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FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

  1. #26
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Actually... now that I am looking at the back of the rocket, in the heavily scratched up areas... I am seriously beginning to question if ANY of it is metal.... Keep in mind this is just ONE rocket... it doesn't by any means prove they are all like this...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rocket_back-jpg  

  2. #27

    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    ART ANDREWS said: View Post
    So... is anyone else seeing the RED PLASTIC that is seen on the Fett stunt cod, the Fett stunt helmets and Leia's bikini?!? I would argue that at least THIS rocket tip is not metal at all (I do think the back part and the aluminum tip are metal). Maybe only one or a few masters were made and they were too heavy so they went to a plastic casting. Either way, I am pretty convinced this one is the same red plastic we see elsewhere.
    What, the copper part? Nah, we stared at this picture a few weeks ago. The base copper still looks like plating to me. If it was plastic I'd expect the base copper color to have as much peeling as the clear coat, or at least some obvious gouges and scratches down to the base material (more red color).

    EDIT: I'm still not convinced. That aluminum reflective property with scratches is too authentic looking to me. I still say that's machined.
    Last edited by Rich D.; Feb 6, 2009 at 9:25 AM. Reason: simulpost

  3. #28
    never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    I think I'm seeing the red you are talking about, but I don't think it's the same thing as the stunt cod, bucket, and gold bikini. It doesn't look consistant, more like it's a trick of the camera...not sure what kind of camera took the photo but sometimes if the sensor or processor in the camera doesn't "know what to do with" the information it sees it kinda "makes something up" I think that's what we are seeing. I could be way off there but for now that's my theory.

  4. #29
    CGClone's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    I do thoroughly believe that there were many rockets used, no doubt there. I am sure combination of metal and plastic was used simply due to the nature of the production and the variations that Fett took.

    Interesting theory there Art, I do see what you are referring to in the plastic.

  5. #30
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    CGClone said: View Post
    Art, please, this is in no way a personal attack, I am not naming you. I am questioning the community at large why we do this type of behavior?
    I totally understand where you are coming from. I don't want to go into great detail about it, but the stuff is being sold and is why I am not saying more. And no, it isn't being sold by me. While some of your comments are dead on, it isn't the case in this instance. It is more of a business thing for the person who owns it. I am only sharing what I know (which I literally found out about this last week, so it isn't something I have been sitting on) in an effort to help this search. While we see a lot of "I know but can't tell you" in the prop community, I think you will have to admit, that there is very little of it here at TDH.

  6. #31
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    never_ending_fett said: View Post
    I think I'm seeing the red you are talking about, but I don't think it's the same thing as the stunt cod, bucket, and gold bikini. It doesn't look consistant, more like it's a trick of the camera...not sure what kind of camera took the photo but sometimes if the sensor or processor in the camera doesn't "know what to do with" the information it sees it kinda "makes something up" I think that's what we are seeing. I could be way off there but for now that's my theory.
    CCD's dont just arbitrarily make stuff up. They are incredibly similar to film in that when exposed to light, its processes the information. Lighting is really what photography is all about - Art would know this as well. I am not defending the red or denying it, but I am doubting its a random act of the camera itself.

  7. #32
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Simon Fett said: View Post
    If the original machinist plans and drawings were found, why would we even doubt which material was used? Even you seemed to doubt that it was custom machined in copper when fettpride and spideyfett got their new missile out.
    This info JUST became available to me. When we were debating Spidey's rocket, I didn't know about the drawings.

  8. #33
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    ART ANDREWS said: View Post
    I totally understand where you are coming from. I don't want to go into great detail about it, but the stuff is being sold and is why I am not saying more. And no, it isn't being sold by me. While some of your comments are dead on, it isn't the case in this instance. It is more of a business thing for the person who owns it. I am only sharing what I know (which I literally found out about this last week, so it isn't something I have been sitting on) in an effort to help this search. While we see a lot of "I know but can't tell you" in the prop community, I think you will have to admit, that there is very little of it here at TDH.
    Very cool and I am glad you didn't take it personal. I appreciate the explanation and I understand it. You just did what the majority of prop hounds don't do. You took the time to address it instead of saying "just trust me, even though I can't tell you". You gave an explanation of your stance. Any mind of reason would give you the respect for that and let it be.

    While for the most part, the TDH does not suffer from the vanity of nondisclosure, I am glad this thread on the rocket has remained civil and people are being open, not asking for blind faith followed by a white wash.

