501st 'Level 2 Certification' Clarification for Vests/Neckseals?

Oh for the love of.....

I had plans top apply for tier3 with my ESB Fett...i had a new vest made by Batninja that i havent used yet as it was a bit smaller than my current one (on purpose..im losing weight) and i was getting ready to switch the armor over soon. So does this mean i need to buy a vest again? I can't really justify this now, so if this is the case, i guess i'll hold off on applying for the tier 3....sigh
 
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I think this type of stuff is going to happen until a final decision is made concerning the ESB CRL. While I do understand that it is a work in progress, there needs to be some sort of finality to some of the aspects of the costume. Since the CRL is based off of still photos, it's going to be near impossible to determine exactly what was used. Many different people can look at the same pic and see different things.
I applaud Major and Webchief for trying to get the ESB CRL updated, I can see how difficult it is to try to determine the finer aspects of the costume.
 
Well, i mean, i dont HAVE to apply for tier 3...i mean, its a costume, and its still B.A. I would like to at some point, but i mean its not going to affect my trooping it so its not THAT big a deal...but it will suck if ultimately thats what i have to do. Id probably have a hard time selling the one i have off too because technically it would be "wrong"
 
Well, i mean, i dont HAVE to apply for tier 3...i mean, its a costume, and its still B.A. I would like to at some point, but i mean its not going to affect my trooping it so its not THAT big a deal...but it will suck if ultimately thats what i have to do. Id probably have a hard time selling the one i have off too because technically it would be "wrong"

I never considered what new found accuracies do to the value of current costumes. Ugh. That sucks.
 
And was this new information ever posted in TDH? I'm simply trying to see where I missed the notification...

Hey Eric,

No, this information was never re-posted over here on TDH quite bluntly because I Major and I were busy trying to get that house in order. As the Detachment Leader for the 501st BHG Detachment, it's one of my duties to do my best to get those CRLs in working order. As you all know, Boba Fett is one of if not the most difficult and complicated costumes that the 501st accepts for membership. We've taken on the HUGE task of writing, editing, collecting pictures for and maintaining those CRLs. The fact that most of the information comes from grainy still photos over 30 years old is difficult at best.

Opinions change, information is leaked, information is dug up… "facts" change when it comes to these costumes. I'll be perfectly honest with you all, I've been working on my Fett costume on and off since 2001. I've had the same vest this entire time made from the tackle twill material that Chris Caudill (BobaFettish) found a million years ago and it was sewn by TK-409's contact. I can't even tell you if that's shiny or dull since it's weathered, old and since both sides have a sheen.

I think the most simple and easiest way to fix this is to either talk to someone who knows 100% because they've handled the real vest OR we simply remove the dull/shiny debate completely from the CRL. So long as it's made from the correct tackle twill material we call it good to go. That way both are accepted and no one needs to get heartburn over it.

I'd love to hear from Gino and Art on this (and the green vs. gray visor debate). I'll give Art a ring.

Thanks everyone… Just be cool and try to understand that these CRLs are a MASSIVE project to undertake. Have some patience, understanding and respect for those of us trying to get it straight.

Thank you.
 
Bob, like I told Major, we appreciate the hard work that you guys have put in for this. I hope everyone understands that trying to build the CRL off of old photos is very difficult at best, even talking to people that handled the suit wouldn't be a real benefit because they might not really remember anything about the vest.
IMHO, I think the idea you mentioned about removing the shiny not shiny requirement is the best compromise. This way people like Batninja, LS4U, Arkady, and others do not have to alter their manufacturing processes; as long as the correct material is used, it should be fine.
 
Thanks everyone… Just be cool and try to understand that these CRLs are a MASSIVE project to undertake. Have some patience, understanding and respect for those of us trying to get it straight.
Thank you.

I can only imagine how hard it would be, without actually holding the outfit, to pinpoint exact materials. I'm very amazed and excited about how far the community has come based on those grainy photos - How Raf got that 13 step chest display....I'll never know... :) That's just one example of the dedication of this community.

