS.
I do think it's valid to represent the opinion of Steve Dymszo in relation of the MR recast and further to that the feelings of Lucas when he went after Ainsworth. I'm not speaking to the validity of the court cases that went with it or the rulings they produced. I don't need to (Lucas won in the US, where Ainsworth had no assets, but lost in the UK). Ainsworth was pretty blatant in his sales pitch and Lucas went after him, really went after him. I'm not trying to add another Ainsworth thread, we've have enough of those, but what is clear are GL's feelings on the matter. There doesn't appear to be a grey area for GL and to a lesser degree SD as a [mere] former license holder. For them it's out of order. For us it's grey because we want quality fett helmets with accuracy. This is probably one of the reasons that many of the talented [non UK based] producers have to keep operations small and supply cannot meet demand leading to the rise of the recaster.
For me one of the biggest arguments against recasting, with all other copyright, quality, and moral arguments aside, is that the existence of the recaster stifles our collective ability, as a community, to obtain quality, near source generation replicas of accurate production pieces as producers are fearful of letting some of the best stuff get out there because some toad will steal the product.
KK, there are many threads on recasting that will expand on this for you. A simple Google search yields many results particularly on the RPF as well as here and other sites. They quickly evolve into arguments which is why I posted the video because I feel it covers so much in an easily consumable format.
As I know this is an emotive subject I'll close this post with: I am not advocating recasting but I do enjoy healthy discussion and that:
On a lighter note again, have you checked this out...http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f22/enjoy-53308/
Last edited by a moderator:
fettpride
Well-Known Hunter
Hey guys,
I'm not really here to participate in another one of these type of threads, as it seems that you good folks have it covered very well. But more, I just want to clarify some history a little bit. As it does make a difference in the products that have been discussed here, and the general impression it may leave on newer folks about me just being a simple recaster myself.
There are many threads that cover this, that have fallen deep into the annals of post history, and is understandably difficult for newer folks to find anymore because it's been 8 years or so. But for the record :
The off the shelf MR that I offered was indeed off the shelf, pinch corrected, as has already been said. It was offered up as a budget offering for $165. These particular molds were sold to ASOK, and of course recast by Class.of.1984.
So, what's already been said about recasters - "should have bought their own, did their own work, instead of this or that", is an argument that still does hold some water, sure. Depending on which side of the fence you're on there. Not a 'ton' of investment, not a lot of time and effort aside of pinch correction and molding was put into it, so I can see how some opinions border the lines of saying that I shouldn't have been so upset, because it was considered 'free game', and anyone could have done the same thing.
But, what hasn't been said yet :
1. There actually were MR off the shelf recasts already being offered by Mojofett, and several others, 2 years before I threw my own hat in with my off the shelf. That's why it was such a farcical argument at the time, when I was the only one pigeonholed and being blasted for being a recaster. When actually, it was the first time in my 10 years here that I decided to do anything like that.
2. My premium offering at that time, was not off the shelf. Although recast it may have been, the premium offering was more involved in acquisition, efforts, risk, and especially condemnation by certain groups. I took it pretty heavy. And that is the MR preproduction Prototype. The first ever offered to the general membership. At that time.
It wouldn't have been something that just 'any 'ol recaster' could have acquired on their own. And even if they were afforded the opportunity to do so, most of them, in all likelihood, would not have been able to afford it. This was a project that took a lot for me to offer the community. Not many could have or would have - again, 'at the time'. And if I hadn't offered it, it's very feasible that it wouldn't have been offered for several more years down the line. Contrary to the contorted nature of 'the grapevine' information highway, this was considered 'a service to the community', at the time. Like the GMH, in its own time.
The molds for this helmet, were sold to Animefan. Finding out that 'this one' was whored out by recasters, did hurt to see. Because of aforementioned investments, and heavy criticisms taken. The 'recasters' in this case, had the same investment as they did with the off the shelf, near nothing, and still capitalize off of it to this day. And it's the same with the GMH. There was a lot involved there. For Art Andrews in it's acquisition, for myself in efforts. Neither of these helmets should been lumped into the same category as the former (off the shelf). Regardless of your side of the fence, it should at least be appreciated, that there was a big difference. I hope that adds some value to the convo.
