History of the boot

Lately I've spent a lot of time researching the infamous Fett boot. I'm currently pursuing several leads that seem to have great potential given style and construction cues noted in reference photographs.The abrupt end of one of these leads last week has me a bit frustrated, but also glad I can check one more potential source off my list, this lead entailed going through every catalog, production note, and order for this company during the 1970's. Needless to say, they were very generous with their efforts to help me.Last weeks dead end is catalyst for this post. I'd like anyone here with any information regarding the boot to post it here, so that we might:a. All learn from it, andb. Not spin our wheels repeating each others research.Thanks in advance. Looking forward to what you all have to say!-Jared

Okay then, simmer down everyone.

Let me put forth some suggestions as to why I think the boot is def a found part. I know a few of you have talked to the original prop builders (or at least, have for the helmet), so I would love to hear your thoughts.

First off, let's talk about what I'm going to call the 'ear flaps'. The parts on either side of the boot that probably stretch a bit. Two things pop-out at me about this section, first... the fabric weave changes directions and goes horizontal at the top. This is done on some of the chelsea boots to make them more durable, and so you don't get that stretched-out 'baconing' effect at the top. Also, this section is double stitched around the edges for durability.

These two points stand out at me as 'production shoe' and not 'quick prop'. These details, as well as the back-heel flap (to make it easier to pull on) have no need to be there in a non-production prop.

The last detail that I would suggest is indicative of a production item and not a prop, is the toe. This boot as a very clean, square toe. Now, I'm no shoe/boot expert, but EVERYONE I've spoken too says Chelsea boots and notoriously difficult to make... and make well. Why would the prop builders choose a difficult boot style to produce when (a) no one will ever notice, and (b) there are MANY chelsea's easily available?

Below are images of (obviously) the fett boot, highlighting the points I'm talking about, and vintage (70's I believe) chelsea showing the same details. What do you guys think??

I tried looking at dive boots to see if I could find something resembling the Fett boot since that's what it looks like to me. The actual boot material doesn't look like leather which is why I thought it wasn't a Chelsea, but I haven't found anything with the right sole either.

WTFett, I chased down the Royal Navy Divers boot lead, by contacting a specialist/professor at The Defence Academy of the UK. He, in turn, was kind enough to contact a 'MCD Officer' who assured him it was NOT a RN Divers boot.

If that helps.

The sole, I wouldn't focus on that too much. Resoling isn't as difficult, and since a lot of Chelsea's had boot heals, they may have resoled, just to make it easier for the actor.

As for the material... IDK, waxed cotten? Perhaps something similar to denim?

I have researched the boot intensely as well......The "earflaps" are called a shoe gore or goring. Very common. Although the particular type of elastic is not.
The costumer used was well known for above average craftsmanship......so I wouldn't discount the fact that the boot could have been made exclusively for the production.

Dahone,

Yeah, I was wondering about that too! I have an email inquiry into Angel's to see what records they might have. Also, I don't know if, back in the day when B&N was separate, if even THEY made all their own stuff. A lot of prop/costumiers make some, and buy a LOT.

With the reinforced parts, the attention to detail, and the volume of available nondescript Chels boots... I just really wonder.

There is almost no question in my mind its a canvas boot. Additionally, the clean half-hexagon toe (not squared as is oft repeated) is highly indicative to me of a shoe that was built by the costumer in-house.

Lufo,

They very well may have been built in-house... I'm just presenting a theory here.

Here's a question for all of you lineage guys... There were a lot of different costumes... the Supertrooper...ESB, ROTJ... and then the traveling shows various combinations. Were all of those the same boot? Not the same style, mind you, but the same exact pair?

Note: PrePro and ROTJ costumes that have been on display have a different Gore (elastic).

Dahone,

But are they all structurally the same? Same seam lines, etc?

Lufo, yeah... the actual shape of the toe is an issue to the 'found item' argument.

Originally Posted by Lufo1138

There is almost no question in my mind its a canvas boot. Additionally, the clean half-hexagon toe (not squared as is oft repeated) is highly indicative to me of a shoe that was built by the costumer in-house.

