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  1. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Sep 25, 2008, 12:53 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #26

    Quote never_ending_fett said: View Post
    It was the 70's everything came in strange colors, so i'm thinking red adding machine keys.
    We ended up using Mac keys instead of adding machine keys for the JB Project... once you painted them silver, with no primer, the silver rubbed off exactly like the MOM pics and exposed the white edges....but I might agree that the one or two keys used may have been Red to start....the rest def white or gray.
  2. Oddball Fett's Avatar
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    Sep 26, 2008, 7:09 AM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #27

    Just thinking, in the actual ESB movie, there doesn't seem to be the lone grey stud that attatched the cape in the Officialpics. Anyone agree? Would that make those pics kinda like the last final photo check of the suit they did before filming? Therefore any further differences between those pics and the movie would be very minor.

    Just curious, but what colour are the studs in ROJ? I've been paying attention to the ESB suit more (since that's what I'll be attempting to paint). Are they grey/silver?
  3. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 26, 2008, 7:35 AM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #28

    They are silver/grey on the ROTJ
  4. Shinobi_Fett's Avatar
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    Sep 26, 2008, 2:41 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #29

    Quote Spideyfett said: View Post
    We ended up using Mac keys

    Ahhhhhh! The PAIN!!!! You mutilated a Mac keyboard?

    Just kidding. Anyway, I recently noticed the red on the top of the studs too. I always assumed they were silver on ESB, but they look white from the new pics. the question is which ones are red topped, becuase they do not ALL look like they are red on top
  5. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 26, 2008, 3:07 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #30

    It looks to me and I think this has been mentioned already, but there is only 1 red topped stud and it moves locations from shot to shot. My guess and only a guess is that the red one may have ORIGINALLY been intended to signify something, most likely a longer bolt to be used for the cape. But maybe it didn't make a big enough difference to bother and got moved around each time they bolted Jeremy into the costume.

    Back to the original question at hand, I still say they are silver in those shots. If you want to argue that they are white simply because they look white in the pics and stills you could just as easily say that the color of the scratches on the helmet is white because they look white in the same pics and stills. I may be wrong and that's fine I'm making a ROTJ:SE anyway so it's not like I have to change anything if I am wrong LOL. It just doesn't seem to make any sense that they would be white, except for the white details on the gauntlets and the jet pack, maybe they were white to match those areas...now I'm starting to convense myself that it could make sense to be white, I don't know.

    Great topic either way. Thanks for bringing it up Spidey! Oh what's with the "unseen" reference material you speak of?
  6. Jango's kid's Avatar
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    Sep 26, 2008, 7:13 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #31

    Hmmm...now that you mention it, they do kinda look white to me!!!!! My question is, why the heck do they have an all grey one on there???
  7. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Sep 27, 2008, 11:04 AM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #32

    Quote never_ending_fett said: View Post
    Back to the original question at hand, I still say they are silver in those shots. If you want to argue that they are white simply because they look white in the pics and stills you could just as easily say that the color of the scratches on the helmet is white because they look white in the same pics and stills. I may be wrong and that's fine I'm making a ROTJ:SE anyway so it's not like I have to change anything if I am wrong LOL. It just doesn't seem to make any sense that they would be white, except for the white details on the gauntlets and the jet pack, maybe they were white to match those areas...now I'm starting to convense myself that it could make sense to be white, I don't know.

    Great topic either way. Thanks for bringing it up Spidey! Oh what's with the "unseen" reference material you speak of?
    You can probably look at it both ways..... I guess my question would be, Why did you/everyone assume they were silver to begin with???....maybe cause ROTJ studs are? or maybe cause the Prepro#2 studs are silver??..either way I think over all it was just "assumed" and never really discussed..
    I still say white...

    And in terms of unseen pics, that's with any Star Wars Character....there are plenty of pictures that have yet to be seen....unfortunate. But LFL is not obligated to release Every shot ever taken, yet it doesn't mean they haven't been seen...Although us Fett heads might want to see all of them.

    And yeah, I agree...pretty good thread so far huh?
    Last edited by Spideyfett; Sep 29, 2008 at 10:35 AM.
  8. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 27, 2008, 1:53 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #33

    That's a good question, and you definately pose a good argument for them being white. How long have you thought they were white?