And a big thanks to all that have been supportive on the subject thus far. MLS, for your strenuous protective ideals, and Inwentother - you've been very neutral, and super informative.
Lastly, Killerkieth. I'd really appreciate it, if you would stop the snipes at me up here. No one has to be a rocket scientist to see that you've obviously been holding a lot of animosity toward me by reading your posts over the recent months. It seems you take a shot every time you get a chance. I actually sent you an email a number of months ago, explaining why you never received a contact from me. An email that went unreplied. Death and tragedy are usually forgivable. If you'd like me to forward it on to you, I'd be happy to do so if you provide me with an address where it'll be seen.
Thank you.
I'm not really here to participate in another one of these type of threads, as it seems that you good folks have it covered very well. But more, I just want to clarify some history a little bit. As it does make a difference in the products that have been discussed here, and the general impression it may leave on newer folks about me just being a simple recaster myself.
There are many threads that cover this, that have fallen deep into the annals of post history, and is understandably difficult for newer folks to find anymore because it's been 8 years or so. But for the record :
The off the shelf MR that I offered was indeed off the shelf, pinch corrected, as has already been said. It was offered up as a budget offering for $165. These particular molds were sold to ASOK, and of course recast by Class.of.1984.
So, what's already been said about recasters - "should have bought their own, did their own work, instead of this or that", is an argument that still does hold some water, sure. Depending on which side of the fence you're on there. Not a 'ton' of investment, not a lot of time and effort aside of pinch correction and molding was put into it, so I can see how some opinions border the lines of saying that I shouldn't have been so upset, because it was considered 'free game', and anyone could have done the same thing.
But, what hasn't been said yet :
1. There actually were MR off the shelf recasts already being offered by Mojofett, and several others, 2 years before I threw my own hat in with my off the shelf. That's why it was such a farcical argument at the time, when I was the only one pigeonholed and being blasted for being a recaster. When actually, it was the first time in my 10 years here that I decided to do anything like that.
2. My premium offering at that time, was not off the shelf. Although recast it may have been, the premium offering was more involved in acquisition, efforts, risk, and especially condemnation by certain groups. I took it pretty heavy. And that is the MR preproduction Prototype. The first ever offered to the general membership. At that time.
It wouldn't have been something that just 'any 'ol recaster' could have acquired on their own. And even if they were afforded the opportunity to do so, most of them, in all likelihood, would not have been able to afford it. This was a project that took a lot for me to offer the community. Not many could have or would have - again, 'at the time'. And if I hadn't offered it, it's very feasible that it wouldn't have been offered for several more years down the line. Contrary to the contorted nature of 'the grapevine' information highway, this was considered 'a service to the community', at the time. Like the GMH, in its own time.
The molds for this helmet, were sold to Animefan. Finding out that 'this one' was whored out by recasters, did hurt to see. Because of aforementioned investments, and heavy criticisms taken. The 'recasters' in this case, had the same investment as they did with the off the shelf, near nothing, and still capitalize off of it to this day. And it's the same with the GMH. There was a lot involved there. For Art Andrews in it's acquisition, for myself in efforts. Neither of these helmets should been lumped into the same category as the former (off the shelf). Regardless of your side of the fence, it should at least be appreciated, that there was a big difference. I hope that adds some value to the convo.
And a big thanks to all that have been supportive on the subject thus far. MLS, for your strenuous protective ideals, and Inwentother - you've been very neutral, and super informative.
Lastly, Killerkieth. I'd really appreciate it, if you would stop the snipes at me up here. No one has to be a rocket scientist to see that you've obviously been holding a lot of animosity toward me by reading your posts over the recent months. It seems you take a shot every time you get a chance. I actually sent you an email a number of months ago, explaining why you never received a contact from me. An email that went unreplied. Death and tragedy are usually forgivable. If you'd like me to forward it on to you, I'd be happy to do so if you provide me with an address where it'll be seen.
Thank you.
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