I to have looked and came to the conclusion that they were custom made

there is a pic of Fett with vader on a Promo tour, and Fetts boots seem to have liffter soles ,
so this also makes me think they are custom made

BGH, I saw that pic... I thought those were the regular shoes resoled?

I think that about proves there hand made for the costume

Rafal & BGH,

Okay, this is the key point where I play devils advocate (just for the sake of discussion, I'm not trying to be argumentative or 'flame', is that the right word, here)...

B&N, like any film/stage costumers... Didn't MAKE all of their items. They certainly made a lot of their things, but a lot was off the shelf too.

Listen, I agree that given the odd shape of the toe, and the multiple known soles, of the boot...B&N very well may have produced the boots to order for the Supertrooper costume. However, given the availability of that style at the time, the complexity of constucting/building that style (in a clean fashion), and the production quality included in what B&N would have considered a 'stage boot'... Doesn't it warrant further research until more definitive proof surfaces?

I guess I'm feeling a bit like a contrarian, and that's really not my intended tone. However, when the B&N list was made public (thanks Art!) that just reaffirmed my thoughts that it was an off the shelf boot modified.

The biggest points in my mind that theyay have been custom made (yes, I'm arguing both sides... Hey, either way I'm be 'right' haha) were the odd shaped toe (which actually CAN be found in some early 70's UK chels boots) and the lack of a vertical seam directly below the goring (which I also have found, but only on leather production boots).

I never said that Berman and Nathan LTD did the boots from scratch, I just pointed out the right direction for you. This is where you must start the research. It might be possible that they used an existing product and alter it to fit their needs. But they might did the boots from scratch...

The Berman and Nathan LTD was taken over by Angels, another UK costume makers for the movie business.

Rafal,

Yessir! I've already contacted Angel's. I'll share the results when I get them.

I should also point out that a lot of costumers suppliment their scratch built stuff with off the shelf items, old stock buy outs, estate sales, etc.

So, even if the boots are a 'found item' the b&n/angels lead still might not go anywhere. I guess what I'm suggest is, if anyone else is researching this, don't discount still researching original manufacturers.

I'm really loving this debate here... now I'm no expert in the Fett boots, but, i do know a bit about the TK Chelsea boots I ordered for my TK a few years ago.. now, I read someplace that when asked, Jeremy Bulloch had said the boots he wore were "uncomfortable".. and i can definitely say, my Chelsea boots were very uncomfortable until i put some gel soles in them... they were the real deal from England even...

OK so my theory, hear me out... What if they were reverse engineered.. basically they made a pattern from some Chelsea or Jodhpur boots and used different materiel to put them back together with a different sole... most of the masked costumed boots from the movies have the same look to them and maybe that's the best they could do for a "new character" without changing the style...

The high-res images of the Fett boots look to be made out of some type of canvas materiel.....

Wonder if a company out there ever made Jodhpur or Chelsea boots in a canvas material? i dont think so.. just because, they are basically riding and stable boots.. you would think that you would want leather.... style boots on the other hand... maybe...

TORONTO Canvas Chelsea Boot - TopShop - Polyvore

food for thought and my my two cents...

-Jimmy

My uncle was a hardhat diver in the 70s and he had a few pairs of Boba Fett boots, in grey and blue. they had the same toe, same sole, and same ribbing on them. They were made of basically oiled canvas with a rubber backing and had mostly rotted away by the time me and my cousins helped him clean out his old dive locker in about 85 or so.

No question that these are dive boots of some sort.

double post

Nice idea but not likely , these were all white canvas to start

agreed. the supertrooper pics available make it clear these started out as pristine white canvas boots. in fact, you can still see some of the white showing on the ribbing in the recent exhibits where they were scuffed -- revealing the original material under the paint.

Okay. I've learned not to argue on the internet.
Good luck finding the boot, it'd be really cool to see that.

Originally Posted by Lufo1138

agreed. the supertrooper pics available make it clear these started out as pristine white canvas boots. in fact, you can still see some of the white showing on the ribbing in the recent exhibits where they were scuffed -- revealing the original material under the paint.

Which would lead me to believe that either:

a) if they were a found item -- say, a dive boot -- they were painted/dyed white on the Supertrooper and not originally white. They did it with the Stormtrooper jodhpurs. No reason to think they couldn't do it for the Supertrooper. Dive boots would not be made in white.

b) they were custom made with the white canvas.

