Discussion on Cannon or not ??? within the The Sarlacc Pit forum, part of the Community category; Is 'cannon' considered any costume that appeared in the proper
Is 'cannon' considered any costume that appeared in the proper Starwars films?
if this is the case then ppl could do an ESB Fett without the jet pack. In the scene where Boba is following Han Solo on the way to Bespin, he is sitting down and does not have the jet pack on. surely this means that this look is cannon.
what are your opiniomns?
From my time with the 501st, I believe canon means that it was seen on screen in one of the six SW films. If I'm wrong I'm sure some of my fellow 501ster's will correct me.
A lot of the LFL event's we do are canon, and that means if you can't point to a scene in a film and say "That's my character" then you would not be able to participate.
I have been to very few event's where a Boba had no JP, but I doubt it would be accepted just because of the scene where he is flying the Slave I. ( it does look a bit odd seeing a Fett with no JP.)
Last edited by TK-2177; 11-11-2006 at 04:45 PM.
I think that cannon means ended as the movie, but not exactly. On the other hand screen accurate means exactly. It is what I think.
For example with the draws:
It's screen accurate
It's cannon
Returning to the topic, reads the post of below. Jejeje
Last edited by KaanE; 11-11-2006 at 11:32 PM.
Incorrect. Cannon means a really big gun that shoots large projectiles.
: Sorry, it had to be said!
Seriously though, Boba Fett without a jet pack is not a costume accepted by the 501st for membership because its an essential and signature piece of the character. The only reason Fett didn't have his pack on in that scene is because he was flying Slave I and couldn't wear it. Are you planning on joining and then just driving all over the place in your suit?
I have argued against the 501st's stance about what is allowed and what is not for a long time because the term "screen accurate" is often used. Webchief finally made it all clear to me last weekend when I was in Boston. What the 501st is looking for is NOT screen accuracy, but signature traits. For example, when MOST people think of a sandtrooper, what are the first few things that come to mind.... backpack, big gun, pauldron, dirty. If we were going for absolute screen accuracy, not all of the sandtroopers had backpacks, not all had pauldrons, and not all had big guns. However, those are the stereotypical (or as webchief more tacfully termed it: "signature") traits of a sandtrooper so that is what the 501st wants to see because they want the public to immediately be able to identify a character. I think the confusion comes in when someone says the 501st wants screen accurate costumes. That term should not be used because it is misleading. The 501st wants stereotypical characters, and I have finally been able to see the reasoning behind it.
In regard to a backpackless Fett, I say, build a giant, mobile Slave I cockpit around yourself and send in your picture!
If you decide to make the Giant Mobile Slave I cockpit, please do a tutorial. I would love to see it.
Bob, that is hilarious!Originally Posted by webchief
Incorrect. Cannon means a really big gun that shoots large projectiles.
I've actually driven with my :jet pack on (but with my helmet off.) Trust me it is mighty uncomfortable ... don't try it.Are you planning on joining and then just driving all over the place in your suit?
It is a cumbersome concept the the cream of canon must coincide with the cumulative character of our screen crafted creations. In truth, the 501st concept of canon doth continue to create a deal of consternation.
What I mean to say that the word "canon" originates from the word for a measuring stick. In other words, it is a term to indicate what a costume is measured against.
The 501st "canon" includes the Expanded Universe and is not limited to only what is seen on screen. A comic based character like my Jaster Mereel and my Jodo Kast are indeed "canon" by 501st standards. There is however, an "old guard" who still believe that it must be a screen seen rendition otherwise it isn't canon.
All of that having been said, I agree that Fett should always require a jet pack. The funnt part is that I have had a number of comments on my packless Jaster inquiring why I have skipped the jet pack. The signature Boba look is being confused to make it the signature look for all mandos.
The Boba Fett costume I am working WILL have a jet pack to be sure.
p.s. I really, really like Webchiefs concept of "signature" as it is the only thing that makes sense of the 501st's costume reqs.
Last edited by Jodo_Kast; 11-11-2006 at 11:27 AM.
The best Ive seen "Cannon" and "screen accurate" defined is:
"screen accurate" is exactly like seen in the movies
"cannon" is anyone that sees the costume will know what it is provided they have seen the movies.
example an FX stormtrooper suit is cannon but not screen accurate.
Wish I remembered where and who I saw post this originally.
Mark
BH-4265
I guess I'll make a comment, hope it doesn't offend anyone. The 501st has its standards for the reasons already mentioned. Following those standards is what makes the 501st the best at what we do.
Yes Boba should have a backpack. My backpack won't be done for several months. So I won't submit pics to get my BH designation until then. Will I still troop non-canon events in my Fett? Oh yea.