    Here's a question for you though, Since they were white for the supertrooper, why would they have painted them silver for the prepro then repaint them white for ESB only to paint them silver again for ROTJ. Assuming it's the same set wouldn't all those layers show through on that close up shot. I'm sure they would have had more than one set of them from all the supertroopers, but it makes for a good argument against them being white anyway.

    Best topic I've been involved with for awhile LOL
  9. DL44 Blaster's Avatar
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    Sep 27, 2008, 4:30 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #34

    After keeping up with the discussion and all the thoughts for and against them being white on the ESB, plus my own thoughts, it just seems if nothing else that it makes sense in logistical terms that they would be silver. As was mentioned for them to paint them back and forth between white/silver/white/silver from the Supertrooper - ROTJ it seems "unlikely".....that's the key word. The likelihood of it happening doesn't mean it didn't (painting them back and forth) just more "unlikely" that it did. ....does that make sense for an argument for silver on ESB or what

    Silver on ESB is where I stand......

    Steve
  10. Sep 27, 2008, 5:40 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #35

    so if thoes are white what color is ROTJ shoulder studs
  11. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 27, 2008, 7:47 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #36

    Quote Son of the Baptist said: View Post
    so if thoes are white what color is ROTJ shoulder studs
    silver
  12. Sixxgunn13's Avatar
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    Sep 28, 2008, 9:40 AM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #37

    SF,
    Great question...
    I think a lot of ppl don't realize that if you really look. the ESB has a certan number of colors in total and the seem to stick to those ones.

    For example the helmet and Jet Pack...
    Each pretty much has the same colors.
    Green,Red,Yellow,White,Black Silver.

    so I don't think the idea of white studs is too far fetched.

    I'm almost done my suit sooooo, I'll leave my Mac keys white.. (w/a red top)

    I can always paint'em if I don't like it... accuracy is what all Fett-head's strive for anyways.

    Sixx
    Last edited by Sixxgunn13; Sep 29, 2008 at 7:35 PM.
  13. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Sep 29, 2008, 11:14 AM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #38

    Quote DL44 Blaster said: View Post
    After keeping up with the discussion and all the thoughts for and against them being white on the ESB, plus my own thoughts, it just seems if nothing else that it makes sense in logistical terms that they would be silver. As was mentioned for them to paint them back and forth between white/silver/white/silver from the Supertrooper - ROTJ it seems "unlikely".....that's the key word. The likelihood of it happening doesn't mean it didn't (painting them back and forth) just more "unlikely" that it did. ....does that make sense for an argument for silver on ESB or what
    You bring up a good point Steve..and I think that's part of the issue... Art can probably explain it better, but from what I understand the Supertrooper came first (white shoulder studs) ....that we know.
    Here's the tricky part, and something that most of you might not be on board with... There were more than one suit being produced AT THE SAME TIME once the Supertrooper concept was abandoned.... assuming that the Prepro #1 and #2 are the same suit is incorrect. PrePro #1; #3 and ESB are of the same suit (white shoulder studs). Pre Pro#2 and ROTJ are both the same as well, except they tried to match Boba to the Prepro#2 ref material (Silver studs) hense the repaint for Jedi......(also keep in mind that there are two Artists that painted the helmets too, hense the Sandy helmets prepro#2 and ROTJ, and Joe Johnston for ESB.)
    That may be the simplest way of putting it but I think grouping them like that and knowing that there wasn't just one suit is probably an important part that's not being mentioned. So there really wasn't any going back and forth of repainting studs, until ROTJ...

    Art feel free to comment if I'm off...I'm sure I'm not entirely correct..but more than one suit thing was my point.
    Last edited by Spideyfett; Sep 29, 2008 at 11:49 AM.
  14. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 12:00 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #39

    Do we have good enough shots of prepro 1 and 3 to determine if the studs are silver or white? I don't remember seeing any. Do we know for sure that the same suit was repainted in that lineage of for the sake of argument supertrooper 1 -> prepro 1 -> prepro 3 -> ESB. There was what, 6 supertroopers to start with?

    Like I said, I love history lessons, that's half the reason I'm arguing it, to learn something!
  15. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 12:05 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #40

    Alex,

    You pretty much said exactly what I would have said. There were 6 complete suits and the parts for the suits were never well defined and STILL aren't well defined. Pieces have floated back and forth from suit to suit over the years as well as during development. We often make broad sweeping statements like "The first supertrooper became the PP1 which became the PP3, which became the ESB Hero." While this statement is true in a broad and general sense, it may not be true for every single piece of the suit.

