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  1. intwenothor's Avatar
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    Mar 1, 2014, 7:08 PM - Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #1

    Good evening Fett heads, here's some information of a broader nature about those hard to find flare guns. It won't really expand knowledge of the props but I never get bored of this stuff! The information was obtained from a lecture given by Molly Milner to the Historical Breechloading smallarms association (seriously) at the Imperial War Museum London. Unfortunately IWM is closed until July but well worth a visit if you have never been. Usual apologies for my camera work.

    Enjoy...

    Andy


    In April 1915 Webley started production of their MKVI service revolver and in that same month there was a new design of flare pistol. The barrel diameter was 1 and was made from steel rather than brass. This larger bore pistol was designed for use in the trenches and by the Royal Flying Corps (not the Royal Air Force as sometimes incorrectly stated; the RAF did not exist until 1st April 1918 towrd the end of the war [Nov '18]). As there was a huge demand for arms at that time it made a lot of sense for the flare pistols and the service revolver to be a similar design. Indeed, 50% of the component parts of these arms were interchangeable. Unfortunately I don't have a MkVI revolver to show you.

    The No. 1 Mark 1 Flare pistol had a 10 barrel and facility for a shoulder stock. Flare Pistols were used by the military to pass messages to the artillery and to signal orders to Pilots flying above.

    Webley 10 Flare pistol






    The No 2 Mark 2 flare pistol had a 4 barrel and no shoulder stock and was used by RFC pilots. When the aircraft were first used in WW1 pilots used the signal pistol to send messages to the artillery.

    Webley 4" Flare pistol






    Webley 10" and 4" Together.






    During the war (Uncle Albert anyone?) Webley produced 48300 1 signal pistols; 26665 No.1s and 21635 No.2s. I have no idea how many went to Federal Laboratories and obviously there is no way for me to ascertain how many were lost or destroyed either in the war itself or the subsequent years and therefore cannot speculate how many exist in the world today but both models are considered very rare (like you didn't know).

    The No 1 & No 2 flare pistols had a common serial number range starting from 1 which was completely separate from the Mk ll and Mk lll flare pistol number range (the brass ones) and also completely different from the MKVl revolver range.

    The first order for 50 No.1s was 30th March 1915 and these pistols sold for 65/-. By May the price had dropped to 62/6 and in October to 62/-.
    The reason for the price drop was probably because the Government had introduced an excess profits tax on profits that were made from Military contracts.



    Live the dream
  2. KenChan's Avatar
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    Mar 1, 2014, 7:57 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #2

    Great post.
    And it Highlights just how few of these are still out there.
    This is why it's such a shame, from a firearms collector standpoint, when people go and deactivate them, more or less destroying 100 yrs of history; all for the sake of having what is essentially a toy. If you HAVE to deactivate one due to your country's laws (and not just because you don't want to go through the trouble of getting the proper permits), than you should hold out for one of the chrome FBI models as the historic value has already been more or less destroyed.

    Sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but it feels like a kick in the gut every time I see one of these WWI relics destroyed all for the sake of a prop...

    BTW Andy, are those lovely pieces yours? Both look fantastic. What year is she? I got a 1917 myself. Your No1 looks like it must have taken a hell of a drop somewhere in it's life, as the trigger guard looks just slightly flattened. Not easy to bend that old steel.
    Last edited by KenChan; Mar 2, 2014 at 12:31 AM.
  3. Mar 2, 2014, 1:03 AM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #3

    thanks for sharing Andy
  4. intwenothor's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 1:41 AM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #4

    Thanks guys...

    Dana, these are both mine and they are both deactivated; they were already when I bought them. Owning any kind of firearm in the UK is a real difficulty and obtaining a license for this kind of firearm is a virtual impossibility and isn't really just a case of going through the trouble of getting the proper permits. This also applies to replicas such a MGC or Denix Mauser. It is something I have looked into for other live firearms and basically the answer from the authorities is no. To be blunt I simply wouldn't be able to have them if they weren't deactivated but I do appreciate the point that the process does ruin them from a certain point of view. Even owning them as deactivated requires proper certification but I don't feel guilty as they were both deactivated long, long ago by their original respective militaria owners/collectors. It is still a big shame though.