I guess my opinion is with no jet pack its kinda half done, and even though the jet pack -to me- is the second hardest part to /build/purchase it just isnt complete without it.
It also irritates me when I see sandtroopers without jet packs. If you look in the movies, the only sand troopers who don't wear jet packs are the ones that are being thrown around. Obviously they didn't want the stunts to happen with the pack on.Incorrect. Cannon means a really big gun that shoots large projectiles.
Seriously though, Boba Fett without a jet pack is not a costume accepted by the 501st for membership because its an essential and signature piece of the character. The only reason Fett didn't have his pack on in that scene is because he was flying Slave I and couldn't wear it. Are you planning on joining and then just driving all over the place in your suit?
I've always enjoyed the look of the sandtrooper uniform except for one thing: the dirt.
As a former military bandsman, my units were always required to be 'spit-and-polished', parade-ready for every formation. I would like to think that the Mos Eisley squad commander would at least want his troops 'white' every once in awhile for inspections and parades. Since that is not the 501st norm, I decided not to pursue the sandtrooper costume. If I go white, I'll do the 'Death Star' TK, and keep my uniform parade-ready.
Sometimes all that Army training gets in your head...
I've always enjoyed the look of the sandtrooper uniform except for one thing: the dirt.
As a former military bandsman, my units were always required to be 'spit-and-polished', parade-ready for every formation. I would like to think that the Mos Eisley squad commander would at least want his troops 'white' every once in awhile for inspections and parades. Since that is not the 501st norm, I decided not to pursue the sandtrooper costume. If I go white, I'll do the 'Death Star' TK, and keep my uniform parade-ready.
Sometimes all that Army training gets in your head...
not to get too off track but i'm always irritated with sandtrooper costumes that are shiney white. Dirty 'em up! if you are gonna do a sandtrooper, do a sandtrooper, if not leave the pauldron and backpack at home.
and now back to your regularly sheduled thread.
But that's my point. They're not called 'sandtroopers' anywhere in the movie. They're just troops, garrisoned at Mos Eisley. They've got specialized equipment for that particular mission, just as our troops have specialized equipment in various parts of the world (flak jackets, goggles, knee pads, etc).
We have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we don't call them 'sandtroops'. They're just 'troops'. And even though they don't have to stand inspection every morning, I'm sure there are times when they're asked to be presentable.
The difference (to me) is that the SW troops are garrisoned in a sizeable city with proper housing, and therefore should have access to cleaning materials...including water, metal oil, and Novus plastic polish.
I mean, come on...they're weren't always dirty. They were nice and shiny on their first day.
Last edited by batninja; 11-11-2006 at 04:22 PM.
When I was in Kuwait we were required to clean our boots and make sure our uniforms were clean. With people sweating all the time our uniform tops would get salt stains on them and that was not acceptable, they needed to be washed, and our boots are made of suede and the knap needed to be lifted after all the sand and dust that got ground into them.
Psh, calling them Sandtroopers was just a reason to make more action figuresBut that's my point. They're not called 'sandtroopers' anywhere in the movie. They're just troops, garrisoned at Mos Eisley. They've got specialized equipment for that particular mission, just as our troops have specialized equipment in various parts of the world (flak jackets, goggles, knee pads, etc).
We have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we don't call them 'sandtroops'. They're just 'troops'. And even though they don't have to stand inspection every morning, I'm sure there are times when they're asked to be presentable.
The difference (to me) is that the SW troops are garrisoned in a sizeable city with proper housing, and therefore should have access to cleaning materials...including water, metal oil, and Novus plastic polish.
I mean, come on...they're weren't always dirty. They were nice and shiny on their first day.
It could be argued that the dirt was ground in damage from sandstorms and what not, and thus could not be repaired or cleaned. Plus...remember that Mos Eisley was the most wretched hive of scum and villainy in the galaxy. Any troops that were stationed there could easily be corrupt and or lazy and did not care about military appearence. Clone or not.
Also with Tatooine being an Outer Rim planet, they were probably not subject to constant military inspections from Officers stationed on Coruscant.
Plus...It's a movie. And you have to suspend disbelief in all movies. That's how Keanu Reeves was able to jump a bus across an unfinished chunk of highway. He just suspended disbelief and drove faster than 55 mph. That's all it takes, after all.
all i'm sayin' is that to be 'canon,' 'screen accurate,' or to have the 'signiture' look you gotta have the dirt. I have no argument that in real life that the troops stationed there would have their armor clean sometime, or even in the Star Wars reality they would clean it eventually. As we see them in ANH they've had a long day, they lost and went looking for 2 droids who went in different directions, they've been bending down to pick up pieces of said droids to follow their path (any of you guys with trooper armor tried that?
oh and btw thanks for your service all of you who are or have been in the military. You deserve all of our thanks and praise.