I wouldn't assume they were originally white even if you can see white showing under the ribbing when they were scuffed. That could just as easily be white paint/dye over the original.

Originally Posted by Madmartigan

Which would lead me to believe that either:

a) if they were a found item -- say, a dive boot -- they were painted/dyed white on the Supertrooper and not originally white. They did it with the Stormtrooper jodhpurs. No reason to think they couldn't do it for the Supertrooper. Dive boots would not be made in white.

b) they were custom made with the white canvas.

I wouldn't assume they were originally white even if you can see white showing under the ribbing when they were scuffed. That could just as easily be white paint/dye over the original.

Fair enough assumptions. However, have you seen the hi-rez supertrooper photos that were released last year? To me, looking at the boots in those pics, they just do not look painted like what they did with the Stormtrooper boots. I acknowledge, though, that its entirely possible they did. Just doesn't seem likely to me they were painted on top of an existing darker colored boot on close examination of the photos. Add to that, I have never seen a dive boot, or any off the shelf boot, that comes close to looking like the Fett boot, even assuming the cut on the toe was done by the costumers. It would be nice to see a photo of a dive boot, or any boot that is in the ballpark. I have yet to come across one.

Chris (FettPride) took a pair of fett boots he didnt think were acurate, and cut the toe (took a size 11 and made it a size 8.5). He cut the toe and re-seamed it. It made the toe very square.

This is just an idea so hear me out.

You get a set of boots that are close. But they are too big. You cut the toe, and re-seam it. But its kinda square and clunky. You decide to add the toe spikes (the only costume that I know of with such a detail) to hide the conversion of the toe.

I know that when I looked at chris's boots, I could not tell he shortened them.

Not really so much a theory, as it is food for thought.

BGH, I will respectfully disagree. B&N were the suppliers of the boots, but they most certainly didn't make them. The question remains though, did they have them made, or grab off the shelf parts?

Again, I'm not saying that the boot is a found item... I'm just saying that it's still up in the air.

Did the production drawings show that particular design? If so then they must have been made to copy it. If the boots weren't in the drawings then it could have been a found item.

I have never seen angled elastic sides like that on any shoe anywhere else.

RafAl,

First, thanks for posting that. Second, does an image like that exist for/pre Supertrooper costume?

Originally Posted by SegwayOfOhio

Rafal,

First, thanks for posting that. Second, does an image like that exist for/pre Supertrooper costume?

Here's a beautiful image from Ralph McQuarrie:



There are more in the Gallery here.

The knees are "up side down"in that sketch, interesting.

Thanks Rafal... Hmmm, Chelsea boot wasn't in the original mock-up?

***, no... The knee armor was upside down in the movie?!?! :P

Originally Posted by WTFett

The knees are "up side down"in that sketch, interesting.

No! The knees aren't upside down, it's just a variation. If you look better, there are darts on both sides of the knees...

Originally Posted by SegwayOfOhio

Thanks Rafal... Hmmm, Chelsea boot wasn't in the original mock-up?

***, no... The knee armor was upside down in the movie?!?! :P

Remember that the early pre-production images were for the Supertrooper concept, later they decided for a single character named Boba Fett and the suit was personalized and tweaked. Maybe there was something from the Chelsea boots... Maybe not.

And yes, there are some stills in the Gallery under the ESB Fett suit where Boba Fett wears the knees upside down.



And two right knees.

Personally, it think it was a combination of made item and found item. The white super trooper boots make it look like the top flap is an added piece that covers laces or something else that was already preexisting on the boot. And it's true at this point with all the fett replicas Lucasfilm has made for events throughout the years, they could have commissioned a company to make a run of boots for them as running around years later trying to locate found items is a pain all the time.

Originally Posted by RafalFett

No! The knees aren't upside down, it's just a variation. If you look better, there are darts on both sides of the knees...



Remember that the early pre-production images were for the Supertrooper concept, later they decided for a single character named Boba Fett and the suit was personalized and tweaked. Maybe there was something from the Chelsea boots... Maybe not.