    You are correct that the trigger guard of the ten inch has taken a serious knock at some point. It arrived that way but is otherwise in pretty good shape considering the age. The ten inch is from 1916 and the four inch from 1918. One thing that might interest those that have only held the (excellent) resin copies out there is just how heavy these are; the four inch is only slightly less heavy than the ten which I think explains the way JB is always seen holding the EE3 with both hands more often than not. It would not have taken long for the weight to tell whilst shooting and especially wearing all the rest of the suit.

    All the best

    Andy
  5. thebeans's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 5:52 AM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #5

    "During the war" hahahahaha Great info , Thanks!!
  6. Scott D's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 10:05 AM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #6

    Thanks for sharing.

    My Federal labs no. 1 mk. 1 is serial number 26559. One of the very last ones made.

    As far as I know, I'm still the only RPF/TDH member that has a no. 1 mk. 1 with the original sling.

    I bought mine out of a pawn shop 14 years ago. They can turn up just about anywhere.
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    Mar 2, 2014, 11:54 AM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #7

    Man you seem to find all the nice stuff!!!
  8. KenChan's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 1:14 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #8

    Quote intwenothor said: View Post
    Owning any kind of firearm in the UK is a real difficulty and obtaining a license for this kind of firearm is a virtual impossibility and isn't really just a case of going through the trouble of getting the proper permits. This also applies to replicas such a MGC or Denix Mauser. It is something I have looked into for other live firearms and basically the answer from the authorities is no. To be blunt I simply wouldn't be able to have them if they weren't deactivated but I do appreciate the point that the process does ruin them from a certain point of view. Even owning them as deactivated requires proper certification but I don't feel guilty as they were both deactivated long, long ago by their original respective militaria owners/collectors. It is still a big shame though.
    Yeah, its a real shame that some of the laws over there have gotten to the point they have. War Relics such as these that have a true historic value to them should have been given a pass from those laws. Again sorry if my little rant came across as harsh to anyone; It wasn't meant as a jab at anyone in particular. I just wanted people to realize that when they DO go ahead and deactivate war relics such as these things, they are forever altering/destroying it; and that takes a substantial chunk out of what it's worth both in historical value as well as monetary value.
  9. intwenothor's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 4:41 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #9

    Quote Scott D said: View Post
    Thanks for sharing.

    My Federal labs no. 1 mk. 1 is serial number 26559. One of the very last ones made.

    As far as I know, I'm still the only RPF/TDH member that has a no. 1 mk. 1 with the original sling.

    I bought mine out of a pawn shop 14 years ago. They can turn up just about anywhere.
    Scott, you're lucky to have the original sling but I'm not sure I have explained myself very well when I said that the ten and four inch share a common serial number range. I meant all the 1 1/2 inch guns are within that range so the last No 1 Mk 1 could conceivably be number 48300 and the last No 2 Mk1 could be 48299 as they are all in the same range. It isn't the case that they made all the ten inches in one hit and then made all the four inches in one hit; they're all part of the same range of numbers. At least that was my understanding.

    Quote Marv said: View Post
    Man you seem to find all the nice stuff!!!
    Brother, you know that some of it's luck and some of it is searching those obscure places and you know I was months late on that crossbow!

    I'm still missing a few bits I'd love to have. I'd really love to have a set of toe spikes made entirely from sweep arm parts (yeah right!).