    One of the themes we have come back to again and again and again over the years is that because we microanalize the details of the suits we tend to create these extravagent explanations for why certain things are done a certain way. However, the more we have learned the more we have come to find that usually whatever is the simplest, cheapest, and quickest answer is usually the correct answer.

    In regard to the whole repainting of the shoulder studs, as Alex pointed out, there had to be at LEAST 6 sets of studs... meaning at minimum 32 studs. From what we have seen different suits were painted at different times, by different people, and a lot of the pieces were later repainted for other scenes/movies. It is unlikely that there was a conscious decision to change the colors of the studs as much as it just happened during the process.

    Are the ESB studs white? I don't know, but I could easily buy it. The supertrooper studs were a gloss white, just like the rest of the suit and there is no reason why some of the studs might not have made it into ESB without being repainted. The PP1 appear to be silver or light grey. The PP2 seem to be silver painted over white. The PP3 appears to have one dark grey stud and the rest appear to be either white or silver, with one having the red top. As you can see... they are just all over the place.

    As for the ESB studs... my personal opinion is that it changes... I know.. you didn't want to hear that, but in some scenes, I feel like I see the same silver/white mottling that is seen on the PP2, especially when Fett is in Slave 1. Just looks like they are silver and some of it has rubbed off on the edges. In a lot of scenes it is unfair to judge because of the harsh lighting coming from overhead and blowing out the studs, making them appear white. However, there are a few pics (mostly publicity photos) where they truly do appear to be solid white. Very very hard to say and I am not definitively convinced one way or another. I know that isn't what you guys wanted to hear, but I just don't have a solid answer... of course the answer could be that they changed throughout production and they may have simply grabbed up different studs at different times... who knows.
  16. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 12:13 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #41

    Quote slave1pilot said: View Post
    Has it been "officialized" that they were keys?
    Not in my opinion. While they may have been cast from keys, I think it is pretty clear that they are castings and not the keys themselves.
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  17. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 12:16 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #42

    I see the dark grey stud in pics 2 and 3 spidey posted originally, but not in any of the others so I would definately buy that they used which ever ones were handy at the time with no reason at all. Not at all disapointed with your answer Art, thanks for throwing in your input.
  18. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 12:17 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #43

    Another shot, showing a chip that helps one see the paint layers.
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  19. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 12:18 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #44

    Quote ART ANDREWS said: View Post
    Not in my opinion. While they may have been cast from keys, I think it is pretty clear that they are castings and not the keys themselves.
    on the one holding down the cape you can really see the rough edge suggesting that it was a casting, nice shot, I'm not sure if I've seen that one before or at least never payed close enough attention to it. Is that from CIV?
  20. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Sep 29, 2008, 12:37 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #45

    WOW 32 studs???? wow.... begining to think that continuity wasn't much of a Priorty back then when dealing with Fett...

    Thanks Art for clarifying... bout time...really good info. though.

    (sending Jeremy a new set of WHITE STUDS as we speak)
  21. Community Founder Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 1:45 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #46

    Quote never_ending_fett said: View Post
    on the one holding down the cape you can really see the rough edge suggesting that it was a casting, nice shot, I'm not sure if I've seen that one before or at least never payed close enough attention to it. Is that from CIV?
    Nope. That is from MoM.
  22. DL44 Blaster's Avatar
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    Sep 29, 2008, 7:20 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #47

    Cool stuff Art! I was being too generalized in my Supertrooper - ROTJ....it's kinda where I was headed. I guess I never really thought about the smorgasboard of parts that were available to make the ESB suit by the time production was going on. The darker gray stud and the red topped right stud in the Lando/Trooper/Boba/Vader/Lobot scene really do indicate that was the case in the "grab bag" that was Fett back then.

    With the recent pics posted up by Alex, it gives hope to many more ESB discoveries being made.

    ......drat....now with the new pics and the studs in question, I may be onto a repaint sooner than I expected....at least paint is cheap.

    Viva' la' ESB!!!
    Steve
  23. BOBA PHAT's Avatar
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    Sep 30, 2008, 11:24 AM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #48

    I originally wasn't even going to touch on this thread. It's an interesting theory, but in the end it's one that can never be proven without a doubt.