  9. #34
    never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    depending on the resolution and settings etc. if there isn't enough information the processor in the camera will sometimes fudge things, it can also happen in the compression process taking the raw info and converting it to JPG.

  10. #35
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Count Dookie said: View Post
    What, the copper part? Nah, we stared at this picture a few weeks ago. The base copper still looks like plating to me. If it was plastic I'd expect the base copper color to have as much peeling as the clear coat, or at least some obvious gouges and scratches down to the base material (more red color).

    EDIT: I'm still not convinced. That aluminum reflective property with scratches is too authentic looking to me. I still say that's machined.
    I am not making definitive statements, just saying what I believe to be true. I agree that the aluminum seems very convincing, but the scratches and dings along the back show something that, to me, don't look like what I would expect to see from scratched or dinged aluminum. Also, I feel confident the base of the "copper" piece is the read plastic we have come to know and love. I just see it in too many places. I have gone back and looked at the MoM photos and where it is scratched and scraped... nothing but copper, leading me to believe that one was actual metal.

  11. #36
    SEEKER's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    never_ending_fett said: View Post
    depending on the resolution and settings etc. if there isn't enough information the processor in the camera will sometimes fudge things, it can also happen in the compression process taking the raw info and converting it to JPG.

    ohhh - Gotmaul is gonna take that personal. You're saying that he doesn't know how to use his high end camera.

    Just kidding. Yes camera's settings always play a huge roll on picture quality.

    And as far as keeping things or information to yourself. The best thing to do, if you have informationa, and you can't talk about or show images...

    DONT TALK ABOUT IT!


  12. #37

    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Looking analytically here, the holes do not match up on any of these model kits. The Fett missile (or whatever we want to call it) has 3 rows of holes that are in line with each other, and no quite as narrow. All these ones seem to offset a bit, and are longer/narrower. This is just brainstorming really, because if this part was intended to be used and finally just inspired a custom piece it wouldn't really matter. Just some thoughts to consider while researching.

  13. #38
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    SEEKER said: View Post
    ohhh - Gotmaul is gonna take that personal. You're saying that he doesn't know how to use his high end camera.

    Just kidding. Yes camera's settings always play a huge roll on picture quality.

    And as far as keeping things or information to yourself. The best thing to do, if you have informationa, and you can't talk about or show images...

    DONT TALK ABOUT IT!

    AMEN! thank you brother.

  14. #39
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Count Dookie,

    To what do you attribute the red base color that appears to be UNDER the copper color in the circled areas? I am saying the red plastic because I don't know what else it would be, but I am totally open to other theories!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rocket_tip2-jpg  

  15. #40
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Here is a similar effect happening on Leia's bikini.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails leias_bikini-jpg  

  16. #41
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Interesting Art. Is that a resin they used back then?

  17. #42
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    I don't know. I wish I knew what the actual material was... all I know is that it is some type of semi flexible (and obviously moldable) plastic. So far we know the rotJ stunt cod, the stunt helmet and the leia bikini were made from it. Now I believe the rocket tip on the AoSW/C4 rocket was also made from it. That is all I have on it.

  18. #43
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    Knowing that touring suits for displays are often interchanged, the rocket pic from C4 could be an ESB production rocket? Or is that a Captain Obvious statement?

  19. #44
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    I am not sure I completely follow you. From what I have seen, we never see the red plastic before RotJ, so IF that is red plastic, then I would think it would be RotJ era, probably made specifically for the stunt scenes.

    As far as ESB "production" for the most part, all of the Fett costumes were made at roughly the same time, and have just been reused and refitted. My thought would be that the rocket from MoM (which to me appears to be all metal) is more likely a candidate for the ESB rocket than the C4/AoSW rocket. That is just my thoughts though, not fact.

  20. #45
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    ART ANDREWS said: View Post
    Count Dookie,

    To what do you attribute the red base color that appears to be UNDER the copper color in the circled areas? I am saying the red plastic because I don't know what else it would be, but I am totally open to other theories!
    Good thread so far... lots of cool info being shared.

    and Art after speaking with my machinest, Both of them, I got the opinion from them that what you are seeing (the discoloration) is simply the Lacquer chipping off...which would make sense as a finishing technique and would explain the non-corrosion IF indeed it is copper.

    And I have to agree with Dookie, Machined.