    Quote KenChan said: View Post
    Yeah, its a real shame that some of the laws over there have gotten to the point they have. War Relics such as these that have a true historic value to them should have been given a pass from those laws. Again sorry if my little rant came across as harsh to anyone; It wasn't meant as a jab at anyone in particular. I just wanted people to realize that when they DO go ahead and deactivate war relics such as these things, they are forever altering/destroying it; and that takes a substantial chunk out of what it's worth both in historical value as well as monetary value.
    Our laws are what they are and I can't see them changing anytime soon and I agree with pretty much all you said; the real shame is the things that happened in order for them to get to where they are - Bizarrely in just a few more years these items would most likely be exempt as British laws do allow the keeping of firearms that fall under the category of 'Antique or Curio'. Unfortunately there is no strict definition as to exactly what this means so each case must be judged on it's individual merits (the Home office Guidelines are the sort of vagueness that martinets live for). Lastly, I certainly didn't interpret your post as a rant but I can see that you are passionate about the matter and have a lot of time for the sentiment. I too would prefer that these were not deacs. Your point was well made.

    Live the dream peeps

    Andy
  10. FettFanatic's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 7:41 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #10

    Scott D can you post some pics of the sling?
  11. Scott D's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 8:30 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #11

    Quote FettFanatic said: View Post
    Scott D can you post some pics of the sling?
    The only two I have uploaded right now.




  12. intwenothor's Avatar
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    Mar 2, 2014, 9:57 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #12

    How do you know it is the original sling?
  13. DanzoFett's Avatar
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    Mar 3, 2014, 2:16 AM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #13

    Good point Andy,I've seen a few of these with a rope sling sold by antique dealers,who claim it's the original and I think it could be spot on...... :-)
  14. Scott D's Avatar
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    Mar 3, 2014, 2:14 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #14

    Quote intwenothor said: View Post
    How do you know it is the original sling?
    There's some markings on the sling that makes me think it's British and not Federal Lab's handiwork.

    When another Webley w/original sling comes along, I'd like to see pics.
  15. intwenothor's Avatar
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    Mar 3, 2014, 2:32 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #15

    I see, so aside from the fact that it is obviously old there is no way to know?

    The original sling would definitely have been removed for the plating process I think but is there any concrete evidence that the prop sling is original? I'd guess not.
  16. KenChan's Avatar
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    Mar 3, 2014, 3:16 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #16

    Quote intwenothor said: View Post
    I see, so aside from the fact that it is obviously old there is no way to know?

    The original sling would definitely have been removed for the plating process I think but is there any concrete evidence that the prop sling is original? I'd guess not.
    I highly doubt the esb sling is original, as it is more or less "tied" on in a knot on both rings. They likely added the sling to give the weapon more character.
  17. Major's Avatar
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    Mar 3, 2014, 5:02 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #17

    That's some great info........

    I was having a conversation with my boss, who knows his guns...... When I brought up the plating, he stated that would have been so the guns could better withstand being out at sea.......

    Thought it was interesting.....
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    May 22, 2014, 5:44 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #18

    I checked where might be the best place to post, and this seems to be a good string.
    I picked up a resin cast ROTJ rifle from molonlabestudios on ebay. Some stuff on ebay is crap, but this is not. I'm very pleased with the cast and the detail and it's solid weight. Recently, I had a chance to line it up with an original. I'm posting here because its worth showing the detail cast vs. one of the real deal Webley's. I figure if any group would appreciate the comparison, its this forum. Hopefully, I can get the photos to load up.
    No, this Webley is not the flare gun version, but the stock, handle, grip, and most everthing else behind the hammer are the same.
    This is a WW1 Webley Mark VI Revolver with Shoulder-Stock and Pritchard-Greener Bayonet. Made and dated 1915. The practicality of a bayonet on this gun is questionable, but it is the bayonet designed to fit this weapon.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by jsm1989; May 22, 2014 at 6:08 PM. Reason: Added date
  19. AverageNobody's Avatar
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    May 22, 2014, 7:22 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #19