    First I want to applaud Alex for what he's doing. We all need to look at Fett with fresh eyes. We all have our assumptions of what we think is going on with ESB; some ideas that have carried over from other versions of the suit, and some that have entered our subconscious from replica suits made over the years. We need to throw all that out the window to really figure out this version of the suit.

    I agree that we should not just assume that the studs are silver. But let's not just assume that they are white because they look white in pictures. I've been doing a lot of color research on ESB, and picture are VERY misleading. Of the few known colors on the suit, they are several shades darker in real life than in pictures or stills.

    In looking at all the pictures again with this thread in mind, I really have no answers. They could be white, silver, or even light grey. But the one thing that jumps out at me is that the shoulder studs appear flat. I can't seem to find any picture that shows them reflecting any kind of light. That to me opens up the option that they could be painted silver or aluminum, but just with a flat coat.

    Since the real costume parts are either repainted, lost, or hidden away in the archives, the only way to figure out this puzzler is with a lot of tests. Shoulder studs painted in every possible variation, photographed under bright studio lights. But even then there might not be a definitive answer.

    Again, great thread! I love the challenge of trying to figure out ESB Fett. And to close, here's my favorite quote about Fett from Joe Johnston:

    "I painted Boba's outfit and tried to make it look like it was made of different pieces of armor. It was a symmetrical design, but I painted it in such a way that it looked like he had scavenged parts and had done some personalizing of his costume; he had little trophies hanging from his belt, and he had little braids of hair, almost like a collection of scalps"

    -Ryan
  24. Spideyfett is offline Spideyfett
    Sep 30, 2008, 11:55 AM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #49

    Quote BOBA PHAT said: View Post
    I originally wasn't even going to touch on this thread. It's an interesting theory, but in the end it's one that can never be proven without a doubt.

    First I want to applaud Alex for what he's doing. We all need to look at Fett with fresh eyes. We all have our assumptions of what we think is going on with ESB; some ideas that have carried over from other versions of the suit, and some that have entered our subconscious from replica suits made over the years. We need to throw all that out the window to really figure out this version of the suit.

    I agree that we should not just assume that the studs are silver. But let's not just assume that they are white because they look white in pictures. I've been doing a lot of color research on ESB, and picture are VERY misleading. Of the few known colors on the suit, they are several shades darker in real life than in pictures or stills.

    In looking at all the pictures again with this thread in mind, I really have no answers. They could be white, silver, or even light grey. But the one thing that jumps out at me is that the shoulder studs appear flat. I can't seem to find any picture that shows them reflecting any kind of light. That to me opens up the option that they could be painted silver or aluminum, but just with a flat coat.

    Since the real costume parts are either repainted, lost, or hidden away in the archives, the only way to figure out this puzzler is with a lot of tests. Shoulder studs painted in every possible variation, photographed under bright studio lights. But even then there might not be a definitive answer.

    Again, great thread! I love the challenge of trying to figure out ESB Fett. And to close, here's my favorite quote about Fett from Joe Johnston:

    "I painted Boba's outfit and tried to make it look like it was made of different pieces of armor. It was a symmetrical design, but I painted it in such a way that it looked like he had scavenged parts and had done some personalizing of his costume; he had little trophies hanging from his belt, and he had little braids of hair, almost like a collection of scalps"

    -Ryan
    Great post Ryan..:thumbup...very well said...glad you did post.

    And thats exactly what I'm trying to do....is to figure this costume out...ROTJ has all the reference in the world, but ESB until now is just not on the same level in terms reference....but I think we can change that with some of the photos that have been released and Facts we do know about.

    I think you are 100% right on point, you can't say for an absolute fact that they are silver or white based on photos.... it's just impossible to do it that way.

    I think DL Blaster said it best...it was a "smorgasboard" of parts by the time Fett hit the screen for ESB.....and no one will ever really know for sure.


  25. never_ending_fett's Avatar
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    Sep 30, 2008, 12:08 PM - Re: ESB Shoulder Studs/ White? or Silver? #50

    Great posts! I agree 100% that at this point there's no way to know without a shadow of doubt that they were one color or another. Photos definately aren't the best tool to judge color accurately, especially without a greyscale/grey card reference. The costume was painted to look like scavenged parts, and in some ways it kinda was scavenged missmatched parts from the various versions, especially the ROTJ and more so in the SE.

    Where do we go from here?

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