I like the idea of having a set standard for the costumes, similar to the Stormtrooper lines, and having recognition for those that want to attain a higher standard of accuracy. For the vest conversation, unless definitive info is found and agreed upon, I like the proposal of removing this requirement as well, and agree with Justin that it allows our awesome vendors to continue their work.

Bob, like I told Major, we appreciate the hard work that you guys have put in for this. I hope everyone understands that trying to build the CRL off of old photos is very difficult at best, even talking to people that handled the suit wouldn't be a real benefit because they might not really remember anything about the vest.
IMHO, I think the idea you mentioned about removing the shiny not shiny requirement is the best compromise. This way people like Batninja, LS4U, Arkady, and others do not have to alter their manufacturing processes; as long as the correct material is used, it should be fine.

Do we know who transports/handles the costume when it goes to museums or shows now? These sound like people that would be good to know as it would give more tactile information. A long shot, I know, but just a question :)
 
I think the best way is to remove the compromise and yet ensure the topmakers follow the newest requirements. The fact is that many of us have older builds that are considered the top of the line. So don't hurt the builders that help us.. Have them change to fit the new build, but "grandfather" the old builds in. We do their best to be boba Fett (my suit is at $4000 and rising), and have fought long odds to be here (with $4000+ Costumes made by hand). This hobby is less about "perfection" and more about the "persuit of perfection." I hope that TDH and the 501st are more about comraderie and less about perfection, because we are all about Boba Fett, not about a "picture."

I am here to be Boba Fett. I want the best suit made. The fact is that people have to make it based on pictures, video, stills, and popular opinion has nothing to do with my desire to be perfect. Let the operators and makers work before we lose this amazing resource for creativity!

I love you all, and need more help than I can give,

Long Hammer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'd love to hear from Gino and Art on this (and the green vs. gray visor debate).

Hey Bob I can help here.
All the visors for the fett helmets were smoke grey including the ESB hero. It was never green.
Reason we all thought it was green in the past was because of the way it appeared in some photos with tricky lighting (mostly the AOSW shots).


.
 
I think the idea you mentioned about removing the shiny not shiny requirement is the best compromise. This way people like Batninja, LS4U, Arkady, and others do not have to alter their manufacturing processes; as long as the correct material is used, it should be fine.

This, so much this... :)
 
Or perhaps making it a Level 3 certification requirement? I think I got the last BatNinja vest and neck seal combo with the shiny side out on the vest and the dull side out on the neck seal. Just arrived today...
 
Thing is its an opinion not a fact either way...we KNOW its tackle twill but not what side is actually out...so making it a requirement is purely wrong for people who already have vests one way or the other. And you would be stuck with or take a hit selling it off.
 
So over on the BHG, they look like they are leaning towards just keeping the vest requirement to be the tackle twill fabric and not specific to which side is out for any tier level. Nothing is set in stone yet, but Bob (webchief) is pushing this as its so hard to tell for certain going by 30+ yr old pictures. I know some of you pop on there so you may wanna check it out periodically until they finalize it...but so far it looks like either would be acceptable for any tier level of the 501st.
 
I think it's very silly to make any sort of "requirements" based on a perception of accuracy which is not in itself accurate.
Tackle twill, while commonly accepted as the most correct looking material for the vest, neck, and glove backs, is certainly not what was originally used. The pattern and sheen are decent matches but the history of the fabric precludes it from being an exact match to the original material.

The vest and neckseal are both shiny. There are different levels of shine from suit to suit that differ by weathering, dying, and washing I believe. Also it is possible they used different material when making the ROTJ vest.

For ESB, the vest is the same as the PP2 but maybe with more weathering. And the neck and vest have about the same levels of sheen.
See?
Boba Fett Empire Strikes Back Costume - The Dented Helmet Gallery

I have been looking into different fabrics with the Clothears costumes people. A very accurate vest is forthcoming but may not be made with tackle twill, or with whatever side out people think is correct. But it will be accurate to what is seen on the original suits.
It is accurate for the vest, neck, and gloves to be made of material with a shine, and correct grain pattern. No stipulations should be made about tackle twill specifically. And the level of shine of the tackle twill, if used, needs to be reduced with weathering.
 