  21. #46

    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    I'm not of the opinion that the missile is at all plastic, nor do I subscribe to the theory that the front is copper. It may be that the original design was made with a plastic part or two (or the entire thing) and it did indeed keep breaking; it's probably a worthwhile exercise to see if anyone can find anything definitive. Regardless, since Art has seen the machinist drawing, I would speculate that the missile is entirely metal (aluminum)now.

    I don't know if it's already been discussed, but is it possible the red we are seeing is just a primer that was used before the actual paint was applied?? In my dealings with paints, primers tend to 'stay' on material much longer than the paints that are applied over them. I'm not sure how involved the wardrobe and special effects personnel would be with proper painting techniques (production processes tend to be sloppy), but I haven't seen any resin or vac formed production pieces made with red material. Usually it's cheap milky-offwhite resin and white/black for the vac formed pieces...again to reduce costs.

  22. #47

    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    ART ANDREWS said: View Post
    Count Dookie,

    To what do you attribute the red base color that appears to be UNDER the copper color in the circled areas? I am saying the red plastic because I don't know what else it would be, but I am totally open to other theories!
    Sorry, it still looks like tarnished copper to me. Given the relatively similar color temperature and flash on the two pics you provided, I'd really expect those peeling areas to look much darker. The resin on the Leia bikini looks light to me maybe because most of the surfaces are facing the flash and the object is thin. Quick sketch attached:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails resin-vs-copper-jpg  

  23. #48
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    ART ANDREWS said: View Post
    I am not sure I completely follow you. From what I have seen, we never see the red plastic before RotJ, so IF that is red plastic, then I would think it would be RotJ era, probably made specifically for the stunt scenes.

    As far as ESB "production" for the most part, all of the Fett costumes were made at roughly the same time, and have just been reused and refitted. My thought would be that the rocket from MoM (which to me appears to be all metal) is more likely a candidate for the ESB rocket than the C4/AoSW rocket. That is just my thoughts though, not fact.
    I made an error in my post. I was wondernig if the missle with the possible red plastic/etc was screen used or a tour model only.

  24. #49
    Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    bobasfett said: View Post
    I'm not of the opinion that the missile is at all plastic, nor do I subscribe to the theory that the front is copper. It may be that the original design was made with a plastic part or two (or the entire thing) and it did indeed keep breaking; it's probably a worthwhile exercise to see if anyone can find anything definitive. Regardless, since Art has seen the machinist drawing, I would speculate that the missile is entirely metal (aluminum)now.

    I don't know if it's already been discussed, but is it possible the red we are seeing is just a primer that was used before the actual paint was applied?? In my dealings with paints, primers tend to 'stay' on material much longer than the paints that are applied over them. I'm not sure how involved the wardrobe and special effects personnel would be with proper painting techniques (production processes tend to be sloppy), but I haven't seen any resin or vac formed production pieces made with red material. Usually it's cheap milky-offwhite resin and white/black for the vac formed pieces...again to reduce costs.
    Some really good thoughts and coming from someone with your experience, greatly appreciated. I am going to try to do some comparisons of the MoM rocket to the AoSW/CIV rocket a little later because in my opinion, they are totally different. Different material, different paint, different weathering.

    You also may have a good point about a primer... Maybe it is primer. I certainly can't be sure.

    However, in regard to there being no production used pieces made of the red material... there are. I don't know how else to say it. I will be glad to post pics if needed. The stunt helmets are red. There is even someone in the SU community who owns an unfinished one, and it is red too. The leia bikini is red. And thanks to recent photos, we see that the cod from Boba's stunt scene is also red. So while I would agree that usually, red wouldn't be used... for whatever reason, in RotJ, they seemed to have a lot of it to throw around.

  25. #50

    Re: FOUND PART ? Gauntlet missile

    As far as the photo distortion in color. Its true that the CCD is the "retina" of the camera, like the film in a traditional camera. However that's not where the "guessing" or distortion happens. The distortion happens in the conversion to digital format. Like as N-E-Fett said, if the file goes to JPEG, you will get "guessing" as that is the very nature of JPEG compression. it averages all the surrounding pixel colors, and drops out the ones within a certain tolerance. That how it gets the file size reduction-by throwing out information. However, if your photos are shot in RAW mode, your file will include ALL the information the CCD sees. the conversion process to TIFF is a lossless format. I know this is a bit off topic, but relavent to the discussion at large.

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