    I picked up one of those from molonlabestudios as well. At first I was hesitant getting something like that off of eBay, but the more I looked at the details & pics, the more it looked legit. So I took a chance, and I'm glad I did. The quality of the piece, as well as the paint & weathering, is definitely worth the price.
  20. intwenothor's Avatar
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    May 22, 2014, 8:27 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #20

    I don't think I'll be buying one (not that I'd need to ). I don't understand why he chose to obliterate the fine details fom his EE3 such as the company name and model and serial number especially when he hasn't on the snub custom thingy based on the mk 3. I appreciate that the serial numbers will never match but the ROTJ prop clearly shows these markings and seems strange to miss them out and a waste of effort alter the mold to hide them. Also why not just do a straight up ESB instead of the custom thing; I'm sure there is a bigger market. If I were in the market for a resin blaster I'd definitely wait the extra time and save a bit more for the sidewinder kits presently available (or stormrider if he's doing them again). In my opinion those SW kits are he best out there.

    I like the revolver. I toyed with buying one of these a while back as it looked like an interesting piece but didn't really have the spare cash. Yours looks in great nick though. I agree about the bayonet as being a bit of a stretch and question the stock/carbine attachment too but it certainly looks good.
  21. KenChan's Avatar
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    May 22, 2014, 9:08 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #21

    Quote intwenothor said: View Post
    I don't think I'll be buying one (not that I'd need to ). I don't understand why he chose to obliterate the fine details fom his EE3 such as the company name and model and serial number especially when he hasn't on the snub custom thingy based on the mk 3. I appreciate that the serial numbers will never match but the ROTJ prop clearly shows these markings and seems strange to miss them out and a waste of effort alter the mold to hide them. Also why not just do a straight up ESB instead of the custom thing; I'm sure there is a bigger market. If I were in the market for a resin blaster I'd definitely wait the extra time and save a bit more for the sidewinder kits presently available (or stormrider if he's doing them again). In my opinion those SW kits are he best out there.

    I like the revolver. I toyed with buying one of these a while back as it looked like an interesting piece but didn't really have the spare cash. Yours looks in great nick though. I agree about the bayonet as being a bit of a stretch and question the stock/carbine attachment too but it certainly looks good.
    I'm thinking he might have used one of the scrubbed FBI versions for the base, and that may account for the missing marks.
  22. AverageNobody's Avatar
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    May 22, 2014, 9:20 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #22

    I see it as a good starting point. After what I've spent on the other components, this is a good placeholder until I have the resources for a more accurate, high-end rifle.
  23. intwenothor's Avatar
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    May 22, 2014, 9:20 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #23

    It's possible. He certainly doesn't big up these genuine details of his EE3 like he does his molds of his mk 3 which show resin version and original side by side. The price looks appealing but I'm unconvinced. I appreciate I don't own one of these but the pics are pretty detailed. I don't own a SW either but to me that would be the better option.
  24. jbdubz's Avatar
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    May 29, 2014, 5:44 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #24

    always love to read your write ups Andy.
  25. intwenothor's Avatar
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    Jun 1, 2014, 5:12 PM - Re: Miscellaneous Webley and Scott Flare Gun information. #25

    Quote jbdubz said: View Post
    always love to read your write ups Andy.
    Thanks man, information like this is gold dust to me although of no immediate application to our purposes; I am afraid that I am a really quite a dull person as I am quite happy to spend weeks researching this stuff. The trouble is that I get so easily distracted. A while back research into MPP flash units caused me to take up large format photography (rewarding but time consuming) and more recent research into Sweep arms and Stylus brushes has caused me to find myself restoring this:





    It was in a hell of a state having been neglected and abused for over two decades; to get this far took three weeks of cleanup every evening for about two or three hours a night - dirt, grime, covered in the hydraulic fluid which had solidified and also something corrosive that burnt my skin. Loads of work still to be done. I'll post in the Sarlacc pit when she's done! This is all time that I am not working on my Boba!!!!!!!! Will he ever be finished?

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