I understand all of your points, and im sure you are correct on most, if not all of them, but the fact of the matter is that the 501st has requirements to join, so they have to give you something to go by. The 501st, as accurate as most members can be, is not perfect and the requirements can only be based on what the community (being here or other places) has concluded. Its been pretty standard that the tackle twill is the closest thing that can be easily bought so thats why it was set as a requirement/standard.

This was for a tier 2 level (more accurate than the basic). Due to the blue ray showing the vest so clearly, they were determining if there should be a more specific look for the higher levels, thats all it is.
 
So how do we change the 501st "accuracy"?
Is it the community's opinion about whether something is correct?
Or is it whether something correct is correct?

I agree there needs to be standards, but are you telling me that if I show up with my new vest and suit and the material doesn't have the reverse side out or whatever (not correct btw) or is made out of a material more correct than tackle twill, I will be considered less accurate than somebody's parts that are actually less accurate? That's messed up.
 
So how do we change the 501st "accuracy"?
Is it the community's opinion about whether something is correct?
Or is it whether something correct is correct?

501st standards are constantly evolving. If a member of the community/detachment discovers a more accurate material, and has sufficient evidence to support it, the CRLs are updated. So yes, it goes by members of the community, BUT they need to show any evidence/proof they may have to support their claim, so if there is any evidence something is correct, then of course THAT would be what is desired. So the ultimate goal is "if something is correct, its correct". The legion of course trys to get the most accurate information, but hey, we are all human and can only do so much. Obviously some things can never be found out/proven for sure, so we have to go on the closest possible thing, thats just the nature of trying to replicate something from so long ago, as im sure you know.

I agree there needs to be standards, but are you telling me that if I show up with my new vest and suit and the material doesn't have the reverse side out or whatever (not correct btw) or is made out of a material more correct than tackle twill, I will be considered less accurate than somebody's parts that are actually less accurate? That's messed up.


No, the legion basic standards wouldn't take the material to that depth. Again, if you have proof something is or isnt correct, it can affect the legion CRL's like i said above..they are constantly evolving.

This disscussion was for level2..which DOES take the material into that depth. The point of this discussion is to determine if there is a better option than what we have been using. Keeping in mind, it has to be obtainable...if its a super rare material, it just discourages people...so there has to be a happy medium. Its not an easy task. Now for level3, it would likely have to be the absolute correct to the best of our knowledge.



So if YOU can find an obtainable fabric that better matches the actual fabric, or you know what the actual fabric is, all you need is some evidence/proof of it, and it can 100% change the standards. So, No, you wouldn't be considered less accurate than somebody's parts that are actually less accurate
 
At this point, the tackle twill is still the best looking. But not what was originally used. People have known this for a long time. Other options may come in the future.

Consider this:
Someone had an tackle twill vest but used an inaccurate pattern. The vest would not look right when compared to an original.

Or

Someone had a vest made of a less accurate material but the pattern was far more accurate. The vest would look right but still wouldn't technically be right.

So what does the 501st say about vest patterns? I would think that would be much more important than the material it was made of or which side was facing out.

I appreciate the job the 501st has to do to set standards. But Batninja started this thread because the question was what side of the material was supposed to be outwards to be accurate and his concern about those 501st standards affecting his customers.
The fabric is too reflective by nature of what its real world purpose is. If you turn it inside out it might be too dull. Has anyone tried making a vest with the material inside out? Actually Clothers is experimenting with just that among other things.
Setting a standard as to what side faces out seems odd. Having the vest and neckseal looking the same seems a sound choice. And if you look at the reference, they are both shiny.
But have both shiny in, shiny out, one in/one out shouldnt make a difference. And certainly seems very picky when the vest or neckseal made from the stuff likely has an inaccurate pattern/details to begin with which are Far more obviously incorrect.

I would set your "Level 2" standards to simply say the vests and neckseals must be made of accurate looking material (tackle twill or similar) and have reasonably accurate patterns.
It would be very difficult to set standards beyond that I would think.

Just my .02
 
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