I've always enjoyed the look of the sandtrooper uniform except for one thing: the dirt.
As a former military bandsman, my units were always required to be 'spit-and-polished', parade-ready for every formation. I would like to think that the Mos Eisley squad commander would at least want his troops 'white' every once in awhile for inspections and parades. Since that is not the 501st norm, I decided not to pursue the sandtrooper costume. If I go white, I'll do the 'Death Star' TK, and keep my uniform parade-ready.
Sometimes all that Army training gets in your head...
Well, something caught my eye when they re-released the original trilogy in the theaters for the Special Editions back in the late 1990s. I hadn't noticed it much on my TV set, but on a huge theater screen I could see it quite well.... the normal ANH Stormtroopers had black smudges all over them...aka: weathering. Therefore, even the "clean" Stormtroopers were dirty! Meaning, if someone is wearing a prestine white Stormtrooper costume (which they all base off the originals they first saw in ANH), then even they are not canon unless they lightly dirty their "clean" trooper up!
the meaning of canon was discussed in last friday's forcecast over at tfn. although he was using it in reference to the expanded universe. according to the dictionary canon is: a general law, rule, principle or criterion by which something is judged. canon is the continuity of the star wars universe. it includes the films, screenplays, radio dramas and novelizations. these spin out of george lucas' original stories, everything else is by other writers. not sure if that helps a lot, but i thought i'd try to help.
All said and done, i was only making an observation. I won't be applying for my application until my JP is done
btw i personally think stormtroopers stationed somewhere like Mos Eisley would be rather lax and not look after their kit to same degree as a guard unit based on something like the Deathstar. Having come from a military background i can say with some authority that when in a combat role your kit does not get looked after the same way as in barracks (its clean and functional, but not always prestine). Anyways dirty armour looks better
BLASPHEMY!Anyways dirty armour looks better
BLASPHEMY!
Hey, I was on about Boba's armour
I think all stormtroopers look good, as a kid they were like gods to me. I think i had ever seen a stormtrooper in the flesh as a kid i would have wet my pants :o
I used to be a purist and personally only considered the movies to be canon (i.e. I rejected the expanded universe entirely)... but now Lucas has messed with those so much that you'd even have to make a value judgement about which of the theatrical releases, special editions, or DVD editions (or yet to be released Saga edition, Archival edition, and 3D editions) are canon. I was reading a wiki article the other day that points out that there were even differences in the 35mm and 70mm prints of the original theatrical films.
The other problem with my formerly purist stance are some of the LucasArts video games that are clearly endorsed by Lucas (even though several have continuity problems with elements of the films). So my new view canon is anything that's officially licensed by Lucasfilm or LucasArts. That leaves out custom mandos (as much as we all love them) for sure, but I'm not sure where that leaves Jedi. Afterall, generic imperial officers are certainly cannon, so generic Jedi ought to be also, even though people basically make up their own Jedi.
As for screen accuracy... let me introduce a question that's been troubling me. What is more screen accurate? To replicate the prop, or what the prop was trying to be?
Boba's helmet was obvisouly meant to look like metal... so is a helmet that really is metal more screen accurate than a helmet made the same way as the prop? Maybe there should be a different category like "realistic."
I was thinking about this a few months ago when the Real Gloves showed up on the scene. They look ten times better than what was worn in the movies, but as a prop replica, they're not accurate. So do I buy Real Gloves because I want my hands to look good, or do I painstakingly hand-sew pads on like the original props?
I doubt Lucas ever expected that twenty-plus years later, his props would tour the world, so that the fans could pick apart the costumes up close in a museum.
As for the helmet ssue, since usually only the wearer can see the inside, I doubt it matters. Besides, weren't all armor components in the SW universe made from some 'space-age' plastic alloy anyway? Since we can't replicate that in the real world, I'll stick with resin, fiberglass and styrene.
That is a good slant on this minefield of question marks. I guess at the end of the day as long as the general characteristics of the character are there, then it should be considered cannon. and lets not forget that this is just a hobby and should be fun
I have noticed that when i get too involved in a prop (ie making sure that every minute detail is correct), it tends to coincide with my stress levels going up. Seriously my entire personality changes and i become a real stress bucket (pardon the pun). Its then time to remember that the guys who made this stuff in the first place probably were not as picky as a lot of us. Still its nice when you troop and people ask to take your photo, kinda makes it all worth while.