And yes, there are some stills in the Gallery under the ESB Fett suit where Boba Fett wears the knees upside down.



And two right knees.

I totally have TWO right knees for this haha...Im gonna rock two rights one day

Originally Posted by Fett 4 Real

I totally have TWO right knees for this haha...Im gonna rock two rights one day

And there are so many mixed up variations... You've got already one. Which one is next?

Maybe this one:

http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f20/boot-find-13688/

Wes

Originally Posted by Jango_Wes

http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f20/boot-find-13688/

Wes

There's no real proof, maybe in lack of any image...

Originally Posted by SegwayOfOhio

BGH, I will respectfully disagree. B&N were the suppliers of the boots, but they most certainly didn't make them. The question remains though, did they have them made, or grab off the shelf parts?

Again, I'm not saying that the boot is a found item... I'm just saying that it's still up in the air.

Under what pretenses do you make this asumption?
Im always willing to exept Im wrong but untill I see reason to think other wise there is nothing to say they were not made by them (Yes possible they contracted a shoe maker but that doesnt go against the idea, and if it is so they were comisioned to make them and they did so , as many other parts on other costumes were made,
darn the whole Fett costume was made for the movie , why is it such a stretch they would make the boots?

Look at the boot spat on the end of the right guantlet!

Originally Posted by RafalFett

And there are so many mixed up variations... You've got already one. Which one is next?

Maybe this one:

BGH,

Let me start by saying it has not been my intention to be argumentative. I've got nothing but the utmost respect for ya! I'm just trying to continue a discussion that has not, as of yet, been definitively answered. I have not meant to frustrate you (it seemed earlier that I had).

Okay, so RS had chased down and contacted some Berman and Nathan (BN) lead, who stated that they didn't produce footwear in house. I believe he was told they used some footwear out of stock as well as having some made by the company who made the Stormtrooper boots (and the Beatles boots). People at that company claimed to have made the boots, but didn't have any proof or documentation, and I believe the men who were running it at the time are now deceased.

Again, let me make clear for anyone following my lead here that I know exactly nuttin about nuttin. I'm just working under the assumption that it was overkill to have custom boots made (and nice ones at that) for a secondary character... especially when that style was so available at the time.

Originally Posted by BGHunter

Under what pretenses do you make this asumption?
Im always willing to exept Im wrong but untill I see reason to think other wise there is nothing to say they were not made by them (Yes possible they contracted a shoe maker but that doesnt go against the idea, and if it is so they were comisioned to make them and they did so , as many other parts on other costumes were made,
darn the whole Fett costume was made for the movie , why is it such a stretch they would make the boots?

Jango Wes' post above of an older thread seems to be the best lead I've seen yet.

Dahone, that leaves a LOT of boots and a LOT of manufacturers to check out!

I would say they were some similar boots (from the old ListBot). If they were the right ones, SOMEONE would have saved the image (not downing Jango Wes, just saying that was a while ago!)

Yeah.....Hopefully some one will come forward with an image from the post.

what if they were the inner boot for some weighted deep sea divers boot of some sort? There is ALOT of dive gear used on Fett...

That would explain the material (chelsea/paddock are usually leather). That's a hard topic to look for.

If wes' ausie memory is correct, there were a few brands that made chelsea style safety boots at the time... so we should have some luck.

Originally Posted by Fett 4 Real

what if they were the inner boot for some weighted deep sea divers boot of some sort? There is ALOT of dive gear used on Fett...

I would LOVE to see the pic from the old listbot though...anyone *tap*tap...Art...ANYONE??

All I can contribute to the "history of the boot" is that at least one (probably the pair) of the ESB boots is on the AOSW/C4 display.


I think there are alot of boots the design could have been based on. Wrestling boots, diving boots, chelseas... But I think at the end of the day you will not find something exact. I think they were certainly custom made. With respect to the boot makers on this board, we have yet to have a reproduction come very close to the real pattern.

The image of the Australian boot was lost in the board transition and to history. Several of the old timers who were around can vouch that it did exist. I've spoken at length to Bat Ninja on the subject and his memory of the picture and the discovery is very vivid. I don't know what else to tell you. He used to have the picture of the exact boot, but unfortunately, it has been lost over the years.

Wes