Ah ha! Thats an interesting idea that I have pondered myself. Realism to the world of star wars or the accuracy of what you see in the films. We have only ideas of what they are sopposed to be, what their functions are, how they operate, but we will NEVER KNOW really whats its sopposed to be like. Its only presented to us so vauge, that we as the general populace have to decide for ourselves as to what it really is. We see Mando armor as a functional suit meant for battle, but we do not know everything about the suit to say "this is what this is used for, and this is how it works," and claim it as fact.
Its always appearences versus reality. We see on the outside battle armor, but we dont see realistically what its all sopposed to be.
I believe the term "canon" in this respect, is based on interpretation of the definition of "canon." Some think it means "screen accuracy," whereas others feel it means "something to compare such and such to." I dont know the 501st like everyone else here does, but Im sure their review board has a specific definition by which they judge. If they, for this instance, are going by what you see on screen, at any point in the movies, then you can technically go with out a jet pack. If they should say no, "because its not 'canon,'" you should point out that particular scene in which Boba is actually shown with out a jet pack. I can for instance probably apply as a Jango from the Kamino fight scene with out the jet pack, becuase not too much longer after he and Kenobi started fighting, did Jango's Jet Pack fly off and explode, leaving him without one for a considerable amount of time, much longer then the scene showing Boba. For them to say "thats not canon," is to be hipicritical by their definition, becuase its all shown on the films. :thumbup
-tubachris
(Much like what Shakespear did, did Hamlet have a relationship with Ophelia??)
Its kinda where i was coming from in the first place. Don't get me wrong though, i never mentioned the 501st at all and my intention was not to have a dig at anybody or any organisation (i want to join these guys soon, and definately don't want to step on toes). My original query was just an observation.
I dont mean to disrespect the 501st at all, I actually support what they do, but I cant myself be part of it yet. I'm just saying that if they did say that its not "canon," even though its blatently seen in the film, would make you think, "wait a minute, yes it is and here's the proof." Then again, your going against a board that says yes or no. The people behind the selection process have their own opinions on the matter, and that may influence their decision in many cases, however, Im not saying thats how they operate, because I am only assuming. I also imagine that theres even like a checklist they run through to confirm that you have everything thats sopposed to be seen, and thats probably where they get the jet pack argument. My opinion is that if you have everything, but no jet pack, you should be fine. I mean, look at all the other mando's in the open seasons comic that didnt have a jet pack, and those were not customs....
-tubachris
this is one near and dear to my heart.
i go for "what it wanted to be" myself.
i've mentioned this numerous times, but i'll say it again, since these are some of my favorite "trooping" experiences.
kids around 12 - 14 years old tend to be miserable at events. they are at the age where they still think you're cool, but don't think that they SHOULD think you are cool, so they instead want to make you look dumb.
so they ask you to shoot them, say your stuff isn't real, whatever...
my fett armor is all metal. not thin stuff... thick, solid, made by a medieval armorer. a kid comes up to you "that stuff isn't even real" and whacks you in the chest. then you see his eyes open wide as he starts shaking his hand, holding his now red knuckles.
or my tusken raider. i carry a 14 pound wood and steel gaffi stick. the point is sharp, just like a real one would be. at another troop, a pack of teenagers were doing that same sort of thing. hitting troopers, causing trouble. they came up to me and did the "yo, you gonna kill me wit dat thing?". i lowered the spiked end and poked him with it. he yelped, jumped back, and became a totally different person. they started posing for pics with us and being fairly decent people.
so yeah. i go for as realistic as i can. i've got a rubber fett rifle, but i'm thinking about getting one of the MRs to replace it, so that when someone asks to see the gun, they get a big, heavy metal and wood thing.
Yeah, living in Southern Cali with Universal Studios, wax museums, not to mention actual film productions, etc, I've seen tons of film props and my reaction is always the same... "I can't believe that actually looks real on film." Props always disappoint me in person.
I don't have the resources for metal armor, so I can't take it to that extreme, but "realistic" vs. accurate is an issue for my paint job. I think I could do a "more accurate" paint job using the topical method. It would look great on film and in digital pics... but I also know that my topical job would "look" topical in person. You'd be able to tell that the chrome paint was on top of the other layers (I'm speaking of my own skills, not the skills of master topical painters on this board). So if I'm going to go with a look that stands up to scrutiny, I'm thinking I have to go with a layered paint job even though it will be harder to control the accuracy.
On the question wether or not Boba Fett should have a jet pack to be considered "canon" or not can be answered by the following two pictures..
With out...:
With...:
Now seriously... which one looks tougher?
(btw Jet Pack curtesy of Swedalorian)
Last edited by webchief; 11-14-2006 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Post edited for language.
Is there a third option with green gauntlets? hahaha
No, good point there Swede. The jet pack is a very cool part of Boba. (great suit btw)
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